How can anyone support abortion

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posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 06:08 AM
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from members.aol.com...

Since 1992, elective abortions can be banned after actual viability (c. 20-22 weeks), and pre-viability regulations only have to meet the new "undue burden" standard, meaning that a "compelling" state interest is not required so long as the law does not present a "substantial obstacle" to obtaining an abortion.

reread the devolpment by the end of the first trimester.
Also under U.S. federal law by the time the fetus can "dance" it is still a month away from safety.

from www.2bparent.com...
Second Trimester of pregnancy
Fetal Development
The head is developing more actively than the rest of the body: the eyes, mouth, nose, and ears are almost completely formed, creating a well-defined face. Her eyes are already sensible to light. She has acquired new abilities, like the capacity to react to music and to loud noises.
By fifth month, your baby exercises her senses of touch and movement. By now, she moves her arms and legs strongly enough to be perceived by mom. Her fingers have become more agile and move freely. As her ability to perceive through her skin sharpens, the fetus explores its aquatic universe, developing coordination and strength.
After the fifth month, something extraordinary occurs: she can actually begin to hear! She hears the sounds coming from your body: your voice, and the voices of other people who are speaking close. She can also hear environmental sounds. Rhythmic music calms her and strident sounds excite her.
She hears and learns. Memory and the ability to react to stimuli are already present.




posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 06:18 AM
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So armed now with the facts lets review
week 7 Fetus has distinct blood type from mother. (no organism on eath has two blood types thus refuting that the fetus is a "part of the womans body")

week 8 fetus begins communicating with surroundings. (interaction with and response to surroundings is one of the "litmus tests" of life)
Also measurable brain waves are present.

week 12 the embryo has the ability to experience pain, cry, and the brain is fully formed

week 20 - the fetus can hear and respond to sound rythmic sounds calm the child and strident sounds alarm the child
weeks 20-22 - fetus is finally (in most cases) protected from death under law.

Is it a part of a womans body? No.
Is its brain fully formed by the 12 week? Yes
Can it "dance" before its life is protected by the law? usually.

So I will ask again, if a fully formed brain, and the abillity to respond and interact with its surroundings is not proof of life then why not?


[edit on 20-8-2004 by mwm1331]



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 07:36 AM
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Abortion has always been a tough call for me and I guess the rest of the country too.

While I PERSONALLY see it pretty much the same as murder, sometime it is needed IMO for the health of the mother or when the child will be grossly deformed, etc.

But on the other hand you have the personal freedom of the woman to choose to be a mother or not, which yall might not have noticed but I am rather big on personal freedom


For me its not as much a matter of should it be legal or not as to where do you draw the line? One month? Six months? How about their first Birthday? Correct me if I am wrong but dosent Birth Control Pills just Wash out the new fetus by bringing on a period anyhow? Wouldnt this be Abortion?

But the bottom line for me I guess is this is a HIGHLY personal matter that I do not trust the Government to be in Charge of. Me and my wife had to face this decision at one time, a doctor told us our child would be born retarded and deformed. After several days of heart-wrenching and soul-searching we decided to keep the child. Today he is an honor-roll student and a Martial artist that has to be seen to be believed.

He is not retarded but looks just like me so grossly deformed could be an arguement.......LOL

But seriously I would NOT have wanted the Government making this decision for us, I think ultimitly the desision should rest with the couple, for they are the ones that will have to live with it.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 07:39 AM
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All I can say is, can you imagine a world where a mother is forced to have a child? This is insane. A women has a right to her own body, no man can tell a women to have a child.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 08:01 AM
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The kicker there is that we all want all our rights without having to deal with the responsibilities that come with them. I have the right to fornicate and conceive a child without worrying about the responsibility of being its parent and its all paid for by the pain and torture of an innocent baby that will never get the chance I got. Nice, real nice.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is not an issue with telling a woman what to do with her body, this is an issue of responsibility by parents. Look, if a child is beaten by its parents, the state intervines and I think we can all agree they should. Now, the state also intervines if a child isn't given the proper care. So, whats the difference? If you neglect a child, you aren't harming it (in theory) and no one should be made to force you to take care of another individual if you do not wish. After all, its your life.

Look, I'm not a big proponent of abortion laws because frankly, I think its terrible that its an issue to begin with. We as the intellectual people we claim to be whom have realized (supposedly) the importance of life to the point we hold people responsible for cruelty toward animals and even trees, need to put that same respect for life toward the weak and innocent of our own species as well. Whether YOU want to acknowledge it or not, both people involved in the conception of a child are responsible for said child and its welfare from that moment forward. As it is with nature, as the most liberal of us claim we are apart of, so is it with us.

