Request for Evidence Against God

Originally posted by SFlowers
So can I ask you for evidence that there IS a God?

Dont get me wrong, I believe in the Christian God (not necessarily the church... cults are scary and I just got out of one). I don't post topics like this because I can't prove what I believe. So, forgive me, but maybe you should prove the existence of God before asking why people don't believe in Him?

Just my two cents..

Yes certainly, maybe I should. I myself am a Christian, but I am not of the opinion that everyone must be Christian, everyone has a choice and I am ok with anyone belief, as far as I can understand an anti-theist is not ok with everyone's beliefs, since their ANTI-theist. I have no proof for or against God, which is exactly why I ask for it. I am not saying that anti-theists are wrong, and am not requiring them to prove their claims, but for my own knowledge I wish to know their opinion.

Originally posted by infoquest
Hi im just going to throw one out here and say although there is no historical proof (i can find) of God/Jesus, plently of archeological proof has been found to support the bible.

For instance -

Noah's Ark has been found exactly where the Bible says it came to rest. i know the koran states this also but cant be counted, as historical proof states the koran was writtin thousands of years after the REAL bible.

The walls of Jericho

and many others.

also a previous post in this thread states that religion is full of pedo's and killer's! can i just point out that most people who dont believe in god will use this same lame excuse, if you belive in god then most people would also believe in satan who corrupts our church to make the weak minded leave comments like that and stay away from church.

Evolution - in my opinion is BS, how can anyone believe that a whole planet or set of planets actually came about through a big bang? then to top it of bits of dust and particles and stuff mixed together to create a monkey that then evolved into us. lmfao, some people are just funny

anyway thats my two pennies worth..

First of all, Noah's ark, as far as I know it has not been found, only some wood has been found around the area where they are looking for it (which explains why it has been found in the exact place-I actually didn't even know they had coordinates in the bible). History does support the bible, but as far as I know, this particular example is incorrect.

Walls of Jericho, haven't heard of that one.

"if you belive in god then most people would also believe in satan who corrupts our church to make the weak minded leave comments like that and stay away from church." Fair point I think.

"Evolution - in my opinion is BS, how can anyone believe that a whole planet or set of planets actually came about through a big bang? then to top it of bits of dust and particles and stuff mixed together to create a monkey that then evolved into us. lmfao, some people are just funny"

It is their belief. I believe they had fish first and it, through time evolved into the human of today. You have to understand though, there is evolution, at least small scale evolution. Who knows, God could have used evolution to make us. But yes, the idea that everything was made by a big bang (although there is the idea everything was before it too, somewhere) is a bit strange and hard to understand.

Originally posted by rstregooski
reply to post by iamaperson

 

In the words of George Carlin,

"When it comes to BS, big-time, major league BS, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims... Religion. Religion has actually convinced people, that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!....
...But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise... somehow- just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good BS story. Holy S***!

I can spot at least three things that appear incorrect.

1. God is a man
2. If you do one of the 10 things wrong you go to hell
3. God needs money

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by sinohptik

 

Our bodies produce energy via chemical reactions. When you die the reactions stop the energy stops being produced, any residual energy dissipates (into the surrounding tissue, air, etc). Translation - science is pretty sure that when you're dead you're DEAD. Even if everything in science wasn't telling us there's no afterlife there is still the complete lack of evidence in favor of afterlives.

This whole "energy" thing you're talking about is new age pseudoscience.

edit on 4-1-2011 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)

Our bodies produce energy, this is something new, I always thought the energy was like trapped inside the food we eat, and our bodies transform that energy from food to usable energy. I never thought our bodies make energy. Science is sure that when your dead your dead? I am pretty sure religion knows that when your dead your dead also, you die in this earthly life, that's the way God made it, and wow, science supports this. Hmm, dead is dead?

reply to post by iamaperson


ah, well it's a funny bit anyway... I mainly meant the video link I posted.
It's all essentially sun worship, in my opinion, that many "religions" are based on..

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger
reply to post by iamaperson

 

Please first prove that God exists, in a manner that is reproducible by independent inquiry. Then we will have a starting point to argue the negative viewpoint.

