Freemasonry Q & A by John Salza, former Freemason

page: 3
2
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join

posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 10:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by mikeangel


Secondly, How is it that you can chose the "book of your choice" to place on said "altar", which some choose the Koran, when the Bible says "I am the way the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me", and his teaching is based on forgiveness, love, and tolerance, even loving your enemys. But how is that compatable with this-

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."


Freemasonry is not a religion. Men of all faiths can be masons. The Bible is where our lessons come from. But the purpose of the bible on the altar is similar to the one in court. It is there to remind us that it is our rule and guide of faith, but also that when we swear out oath, we do so to our God. so a Muslim would not use a Bible to do that, he would us a Qur'an. make sense?


Do not say "Well, in the OT there was a lot of Killing and conquering", That was ancient times, before the New Covenant. The New covenant was Love and forgiveness. Mohammed wrote the Koran, and his hatred for christians and jews is stated all through it. If you like I read through it again and quote it for you. How in Masons mind do you say they are the one and the same origin when they so very clearly contradict each other? Thank you for responding. Peace-Me


Who is to say which religion is right? Obviously you think Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. But I would bet that a Jew might have a vastly different idea. A Muslim as well. Freemasonry takes the topics of religion and politics out of the equation to promote harmony. If you cannot live for 2 hours without praising Jesus' name, then masonry isn't for you. But if you can go to a ball game or a cookout and make it through those activities without evoking prayer other than the prayer for a meal or a safe game, surely you could make it through a meeting where an opening prayer is offered to (your individual God) so all can join in the celebration.




posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 10:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by ElohimJD

Originally posted by TheGiantPeach

Lucifer is the "light bearer"


Lucifer WAS created as the light bearer, he has not gone by that name for several thousand years, it was changed to Satan once sin entered into his mind.

2 Cor 11:14-15
"And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light (lucifier). Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness (illuminated), whose end will be according to their works (power, money, sex)."

Satan lies, he lies to his servants as well; his servants believe his lies.

God Bless,



If you ignore Lucifer, Satan, and whomever evil entities you can conjer up, you remove their power. By constantly bringing them to the fore front of the conversation, you are pleasing them by offering them your power. Like the annoying kid whom you wish would just go somewhere else, just ignore him.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:04 AM
link   
reply to post by network dude
 


Again, thank you for your response. You did not address the obvious contradiction between the Koran and the Bible, to coincide with your stating that all beliefs lead to the same place. #2, why would quoting the bible make masons disappear? If that was your "Book that you have faith in", that you attested to be placed on the "altar" when you were initiated, why would discussing "big picture" beliefs represented in it be a cause to back off? Would it might be that the allagory and rituals that are not in line with it, and cannot be defended, without flat out denying and explaining away obvious commandments from God (the one in the Bible)?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:08 AM
link   
Also, if it is not a religion, why is there an "altar", and the rituals are performed in a place representive of God's temple in Jerusalem?



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 11:58 AM
link   
One last thing, for example, you said "when we swear out oath, we do so to our God"

And I read-

But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by ... Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. ... yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no'; and anything beyond these is of evil” (Matthew 5 :33-37

Again, with the Bible put on the altar in front of the "Worshipful Master" as your "Belief of choice", how can this be compatable? In court, they allow people to "affirm" instead of swear, as to respect thier belief of this scripture.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by mikeangel
reply to post by network dude
 


Again, thank you for your response. You did not address the obvious contradiction between the Koran and the Bible, to coincide with your stating that all beliefs lead to the same place.

The holy book of each religion has it's meaning to the individual. We allow many faiths to join and only ask that they hold a belief in a supreme being. We do not dictate what that God should be called as that is up to the individual. My lodge is made up of mostly Southern Baptists, so your view would fit right in with them. It is generally accepted in Freemasonry that whatever name is attributed to God, all refer to the same being, just by different names. So in reality we all are talking about the God of the Bible, or the God of the Qur'an.