To march one day against the slaughter of an animal and the next day for the slaughter of our own offspring is hypocrisy, pure and simple. I'll agree with you libs about one thing, with a mind set such as this, mankind may just be the downfall of earth.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 08:12 AM
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Amuk I was hpoing to see you on this thread as we share many views. I too am a big believer in personal freedom, However I feel that the way abortion laws are currently written we are denying the personal freedoms of the unborn. I agree that it is very hard to draw the line however it is also somethng whch I feel we must do, and that that line be based not on emotion, or convention, but upon hard science.
Understand I am not advocating takeing the rghts away from anyone, rather I am advocating extending the rights of Americans to include an adittional group. At some point the fetus changes from being a "cluster of cells" to a human being. While that point may not be as clearcut as some (myself included) would like, there is a need to make that delineation. Birth is, I feel, too arbitrary a point at which to grant that child the rights assocated with citizen status.
What concerns me is that those in favor of abortion seem unwilling to admit that the unborn child has the same rights as the mother does.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by earthtone
A women has a right to her own body, no man can tell a women to have a child.


Earthtone did you even read my post? Can you please expain how a seperate organism with a fully formed brain and a distinct blood type is a "part of a womans body"?



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331


Earthtone did you even read my post?


Am I not allowed to leave my own comments? That is how I feel. How can you say that a baby is a serperate organism? It is attatched to the mother, she keeps the growing organism alive.

So would you want every female who gets pregnant to be forced to have a child regardless of what she feels/ has been through? I can agree that the descision has to made at a very very early stage.

Edit: anyway I wasn't directing my comments at you at all, just commenting.

[edit on 20/8/2004 by earthtone]



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 08:43 AM
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Earthtone I can say withut resorting to opinion that the fetus is not a part of the mother by statng facts.
1) the fetus has a distinct and seperate blood type. As no organism has ever been observed that has two distinct blood types It is a fact that the child is a seperate organism. Though the fetus is dependent on the mother that does not make it a part of the mothe



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 09:35 AM
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The answer has to lie somewhere between forcing a mother to have a child reguardless of its effect on the mothers health and safety or whither the baby is to have a chance at living life as more than a vegatible and abortion past the time they could live on there own.

This is another issue where the extremes seem to fuel BOTH sides, the true issue seems to be more just WHERE does it become murder? I can honestly say I dont know and I doubt it will ever be settled to everyones satisfaction.

This issue reminds me in a way of the religious groups that refuse to allow their children medical treatment in that both hover right on the edge of personal liberty and harming an innocent person.

I myself will have to go with a womans right not because I believe that it is the correct choice but because I believe the Government forcing a woman to have a child reguardless of the costs is the wrong choice.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 11:00 AM
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I don't think anyone is asserting that the government force a woman to have a child if she does not wish, merely outlaw the murder of a being already in existence. There is a difference. Its all a question of personal responsibility on the part of BOTH parents. If we men would realize and accept our role and responsibility, I would venture to say this would be a non-issue except for unfortunate medical issues to which I say, the doctor's input is key.

Most women having abortions are doing so because they are forced to choose between raising the child alone and in poverty and not subjecting it to that at all. Thats the shame. I don't know of any woman who, provided with support of the other parent , would even think of doing this. This is not an issue to be solved in a courtroom. This is an issue to be solved by the true culprits take responsibility for their actions. The blood a guilt may be on the mother's hands in the eyes of many but not in mine. We are all put here for something more than our goody, goody, feel good lifestyle and belive me, thats not going to last. If you don't want to be a dad, wear a condom or obstain. Easy as that. But I can tell you from first hand experience, you cannot understand how important you are until you undertake that responsibility. Of course, that takes putting the welfare of someone else above yourself..something to which many cannot do.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by astrocreep
I don't know of any woman who, provided with support of the other parent , would even think of doing this.


My ex-girlfriend did. I told her I would support the child, she still didn't want to carry the child. I had no right to force her.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 02:28 PM
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I've been pretty unpopular after stating my views on this issue before outside of here, but here it is.

I think abortion should be legal but highly restricted, meaning, within the two month mark. Assuming the morning-after pill is available OTC, it should be used as a precaution after unprotected sex.

Since the woman is the one who can get pregnant, the woman should take full responsibility for protection against it. Aside from the pill, there is the sponge, foam and IUD. It would be nice if the male would take some responsibility as well considering that the only thing a woman can do is prevent pregnancy, not STD transmission. A condom is necessary for that.

In order for this to happen, though, females need to be taught at a VERY early age about sex and protection. Not just the nuts and bolts of it, but the situational hazards. They must have the self-confidence and self-esteem needed to be able to say no to very convincing sweet talk from boys and men. They need to consider their body their property to do with as they please BEFORE they are in a position to defend their right to an abortion. They must be informed and prepared, and sadly much of the time they are not. Males must be educated at a VERY early age to respect the process as much as the females should, and should be conscious of the downsides of unwanted pregnancy and child support.

