How can anyone support abortion

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posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Teenage,

No birth control? I'm sorry, but anyone who gets pregnant because birth control is not availible to them must be living in a cave.


You'd think, wouldn't you -- except that the only birth control available without prescription (which means you see the doctor and start taking it two months before becoming sexually active) ... is condoms.

So you gotta wonder why guys don't keep condoms around when they think they're getting ready for sex.




posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
First off, what are you threatening me? Pretty lame.

Second, I don't know why you think that religion (which I have not used as a reason once, but you have) is the only reason to be against it. There are myraid places people get their morality, and this is a moral judgement.

I for one hope it's outlawed. Personally I am willing and ready to accept the result, and readily await the day my friend.


LOL, dude are you ignorant? First off, how was I threatening YOU? Are you a religious fundamentalist? I stated I am ready to defend our freedoms from religious fundamentalists of all kinds, and since they often use violence, that's how it must be defended. Are you saying I'm wrong? Is it only OK to fight back when it comes to ISLAMIC militants? As for your readily awaiting the day, you prove my point exactly, and I too am ready to defend our freedoms from religion "my friend".


P.S. Here's you NOT using religion as a reason:


Religion is the formula in which this society has been based.

Don't want religion used against you, then don't use it to rebut a point of view.



[edit on 17-8-2004 by 27jd]



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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I will do what ever I wish to my body and I expect everyone to do the same to theirs. Who am I or you or them to dictate how anyone should live their lives with their own bodies?



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
I read the bible and I see no teachings by Jesus ever mentioning abortion. The ten commandments say thou shalt not kill, but almost every religon exept satanism and islam say that. (satanism says dont get caught and Islam says only kill non muslims)


First of all, Satanism isn't even a REAL religion, the founder Anton Levay meant it as an alternative lifestyle, the Satan part they do not even take seriously, and in the Satanic Bible it clearly states killing for no reason is wrong, and it urges followers not to sacrifice animals or anything of the sort, it preaches though that you not love EVERYBODY because then no value is placed on love, it states to love deeply those who you love and hate your enemy, but it does not say to murder them. Islam is a religion of peace that often gets taken out of context by maniac fundamentalists who misinterpret or manipulate its teachings for their own cause. And in YOUR bible it states "thou shalt not kill", there is no small print stating it is OK if it is in a war or to punish a criminal does it? So you better get cracking on outlawing war, the death penalty, and any other form of killing. You've got a lot of work to do.



Whle some say it is no more than a "bundle of cells" That is only true for an amazingly short period of time. As medical Science, I, and many other posters have shown, far earlier than the 3rd month the fetus has a functioning brain, heart, lungs, nervous system, and by reacting to its environment has shown cogntive activity.



So then do we outlaw the eating of meat, cows, pigs, fish, etc. all think and breathe, but I forgot, that life is not the same as HUMAN life and they have no souls, right? I gaurantee those creatures do a lot more "thinking" than a fetus. I love how just because we are "smart" monkeys we think we are better than the rest of "gods" creations, and he allows us to kill them because we are more important. Human beings can be so ignorant.



If it thinks, how can you say it is not alive, and doesn't deserve the same basic unalienable rights as every other American.



The brain of a fetus is not used for thinking, its used to send signals to heart to beat, the fetus is not contemplating life or even aware it is alive until late in the term, and I too am against late term abortion, somebody should have made a decision long before that point.







[edit on 17-8-2004 by 27jd]



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 01:41 PM
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fact remains what even if physical life starts at conception as some people believe, a unborn child does not think duringthat period of time. Also, untill a specific time period, a fetus cannot live outside the womb and survive. They abort fetuses nowhere beyond that period, because if it could survive outside the womb, then its technically "Alive", otherwise, its just a sack of cells, a symbiote being living off of nutrients, and without that, it would die, hardly alive.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
LOL, dude are you ignorant? First off, how was I threatening YOU? Are you a religious fundamentalist?


Obviously not, and no I am not ignorant. One would have to be ignorant of something, not ignorant in general.


I stated I am ready to defend our freedoms from religious fundamentalists of all kinds, and since they often use violence, that's how it must be defended.


My whole point, is that you seem to liken anyone against abortion to that of a religious stance, if not a fundamentalist one. This is grossly untrue. Many speak from an emotional standpoint, which in this business is just as silly as the pro-choice folks doing the same.