#2, why would quoting the bible make masons disappear? If that was your "Book that you have faith in", that you attested to be placed on the "altar" when you were initiated, why would discussing "big picture" beliefs represented in it be a cause to back off? Would it might be that the allegory and rituals that are not in line with it, and cannot be defended, without flat out denying and explaining away obvious commandments from God (the one in the Bible)?


Only because on this site, Bible thumpers use it's quotes to condemn masons to hell all too often. We as masons made our choices to practice our religion as we see fit and to worship as we see fit, so when someone comes in and starts to throw fire and brimstone at you, pretending to be the right hand of God, we tend to get put off rather quickly. The book is available to read anytime. It's my belief that if God didn't approve of what I was doing, he would let me know. Just as you feel he approves of your actions, or you wouldn't do them. Kind of mutual respect, if you will.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by mikeangel
One last thing, for example, you said "when we swear out oath, we do so to our God"

And I read-

But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by ... Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. ... yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no'; and anything beyond these is of evil” (Matthew 5 :33-37

Again, with the Bible put on the altar in front of the "Worshipful Master" as your "Belief of choice", how can this be compatable? In court, they allow people to "affirm" instead of swear, as to respect thier belief of this scripture.


Did you swear to be true to your wife when you got married? You did so in God's name. this is why picking quotes out of the Bible to use to condemn others will usually backfire. Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself.



edit to add:
Here is an opinion that differs from yours.
edit on 7-12-2012 by network dude because: added link



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:07 PM
link   
reply to post by mikeangel
 

That website displays the "Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor" which is somewhat different to the ritual practiced today.

The term "Worshipful Master" doesn't mean we worship him. "Worshipful" is an old English term to mean "someone worthy of great respect". There is no worshiping in the Lodge (that is not the function of the Lodge or Freemasonry in general). The obligation we take is taken between the candidate and God. If you go to non-English speaking countries they use a different honorary term for the Master of the Lodge. In Italy it is "Venerable" as their is no direct translation for "Worshipful" in Italian. It's different in France, but I cannot remember what they use.

A coffin is not used anymore in the 3rd degree nor was it universally used across the board. Nor is there anything wrong with using the coffin. It is an emblem of mortality, what's wrong with that. Many Christians wear an emblem of mortality around their neck.

You're not resurrected in the Third degree. Some Masons may disagree with me, but the legend we use and the story told in that degree doesn't mesh with a resurrection analogy.


I will not be bullied by a bunch of people who base thier salvation on thier traditions and works, Not on God.

The Masons don't bully nor do we deal with salvation. Freemasonry leaves the decisions of Faith to each member. Nor do we believe that one can be saved through works only, but the Bible does state that one is not saved by Faith alone as it is dead and fruitless (James 2:26).

reply to post by mikeangel
 

As I said above, the term "worshipful" means "one worthy of respect" which the person holding that position should be (not always the case). Again, there is no worshiping in the Lodge as we are not a church or a religion.

We kneel to the Bible not to the Master.

Well, not everyone is Christian and Freemasonry allows men of various faiths into it. How can we say we espouse religious tolerance, but then force a Muslim or a Jew to take his obligations upon the Christian Holy Bible? Would that not be a horrible slap in the face to him? Also note, the whole "the way, the truth and the light" means nothing to a non-Christian so you can preach all day long, but Bible thumping, from my experience, does nothing, but chase people of principle away.

Personally I prefer to convert via my good actions and setting an example for others to follow. When I pray, when I took my Oaths, and when I took my Obligations I spoke my words to the Christian God for He is the one who holds a place in my heart.

reply to post by mikeangel
 

It is not for Freemasonry to address contradictions between faiths, only that the followers abide by the rules of the Lodge and maintain peace and harmony while Lodge is in session. Two things never to be brought up in Lodge is partisan politics and religion.