Why? I am ok with you not believing in God, your choice, I do not need to provide evidence. An anti-theist is not ok with me believing in God, so he must have some reason for it, I was hoping this would mean they have evidence that God does not exist, since they say that I should not believe in God. But they don't, what they have is an idea that religion causes murder and rape, although it doesn't. They believe that without religion there would be no bad. I think they are wrong, I believe it is the people who do the bad things, not because of their religion, but because of something else.

Originally posted by rstregooski
reply to post by iamaperson

 

ah, well it's a funny bit anyway... I mainly meant the video link I posted.
It's all essentially sun worship, in my opinion, that many "religions" are based on..

Yes, ok, I thought you posted the most meaning full part of the video
But some people appear to say things like that.
I must then watch the video.

reply to post by FlyingJadeDragon


As I said, that's fair enough for an atheist to state, but anti-theists want me to not believe in God, if they can't prove I'm wrong, or that what I believe is causing someone harm, why can I not believe in God?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by sinohptik

 

Actually, we are made up of matter in chemical reaction. Now, we utilize energy for our function, but we aren't made of it...unless you're talking in the most basic sense of matter also being a form of energy, but that's sort of...there.

What are your thoughts on e=mc2? mass and energy are mathematically linked. At what point, in your opinion, does that link no longer apply? If you could show that, mathematically, i would really appreciate it Im sure you understand such a request! And indeed, lets get beyond the way we see the world with our senses and start to explore the similarities between all matter. This is not out of the realm of science.

where is this "utilized" energy derived from? Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed into different forms of energy.

Anyway, there's nothing to show that there's any intrinsic 'self' tied to some sort of energy, like the concept of the soul.

We must not be luminous beings, we're simply this crude matter that our bodies are made up of. (Guess the reference, win...um...a star.)

Im sure google could get me a star I said "im not talking about the "soul" or anything like that"

edit: well really, dont bother too much MIMS. i am becoming less and less interested with this board as a whole anyway. I have already made some great connections with some atheists, theists, and those beyond such labels alike where we can have actual discussions, but i was tired of this whole "thing" before i found this board Dont even know why i got involved in the first place, other than my un-itchable desire to stir the pot.

Originally posted by Vandalour
reply to post by iamaperson

 

I just made a tread about scientific evidence of heaven and hell here on ATS
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It appears you have decided to ask for your thread to be removed, you have also yourself removed all this scientific evidence, too bad I was too late. Would have liked to read your "evidence".

it's impossible to prove there is a god or isn't a god only depending on how you define god. If there is a god, what is it? A man in the sky watching from the clouds has been disproven. A creator of the universe? Now there's where we reach the point where you can't disprove god.

It is possible to disprove that "Holy" books were written by god. Who wrote the Gospel? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I'm pretty sure those were humans, not aliens or gods, that wrote those books. It's been proven that all religions were created by man for man, however, it's impossible to prove god doesn't exist. Atheists take the fact that religions have been disproven, to assume that means a god couldn't exist.

I sort of forgot to add that there is a surefire way to prove for yourself once and for all whether or not god exists. Kill yourself and you will know for sure.

Originally posted by Ghost374
I sort of forgot to add that there is a surefire way to prove for yourself once and for all whether or not god exists. Kill yourself and you will know for sure.

OK, thanks for the tip.

The funny thing is though, if you are right, you cant tell me "i told you so", but it works vice versa.

"Evolution - in my opinion is BS, how can anyone believe that a whole planet or set of planets actually came about through a big bang? then to top it of bits of dust and particles and stuff mixed together to create a monkey that then evolved into us. lmfao, some people are just funny"

Evolution isn't as simple as you describe. It's actually completely different from what you describe. I'm bored so I'll give a very brief overview(it's a process that took billions of years so anyone who tries to describe it is leaving stuff out and a lot of the details still aren't known)
First DNA was created(DNA has been created with just heat and chemicals so it didn't take god to make DNA). This DNA eventually entered a single "cell," which is just a phospholipid bilayer(which forms quite easily on its own.) This single cell began to replicate, and mutated over generations. Eventually these cells formed colonies. Then certain cells began to specialize specific functions. First, plants were created, which caused oxygen to enter our atmosphere in large quantities. Then the first "animals" evolved. They kept evolving until today. Of course they evolved into dinosaurs which were wiped out, but according to you I suppose God just placed those fossils to confuse us? Or were humans around while the dinosaurs lived? I forgot how you guys deal with that fact. The thing about evolution is it doesn't prove a god doesn't exist. It just means a god didn't create everything out of thin air 6000 years ago.