Are you saying I'm wrong? Is it only OK to fight back when it comes to ISLAMIC militants? As for your readily awaiting the day, you prove my point exactly, and I too am ready to defend our freedoms from religion "my friend".


Again, because the stance is in line with a generally religious one, does not make it so. If abortion does become illegal (which I am hoping) I TRUELY hope it is for rational reasons, not a religious one.

P.S. Here's you NOT using religion as a reason:


Religion is the formula in which this society has been based.

Don't want religion used against you, then don't use it to rebut a point of view.


[edit on 17-8-2004 by 27jd]

Since you seem to like to try to use my words against me, please point out how those two sentences prove your point. The first one is based on the formulation of social culture stemming from Europe and the Catholic Empire. The second is because I don't use religious reasons to support my stance against abortion, and that I know most pro-choicers distain the religious excuse I decided to give you a tip. There are plenty of people who do use religion, don't give them an outlet you don't need.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
fact remains what even if physical life starts at conception as some people believe, a unborn child does not think duringthat period of time. Also, untill a specific time period, a fetus cannot live outside the womb and survive. They abort fetuses nowhere beyond that period, because if it could survive outside the womb, then its technically "Alive", otherwise, its just a sack of cells, a symbiote being living off of nutrients, and without that, it would die, hardly alive.


Yet somehow we define human vegetables as alive until their brain ceases to function. Should it not stand to reason that we should at least curtail abortion after the brain begins to work? Last time I checked it was well before the 3 month mark.



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 02:29 PM
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I will admit that I do not have time to read all this before I post but I can tell you why I am pro choice.

Religion may be fake and something man made up to keep sane and to feel like there is something more than a just being mass of matter that gained intelligence.

I was brought up christian and tend to beleive there may be a god and if there is a god then he may have sent his son as a messenger.

I do not feel however that it is fair for me to decide for other human beings what is morally right or wrong except of course if you try and harm me my friends,or family and to some extent my nation personally. I chose who I care for.

In my personal life I am completely against anyone ever aborting a baby that came from me. It has happend (another story). I did not have any choice or say in the woman's choice in doing this and to some extent I agree although I was completely against it happening.

We may be nothing more than a mass of matter that has accumilated itself into an intelligent being, so abortion may be nothing more than stoping one of the mass matter forms from maturing. I cannot prove it one way or the other so to each his own choice is how I prefer to live. Science comes very close to proving the mass of matter idea for those who care to be informed.

Further more stem cell research may sacrifice a few potential life forms, but has the probability of saving billions of future human beings lives and may well extend and improve all of our lives to some extent. "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one" (hehe star trekish?).

Potential life is not life. Untill it has a brain it cannot possibly even perceive itself.

As for partial birth abortion were the embryo has developed to a point were it can think or perceive its own life then no way should this be allowed. Some day science may be able to determine at what point this is.

I am pro choice and pro stem cell research. It is not right to enforce your own moral values on other people unless their choices, in someway, directly includes or effects your life (not just your ideal of morallity).

X



posted on Aug, 17 2004 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Obviously not, and no I am not ignorant. One would have to be ignorant of something, not ignorant in general.


Fine then, I was not referring to you being ignorant in general, but ignorant in assuming I was threatening you, which I was not unless you plan to force your morals on me with the threat of violence like so many anti-abortion advocates do (i.e. clinic bombers, etc.). Perhaps you read it wrong.



My whole point, is that you seem to liken anyone against abortion to that of a religious stance, if not a fundamentalist one. This is grossly untrue. Many speak from an emotional standpoint, which in this business is just as silly as the pro-choice folks doing the same.


Well, the majority of those opposed to abortion are opposing for religious reasons. Sorry if I misinterpreted your personal reasoning and lumped you with the fanatics. However, religious or emotional, a woman's body is her own, and it is nobody's business if she chooses to terminate the pregnancy inside HER body (of course excluding late term, in which her choice should've been made long before). Again, what if a female in your family was raped, would you force her to be reminded every day for 9 months? Would she love the child that was forced on her by a rapist? If you learned your father was some sicko who raped your mother, and you were a living reminder of that, how would you feel? Not to mention, like I stated, women would still get abortions, they would just have to go to Mexico, where business would be booming and the death rate of American women due to extremely poor practice would be as well. Do you say they deserve to die because they don't agree with YOUR moral values? When you say you hope it becomes illegal, you're in effect saying that.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Jonna
I will do what ever I wish to my body and I expect everyone to do the same to theirs. Who am I or you or them to dictate how anyone should live their lives with their own bodies?