Don't worry about chasing me away, I haven't been avoiding responding, I've just been in class and at work this morning.

reply to post by mikeangel
 

An altar doesn't denote a religion. The altar is in place to hold the Holy Book that is used in that Lodge (as it isn't always the Christian Bible). The ritual deals with the building of King Solomon's Temple and is an analogy of building oneself.

reply to post by mikeangel
 

I don't make my oath to heaven or anything else, but to God. Would you say that every politician, public servant, or military official has broken this scripture?
edit on 7-12-2012 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by GenerationXisMarching
 


since you won't be back, I am sure this will fall on deaf ears. I don't think you understood your grandfather too well. It seems that since he was a good business man, you assume he cheated, lied, and sold his soul to the devil to do it. I have known people who worked hard and earned what they got. Isn't it possible that he was one of those men? Naw, it make much more sense that he used satanic blood sacrifices to grow his business. After all, that's how all the up and comers are doing it these days. Maybe if you put a little effort into your life you could be as respected as he was.


Common knowledge the Freemasons revere Mercury, "The Golden Boy", god of merchants, thieves and gamblers.

MERCury: MERChant; comMERCe; MERCenary; see "murky"; "murk": to physically beat someone to death

Dollar sign: $: the serpent in the tree (see caduceus of Mercury).

Hermes: Greek: "herpein" meaning "to creep on one's belly". Wiki Mt. Hermon (Mt. Zion)
edit on 7-12-2012 by Aesir26 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 12:46 PM
link   
reply to post by Aesir26
 


we do?

maybe you can explain in what context Mercury is discussed in masonry.

I am always happy to learn new things.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 01:00 PM
link   
reply to post by Aesir26
 


"Lodge": originally meant a dwelling for hunters/gamesmen
In dictionary next to "lodestone": magnetite; gravitational pull; draw towards the earth/grave

LODgE: Masonic "G", gravitational constant = 6.66 X 10-11 Nmz- kg2. Theorized by Newton in 1666.

Mt. (C)Hermon: place of Fall of Satan (see Book of Enoch). A.K.A. Mt. Zion/Sion (Deu 4:44-48). Louis XIV establishes Paris Zero Meridian in 1666: Mt. Hermon located at 33 degrees by 33 degrees in territory of Tribe of Dan. Image of Tribe of Dan: Serpent. "Dan" pronounced "dawn" in Hebrew: Slogan: "A New Dawn"
edit on 7-12-2012 by Aesir26 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:27 PM
link   
reply to post by Aesir26
 


"This looks like this, so this means the same as this" is not etymology. You can't just ignore the "g" in lodge to fit your ends. "Lodge" is no more related to "lode" because they look similar than bats are to birds.

While we're in the dictionary, let's look at the rest of the entry:


Origin of LODGE
Middle English loge, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German louba (porch)


And lode?


Origin of LODE
Middle English, from Old English lād (course, support); akin to Old English līthan (to go)


(Light editing to original for emphasis.)



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 02:52 PM
link   
reply to post by Aesir26
 

Well, etymologically and historically you're incorrect. If you think you're right, please provide your sources. Just because a word has "merc" in it doesn't mean it is connected with Mercury. That is completely illogical and overlooks how languages and words developed and evolved.

reply to post by Aesir26
 

Lodge has been used by various cultures, groups, and organizations. And the fact that it is right next to "lodestone" in the dictionary is irrelevant.

As for the Masonic "G", that is primarily an American use, it's not universal, and in non-English speaking countries they'd never use it. Your word games are very illogical and without proof.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 03:31 PM
link   
So, the jist of what your saying is that the masons are a kind of "New Age" obsevance of religion, meaning that all of the religions are inspired by God and he is ultimately the head of them all.. If I wanted to Join Masonry, and My God is Lucifer, and I had a book written by someone supposedly "inspired" by him, I may recieve the initiation with that book on the "altar" ? What about Voodoo? Which religious books are permissible to be initiated under? Any rules regarking that?

I looked up the definition of Altar. All the different ones are exactly or very similar to this-they all mention worship or religion.



Definately does not fit with the statement that Masonry is not a religion. Why is it not just a table, if masonry is not a religion. It's like someone taking me to a school, and telling ne it isn't a school, but looking at the chalkboards and books and chairs and desk, no matter what I am explained, I still think it is a school.


As far as the term" Worshipful Master" meaning somebody deserving respect, from old English , If it is wrong when they used it, does that maki it right for you, even though it implys worship to someone you are enslaved to?