Originally posted by Ghost374
First, plants were created, which caused oxygen to enter our atmosphere in large quantities. Then the first "animals" evolved. They kept evolving until today. Of course they evolved into dinosaurs which were wiped out, but according to you I suppose God just placed those fossils to confuse us? Or were humans around while the dinosaurs lived? I forgot how you guys deal with that fact. The thing about evolution is it doesn't prove a god doesn't exist. It just means a god didn't create everything out of thin air 6000 years ago.

Hmm, so ever thought about the fact that the bible has always stated that God created the heavens and the earth in six phases?

1. Sun
2. Earth
3. Dry land and seas, then Plants
4. Moon and stars
5. Sea animals and birds
6. Animals and then Man
Note that this is what I just compiled, might be wrong.

Notice how plants were created before animals in this version too. And animals were created before humans, therefore dinosaurs could have died before humans lived, couldn't they?

Exactly how do you prove God did not create earth? I would like you to prove that it all happened by chance.

reply to post by Ghost374


For some insight into evolution, or adaptation, biodiversity, or whatever one feels most "comfortable" calling it, the Congo river is amazing. Especially ones like Mastacembelus Brichardi.

research.amnh.org...

scientistatwork.blogs.nytimes.com...

www.youtube.com...

And if i remember correctly (and that kayak video makes me think i do), national geographic made a documentary about it. It was pretty interesting, to say the least. I was able to find one called "monster fish of the congo" but im not so sure that was it. Maybe someone else knows what it was.

I think you are missing my point, you do not need to go to church or belong to a church to believe in a God.

You might find if you look back at what i posted, i didn't say that

What you mean makes sense to me now completely, thank you. I now understand your point and need to research it, however I am unsure how they could have modified it to say anything they can benefit from.

I can give examples if you like.... For instance,

(reincarnation)
Completely taken out of the bible yet if you look hard enough you can still find proof that it was taught originally.

(Eating meat)
Jesus was a vegetarian, did not believe in eating meat for any reason

(Sacrificing animals)
The need was completely abolished when the christ came onto the scene, yet still practiced due to the fact that church and state was the same thing...and both still used pagan rituals of blood

(Missing Gospels)
Over 80 "gospels were left out of the bible for various reasons, some of which include things that prove jesus was nothing more then a man that was spiritually gifted. They didn't want anything to disprove they have the only "God man"....yet another case of.... "our religion is better then yours...heres proof" And of course my favorite...instances of Jesus himself sinning....theres even a pasage in one of the gospels that were taken out that jesus litterally kills another man in frustration. Gone...i find it quite funny actually.

Well if it is "in the name of God" you have less reason (I think), because in that case religion did not really cause it, the perpetrator is only using religion, getting rid off religion will not get rid off the problem, they will do their horrible acts in the name of something else.

Actually you are completely right....but this excuse is the problem. Its one thing when your leader wants to attack someone for whatever reason. But when God wants it done, what choice do you have....God is a vengeful and terrifying being who will strike you down if you don't listen to his representitives. (ya right)

reply to post by sinohptik


Yes it is produced... Produced and created are not the same thing. Our bodies use oxygen, water, nutrients in food, etc to produce energy via chemical processes. The energy already exists within the food, oxygen and water our bodies just convert it.

reply to post by purplemonkeydishwasher

I see you have marked yourself for death, Mortal.