Well said there.


Funny how the conservatives preach how they want full control over there lives yet still insist on trying to dictate what others can and cannot do.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:11 AM
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It's simple really MWM. If you're against abortion; don't have one.


If only people would let it be that simple...*sigh*



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by RedOctober90

Originally posted by Jonna
I will do what ever I wish to my body and I expect everyone to do the same to theirs. Who am I or you or them to dictate how anyone should live their lives with their own bodies?



Well said there.


Funny how the conservatives preach how they want full control over there lives yet still insist on trying to dictate what others can and cannot do.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by RedOctober90]


Tired tired tired. Funny how this is only good when you want it to be.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Tired tired tired. Funny how this is only good when you want it to be.


Please review my last response to you, and address the questions I posed to you, I'm interested to know your position in those instances.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 02:49 PM
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Hey wait a minute, I am a conservative, but as I posted earlier, and it was not even challenged in this thread, whether you are pro or anti abortion makes no difference relative to the fact that abortions are going to occur, period. It does not matter if abortion is legal/illegal, moral/immoral, right/wrong, either way, they will occur.

So the question is, do you want the abortion to occur in the back alleys of the world, in abandoned buildings, the back of vans in parking lots, or in open fields, with hooks and hangers??? OR do you want the abortion to occur within the confines of a medical facility prepared to do such an operation?

Answer THAT question!



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by smokenmirrors
Hey wait a minute, I am a conservative, but as I posted earlier, and it was not even challenged in this thread, whether you are pro or anti abortion makes no difference relative to the fact that abortions are going to occur, period. It does not matter if abortion is legal/illegal, moral/immoral, right/wrong, either way, they will occur.

So the question is, do you want the abortion to occur in the back alleys of the world, in abandoned buildings, the back of vans in parking lots, or in open fields, with hooks and hangers??? OR do you want the abortion to occur within the confines of a medical facility prepared to do such an operation?

Answer THAT question!


I've posed the same question, as well as others, nobody will answer.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 04:20 PM
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.
If there were a shortage of people I could see a logical reason for being anti-abortion. There are 6 billion and growing people on this planet. We have rather the opposite problem.

If this is too crass for you, request permission to be born in another Universe, where everything is namby pamby sweet. That ain't this Universe. If you want to live here learn to deal with the reality you live in. Don't expect other people to conform because of your inability to deal with reality. If you want to force people to have children they don't want, get a gun and force them, but don't EVER EVER EVER call it morality.
.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by slank
If you want to force people to have children they don't want, get a gun and force them, but don't EVER EVER EVER call it morality.
.


It's not called morality friend. I think everyone agrees that being responcible about the cause is better than being responcible about the effect.

That's the point. Libertarians are about personal choice and personal responcibility. Anyway, take a chill pill, you've got your way, don't bitch about people forcing anything until it happens. Until then, it is us being subjected to your morals.

As for the questions, I'll answer since most lack backbone.




Again, what if a female in your family was raped, would you force her to be reminded every day for 9 months?


As horrible as rape is, I'd have to say yes. Being that I think abortion a crime against humanity (which is my personal belief, so no need to argue that), I don't know of another crime that allows the victim to commit one scott free.


Would she love the child that was forced on her by a rapist?


That I don't know, it's up to the woman and how strong she is. I would recommend looking into adoption bing that babies are in demand.


If you learned your father was some sicko who raped your mother, and you were a living reminder of that, how would you feel?


I would feel hate towards my father. But I would give my mother the geratest respect for her strength and labor. I would work to repay her struggle.


Not to mention, like I stated, women would still get abortions, they would just have to go to Mexico, where business would be booming and the death rate of American women due to extremely poor practice would be as well. Do you say they deserve to die because they don't agree with YOUR moral values?


No, they don't. But on the other hand, no one is forcing them to gamble with their lives like that. If there were no other option I might agree, but there are other options. Whether they are hard or not is a different story. Life is hard, and sometimes we get the raw end of the deal. This is the exception, not the rule.

Problem is, is that your side likes to point out the negative as if it is the standard. There are two sides to every coin.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by RedOctober90

Originally posted by Jonna
I will do what ever I wish to my body and I expect everyone to do the same to theirs. Who am I or you or them to dictate how anyone should live their lives with their own bodies?