This issue is a lot like the prison/crime issue. Build more prisons or address the social problems that lead to the need for them? Support abortion or address the social problems that lead to the need and desire for them? I hate to see the "pay the price" or "suffer the consequences" arguments because many times the males suffer NO consequences and have no responsibility for illegitimate children unless a court decides to hit them for support. I think it's a shame for a child to be a punishment. I can't imagine using someone else's life as punishment for a mistake made in mine. "You did it, so you take responsibility for it". Sounds harsh and doesn't give much hope that this Punishment Baby will be a source of joy and happiness or the recipient of such. As for adoption, there seem to be an awful lot of kids out there who need families who are not getting adopted. So where are all the people who want children? If that were the case the orphanages would be empty. And I honestly don't see the benefit of a legion of unwed teenage mothers walking the earth. Just more people to go uneducated and begin a whole new cycle of poverty and low-rung, low self-esteem living.

At this point abortion is a "necessary evil" until the societal ills that make it necessary are addressed.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by earthtone
All I can say is, can you imagine a world where a mother is forced to have a child? This is insane. A women has a right to her own body, no man can tell a women to have a child.


Yes, I can see it now. Women are rounded up, inceminated en mass, and kept in holding chambers (padded to prevent them from hurting themselves).

9 months later they are free to go.

You're right, that is insane. What's even more insane is that you liken the current view of Pro-life to that.

They aren't even close. So before we get into the "forced" debate, think it over.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 03:07 PM
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Torque,

You and I share the same position, it's good to see I am not alone. I also believe late term abortion should not be legal unless the mother is threatened. Too many people think that because we believe people should HAVE the choice, as unfortunate as that choice is, and that awareness and education is the only true way to combat abortion.


[edit on 20-8-2004 by 27jd]



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 03:33 PM
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This was my sis in the 2nd trimester she didn't have the heart to terminate the babies...........



This is what she got and gave those boys a chance to live


So whoever said their parasites on the mother??? If u don't want a baby adoption duh, don't be a selfish bitch........



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 03:43 PM
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Abortion after 2 months " to me" is murder.....it's a very hard thing. I had an abortion at 15 when I was about 6 weeks along, forced by parents, who were told due my drug abuse, it may not be normal. I had a severe drug addiction brought on by childhood sexual abuse and couldn't of taken care of it...I dunno...but the thing is...for years after, I would have this dream about a baby crying in the basement...I would go down and see a crib there and would bend over the crib to pick the baby up and comfort it, and it would be a tiny little skeleton crying....It was horrifying!!! I would wake up screaming and wet.....it's a very emotional thing to go through. There also has to be some type of fairness in cases of rape and abuse like incest....even though it is not the child's fault, it can be too much for the mother which is also understandable.....it's tough no matter what! I have a cousin that used to use abortion as a form of birth control...she's had several and the last one was at like 5 months....it's disgusting!



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 03:55 PM
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yowie, 5 months, thats brutal... Spineless bitch.... sorry, its what I think...
not you, your friend... Why doesn't she use condoms, or depo provera, birth control, why abortion? they are more pricey, and cost tax payers lots of money if you live in canada... I had one too at age 16, I was 5 weeks I think, my b/f didn't want it, his former g/f's had abortions too, he was a # bag looking back.. I didn't want the responsibility, I couldn't even take care of myself at the time...
Of course, I was a teenager and was only thinking of myself, but I at least did it asap, I wouldn't have one now if I found out... It's really sad...

I look my nephews and I wonder how anybody could do that, they got so much life in their eyes, their so innocent, and needs lots of love and security.. Everybody used to be a baby, and many are grown ups that never really "grew up" they still are babies mentally...

anyway, sorry you had one, your smarter now as am I, and it comes with the territory of getting older.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 04:40 PM
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TL, (pouring barbeque sauce on my head) I'm not sure what point you are making showing us those photos. Is that for people who are not aware what a pregnant woman, or babies look like? Thanks for the visual aids, but they don't really address the discussion one way or the other. Cute kids though.



posted on Aug, 20 2004 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
I have a cousin that used to use abortion as a form of birth control...she's had several and the last one was at like 5 months....it's disgusting!


I had a neighbor that was the EXACT same way, I don't know how anybody can be like that. She had 3 kids, she slept with tons of guys, and refused to use any protection, NASTY, and then when she got pregnant she would just get an abortion. In my opinion she was a terrible human being. There should definetly be regulations on "serial" abortions, as well as late term.



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