Actually I was bit by a vampire a few weeks ago, damn bite still itches, I tried throwing myself in front of a bus and even doing the old stake through the heart trick... You'd be surprised how tough the human chest plate is even for undead immortal folks like me.


reply to post by iamaperson

When I said produced I didn't mean created from thin air and I even mentioned CHEMICAL processes. Raw materials (food) go in and our body uses them to produce energy.

Christianity teaches that when your body is dead something called the spirit or soul lives on, there's no good evidence for this of any kind. Everything about who you are is in your brain and consciousness is an emergent property of brain function near as we can tell... there is nothing to suggest the existence of a soul or that it could continue after bodily and brain death.

Originally posted by Akragon

I think you are missing my point, you do not need to go to church or belong to a church to believe in a God.

You might find if you look back at what i posted, i didn't say that

What you mean makes sense to me now completely, thank you. I now understand your point and need to research it, however I am unsure how they could have modified it to say anything they can benefit from.

I can give examples if you like.... For instance,

(reincarnation)
Completely taken out of the bible yet if you look hard enough you can still find proof that it was taught originally.

(Eating meat)
Jesus was a vegetarian, did not believe in eating meat for any reason

(Sacrificing animals)
The need was completely abolished when the christ came onto the scene, yet still practiced due to the fact that church and state was the same thing...and both still used pagan rituals of blood

(Missing Gospels)
Over 80 "gospels were left out of the bible for various reasons, some of which include things that prove jesus was nothing more then a man that was spiritually gifted. They didn't want anything to disprove they have the only "God man"....yet another case of.... "our religion is better then yours...heres proof" And of course my favorite...instances of Jesus himself sinning....theres even a pasage in one of the gospels that were taken out that jesus litterally kills another man in frustration. Gone...i find it quite funny actually.

Well if it is "in the name of God" you have less reason (I think), because in that case religion did not really cause it, the perpetrator is only using religion, getting rid off religion will not get rid off the problem, they will do their horrible acts in the name of something else.

Actually you are completely right....but this excuse is the problem. Its one thing when your leader wants to attack someone for whatever reason. But when God wants it done, what choice do you have....God is a vengeful and terrifying being who will strike you down if you don't listen to his representitives. (ya right)

I thought I said the first thing to someone else, I might go back and check. Reincarnation in the bible? Well you sure don't hear about it, so it could have been modified, I just wonder how they originally benefited from forging reincarnation out of the bible or religion. I never knew Jesus was a vegetarian, and wonder why he would be, eating meat is rather important. Sacrificing being used, I don't hear or see about sacrificing these days.

The missing gospels is certainly a good point, after reading the Da Vinci Code (which is fiction) I did start to research a bit about these missing gospels for a while, however could not find an easy Internet version (eg. pdf or something) so I just forgot about it.

Jesus sinning? I have certainly always heard how Jesus was perfect, and can understand that someone would want to wipe that passage out. I wish to read this before I believe it though, its a rather big claim.

Thanks.

Well keep in mind the bible was and has been used all through out history to assert control over the population...
If you believe that you only have one life to live, you better do it right cause you only get once chance. If you get it wrong then you burn in "hell" .....simple means to keep the population under control, you can't rebel if you're afraid to go to hell... Basically its a way of keeping people afraid....technically its still used today. Its just a little different. These days the media uses fear by way of news broadcasts and many other ways of course.

True the da vinci code was fiction but dan brown did his research. Although the story is fictional it does have some truths to it...for instance...Do you truely believe Jesus was a virgin? 33 years on this planet and he never got a piece? Hard to believe unless you think he was "God on earth" Theres documented proof that Mary was his "most favorite of his deciples" and he kissed her regularly on the mouth. Chances are Mary was his wife and they probably had children. Of course again this was probably covered up because "our diety was perfect" as you stated.

You may also notice that jesus had 12 deciples (13 counting mary) yet the only gospels that made the "final cut" were Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. What about Thomas, and phillip, they wrote gospels...Even mary wrote one yet no mention of any of them.

If you'd like a link to many of the gospels that wern't included here you go ---> reluctant-messenger.com...

Theres also a gospel that is tied in to the 17 some odd years Jesus went missing....Some say its about him others don't....make your own decisions on it.