Well said there.


Funny how the conservatives preach how they want full control over there lives yet still insist on trying to dictate what others can and cannot do.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by RedOctober90]


Tired tired tired. Funny how this is only good when you want it to be.


Well it's true... and topics which concern the lives and deaths of people are not funny.

It's too true that the right-wingys never truly practice what they claim to be promoting. Not only conservatives are entitled to the "rights" they support.

Decisions should be made on whats best for the people as a whole.. not for a few religious/idealogical interest groups.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by RedOctober90]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 11:30 PM
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Fine, I am going to argue from both points of veiw, the religous and the not blinded by stupidity.

First one. I am religous, do as my religon says or I kill you. We have done it in the past, hell, my god has killed millions with plagues, fire, brimestone. In a country where it is illegal for the government to promote one religon over the other I want it to ban people from doing things my religon doesn't say anything about but still, want it banned because I don't like it.

Second one. Uh, it isn't my body. And if you don't want to get an abortion then don't get one. Like if you don't like CSI:MIAMI, don't watch it. Also, in this country you have freedom of religon and from religon. I don't want to hear about all mighty powerful invisable people that live in the clouds and live to be 900 or a flood and a boat with 2 of every animal which is genetically impossible and about how if yu don't do what the all mighty powerful invisable people say you get sent to a place wqith fire and other things even though the only proof you have is a book that has been edited by a corrupted society.



posted on Aug, 19 2004 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by smokenmirrors
Hey wait a minute, I am a conservative, but as I posted earlier, and it was not even challenged in this thread, whether you are pro or anti abortion makes no difference relative to the fact that abortions are going to occur, period. It does not matter if abortion is legal/illegal, moral/immoral, right/wrong, either way, they will occur.

So the question is, do you want the abortion to occur in the back alleys of the world, in abandoned buildings, the back of vans in parking lots, or in open fields, with hooks and hangers??? OR do you want the abortion to occur within the confines of a medical facility prepared to do such an operation?

Answer THAT question!



Smokenmirrors - lets extend your argument to its logical conclusion shall we? It makes no sense to outlaw something which will happen anyway, so it might as well be legal. Murder is illegal but it happens anyway so murder should be legal. Rape is illegal but it happens anyway so rape should be legal. Heroin use is illegal but people use heroin anyway, and by not having access to clean needles addicts put thier lives in danger, so heron should not only be legal, but state sponsored. Flying an airliner into a building is illegal, but since that happened it should be legal, and since the terrorists who flew the planes into the WTC died in the process we should equip all airliners with remote controls and mail them all to OBL.

Do you see the fallacy in your argument now? The fact that people will break a given law is no reason not to pass a law.
As to the old "its my body and I can do whatever I want with it" yes you can do whatever you want with YOUR body but the fetus has a body of its own.
What really surprises me is that everyone on this thread who is "pro-choice" is trying to argue the point based not on facts, but emotion and anti religous sentiments. And yet not one of the "pro-life" posters has even mentioned religon. We have mentioned medical science, the latest embryonic research, and science, and yet none of the "pro-choice" posters are willing to touch that. Why?

news.bbc.co.uk...

I have shown evdence that by the 8th week there is brain activity, that the fetus has alredy determined whether or not its right or left handed, the abillity to feel pain, hell the fetus even responds to music the mother is listening to. With such an overwhelming amount of evidence that the fetus is not only alive, but responding to the outside world how can anyone say it is no more than a sack of cells? Do petri dishes move in rythem to music? Do they feel pain ? Do they breath? Do thier hearts beat? Because a fetus does all this and science is still making more discoveries. And every discovery pushes back earlier and earlier the emergence of the same exact charicteristics we associate with life and use to determine the difference between life and death. I dont beleve that women who have abortons will go to hell. I dont beleve that women who have abortions are heartless, or that all or even most of them do it for convience, but I do beleve that every time a woman has an abortion she is comiitng murder. Most dont look at it that way because they have been told all the old lies, That its not murder because the fetus is not alive, that its only a potential life. But how can you sy that a living being with a beating heart, breathing lungs, thinking brain, who responds to music, is not alive? Just awnser that one question, and I challenge you to do it without mentioning God, or a womans right to her body. Just awnser that one question, given what we have learned about embryonic devolpment, and the charicteristics that a fetus by 8 weeks shows, how can you say that fetus is not alive?

[edit on 19-8-2004 by mwm1331]





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