P.S. It's not my place to condemn or judge anyone. I leave that up to God. But I do base my life and faith in the Bible and the God who inspired it. I do not claim to be in line with everything in it, only trying. The only person that was IMHO was Jesus. Peace-Me



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 03:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by network dude
Who is to say which religion is right? Obviously you think Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. But I would bet that a Jew might have a vastly different idea. A Muslim as well. Freemasonry takes the topics of religion and politics out of the equation to promote harmony. If you cannot live for 2 hours without praising Jesus' name, then masonry isn't for you. But if you can go to a ball game or a cookout and make it through those activities without evoking prayer other than the prayer for a meal or a safe game, surely you could make it through a meeting where an opening prayer is offered to (your individual God) so all can join in the celebration.


Therein lies the crux. Hate is oh so easy. Recognising a brother of the dust takes a little more maturity.

Fitz



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 03:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by mikeangel
Also, if it is not a religion, why is there an "altar", and the rituals are performed in a place representive of God's temple in Jerusalem?


It's called analogy.

HTH

Fitz



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 03:47 PM
link   
reply to post by mikeangel
 


Great! then I don't suppose we will be seeing you at the lodge anytime soon. Thanks for your input.

have a great day.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 03:50 PM
link   
reply to post by network dude
The holy book of each religion has it's meaning to the individual. We allow many faiths to join and only ask that they hold a belief in a supreme being.

Supreme Being. Do try to keep your stick on the ice [/grammarNazi]

reply to post by network dude
We do not dictate what that God should be called as that is up to the individual. My lodge is made up of mostly Southern Baptists, so your view would fit right in with them. It is generally accepted in Freemasonry that whatever name is attributed to God, all refer to the same being, just by different names. So in reality we all are talking about the God of the Bible, or the God of the Qur'an.

My lodge is an urban one and we count Christians of all stripes (Catholic and Protestant), Jewish, Muslim and (at this point) Sikh members among the brethren. About the only real challenge I've found is dealing with the vegetarians


reply to post by network dude

#2, why would quoting the bible make masons disappear? If that was your "Book that you have faith in", that you attested to be placed on the "altar" when you were initiated, why would discussing "big picture" beliefs represented in it be a cause to back off? Would it might be that the allegory and rituals that are not in line with it, and cannot be defended, without flat out denying and explaining away obvious commandments from God (the one in the Bible)?


Only because on this site, Bible thumpers use it's quotes to condemn masons to hell all too often. We as masons made our choices to practice our religion as we see fit and to worship as we see fit, so when someone comes in and starts to throw fire and brimstone at you, pretending to be the right hand of God, we tend to get put off rather quickly. The book is available to read anytime. It's my belief that if God didn't approve of what I was doing, he would let me know. Just as you feel he approves of your actions, or you wouldn't do them. Kind of mutual respect, if you will.

Seconding JN's point. It's only too easy in this plane of existence to assert that Dad/Mom/God loves me and my religion best. But the simple truth is that we won't know until after we shuffle off this mortal coil whether our particular take was the correct one and there won't be an opportunity to come back and communicate the correctness or incorrectness of that approach.

Would it not make more sense to make this existence as close to Heaven as we can (differences notwithstanding) than to make it Hell?

Just askin'

Fitz



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 08:02 PM
link   
reply to post by network dude
 

First , like I said before, thank you for your responses and candor, but,. I can see the smoke drifting across the blacktop from the sudden stop from the IMHO direct question I asked and your sudden stop. I will humbily ask again. Please respond to this question, and swear/affirm/state or whatever you choose is honest and true:

" If I wanted to Join Masonry, and My God is Lucifer, and I had a book written by someone supposedly "inspired" by him, I may recieve the initiation with that book on the "altar" ? What about Voodoo? Which religious books are permissible to be initiated under? Any rules regarking that? "

Respectfully, Me
Peace



.



posted on Dec, 7 2012 @ 08:05 PM
link   
reply to post by network dude
 


"have a great day."

And you as well.





top topics
 
2
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join