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Questions are mundane and material. They work best when they deal with determining what is mundane and material.
I haven't really looked very deeply into Ken Wilbur's work.
....I know that you can't concretely explain to me what this HIGHER LEVEL means in a way that I'll be able to understand....The average intelligent and aware individual on this planet hasn't got this perspective and wouldn't even be able to accurately describe what this perspective consists of.....
...Any theoretical physicist could bury a person (me, definitely, would be buried) under piles of jargon and references that would quickly become a milky wash of useless verbiage.
These are questions that have been festering for centuries within the minds of the academic elite. I can't see them being answered to anyone's satisfaction by a man that has yet to establish his own information's inherent credibility.
...Whatever exists as real must touch what we already know to be real. This is the one fact that I seem to be having to reiterate. I asked my wife last night, "....
How do you close the gap between 'Me' and 'my mind'?
How do you close the gap between 'my mind' and the brain?
How do you close the gap between the brain and a single neuron?
....between a cell and macro-molecular events?
....macro-molecular
....chemical...
....physical....
....non-physical (?!)...
....turtles, all the way down and all the way up....
Originally posted by tgidkp
cheers to both you and mrvortex. i am a grad of the songwriting program at berklee.
....I know that you can't concretely explain to me what this HIGHER LEVEL means in a way that I'll be able to understand....The average intelligent and aware individual on this planet hasn't got this perspective and wouldn't even be able to accurately describe what this perspective consists of.....
of course i can, i certainly didnt mean for it to be obscure. i, too, am not terribly fond of the metaphysical elitists. even the least sophisticated person understands perfectly by direct apprehension the difference between "Me" and "my mind". that is why it was my first example. they may not be able to put into words, precisely, how this relationship works. but i assure you that every person has a quite intimate working knowledge of their own mind.
what allows this to happen is that "I" can observe the contents of my mind from a HIGHER LEVEL. in fact, my own self concept could be described exclusively in terms of the contents of my mind as a type of formal system similar to PM. but, similar to the follies of PM, "I" can construct mental abstractions which are irreconcilable from the perspective of the mental functioning itself. this is why "I" exist at a higher level than "my mind". and Godels Theorem exists at a higher level than PM.
Originally posted by DeadJester
reply to post by NorEaster
To be honest, I agree with Lovecraft's thoughts on the matter. I think if most humans realized how completely and utterly insignificant we were, things would fall apart.
Originally posted by electricalpup
No questions will be needed. You will be in awe and overcome with the energy of love, the energy may drop you to your knees, or you will cry in the splendor of love uncontrollably for a period of time. It is after the energy has left you, when your linear brain questions. Deep inside your heart you will know without a doubt you are never alone, and you have been given a blessing for a lifetime. This is when you will seek within, not outside of self for answers for your lifetime. We all are on different journeys, but yet we are all one. Love
Originally posted by IAMIAM
Originally posted by NorEaster
What consitutes physical existence? Can you describe it specifically?
Why did physical existence emerge? What brought it into existence?
What sits at the very base of physical structure and provides any sort of consistency at all?
Is there anything that exists that isn't physical? If so, what is it? Describe its nature.
What do we see that you can point to as directly connected to your premise? How is it associated?
My friend,
I do not believe anyone enlightened enough to know the answers would be unenlightened enough to share them with anyone. Mankind has yet to learn to love each other and preserve their existence with what they do know, why would anyone think they are prepared for greater knowledge at this point?
The answers are part of our journey, to discover together.
WIth Love,
Your Brother
Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by MrVortex
cool
Thanks for the links.
P.S. I just watched that YouTube interview and I agree with the suggestion that the brain shares the same sub-structural functionality as everything else that it shares the contextual environment with. I base everything that I believe on that one central premise as it applies to all that exists as interactable.
Oh, and great recording as well. Are you the producer?edit on 1/8/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by NorEaster
I hate that I have no idea what PM refers to.
When an event occurs, the direct result of that event is the fact that the event occurred. It's immediate, and regardless of what was perceived by whatever might've perceived it - or regardless of whether it was not perceived as having occurred at all - what emerged as fact (a very primitive and elemental form of information) accurately represents the specifics of that event (including the contextual relationship that the event shares with all that existed at the precise moment of the occurrence of that event) with a disinterested clarity, since each bit of information contained within the fact is directly linked via causation to what brought it into physical existence.
I can't separate the product from the process itself, and probably because I can't logically find the point of separation between what is and what brought it into existence.
Originally posted by tgidkp
reply to post by NorEaster
that was a really great post and i can appreciate why you needed a nap afterwards!
Originally posted by NorEaster
I hate that I have no idea what PM refers to.
it refers to the Principia Mathematica. i apologise that my language skills are not as precise as yours.
When an event occurs, the direct result of that event is the fact that the event occurred. It's immediate, and regardless of what was perceived by whatever might've perceived it - or regardless of whether it was not perceived as having occurred at all - what emerged as fact (a very primitive and elemental form of information) accurately represents the specifics of that event (including the contextual relationship that the event shares with all that existed at the precise moment of the occurrence of that event) with a disinterested clarity, since each bit of information contained within the fact is directly linked via causation to what brought it into physical existence.
i really like how you are thinking about this. the author douglas hofstadter agrees with you. i have made a crude scan from his book "I am a strange loop" and posted it below. i figure it would be better to let a pro talk about it instead of "some guy who thinks he's so smart". (thanks for that little rant, BTW, newageman)
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/52a24944328b.gif[/atsimg]
I can't separate the product from the process itself, and probably because I can't logically find the point of separation between what is and what brought it into existence.
the essential idea that i think you are missing is that once the self concept, loops back and itself becomes a concept (what you are calling the "inimitable identity"), then it can exhibit a type of reverse-causality on the entire system which is impossible to interpret from a reductionist perspective. this is where a purely reductionist materialist perspective falls apart.
the TOP -> DOWN view of existence is just as valid as the BOTTOM -> UP. in many ways, it is more valid, IMO.
again, thanks for the cool thread.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Erongaricuaro
Don't worry about it, I've gotten sick and tired of listening to my own self, let alone trying to read tombs of info posted by people who think they're so smart, it gets ridiculous and absurd after a while, and then all you can do is laugh out loud! LOL Now THAT's understanding imho.