A Conversation with God

heh, i have no need to be nasty about this everyone has their beliefs and of course they are welcome to them...

Let me show you a different belief....i did read the OP btw

as it states in your post God is perfection...knowing this, your post is flawed, which God is not, nor is anything in creation. As a matter of fact everything in his creation is perfection regardless of how wrong you might think it is....this would include all manner of sin...so to speak. Im not saying "sin" is right....its part of a learning process in which we are all corrected by Karma.

G – Of course it is a lie. But in order for the challenge to be met I obliged myself to set up court and allow my accuser to provide his witnesses, and I mine. Thus I have permitted sin and wickedness in my perfect universe both heavenly and physical for a few days (a few thousand years, in your time frame.)

Q – So you are allowing suffering so that the challenge to your name and the challenge to your creation can be answered?

G – Correct. It hurts me to see the injustice and pain and suffering and misery that is happening. But I know it is only temporary. The questions have been answered. Man has shown himself unable to direct himself. I have proven Satan the liar that he is, as well as many of my faithful servants who have gone even as far as dying to clear my holy name. For with evil I cannot be put to the test, my child, nor do I ever use evil to try anyone.

Again, believe what you will....but this is the problem with religious dogma. Its based on old fairy tales from the dark ages....so lets put a more realistic spin on your devil...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Calender


Well, I'll start off with the good news. You wrote a quite long and lucid post (I'm assuming it's your own), kudos for that.

However, in referencing the deity of the Bible...you make a few mistakes. Of course, I don't have the time to go over them all, but I'll address two: Jehovah and the face of God.

If none may look upon the face of God and live...what about these people?

Hagar (Genesis)

Moses (Exodus and Deuteronomy, though in Exodus it states the he both did and cannot look upon the face of God, in the same chapter no less)

They both met that deity face to face without issue.

And the name Jehovah? I can tell you the exact person who came up with that name, it is William Tyndale, translator of the Tyndale Bible.

Of course, I'll go into more detail and do a point by point address of this post, as is my usual style, but it is late and that would be a most laborious task.

reply to post by Calender

Originally posted by Calendar
Q – God….Jehovah, may I call you by your name?

G – Yes child, please, call me by my name. For it is my name and it will always be my name as a memorial to all generations. And everyone that calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved, for the name of Jehovah is a strong tower and into it the righteous run and are given protection.

Why do you say all those who call upon the name of God/Jehovah will be saved, when God commands us to reach him, through the son/Jesus?

It would be nice if we did know Gods name for sure, but I just don’t think it really matters if a person knows God’s name or not, the most important thing, is that they come to know him in spirit, through Jesus.

NIV John 14:6

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Gods name is written as YHWH, but unfortunately, no one really knows for sure, how this Hebrew word should be pronounced. Jehovah witnesses claim God’s name is Jehovah but many questions still remain unanswered, for example; how many syllables does YHWH have 2, 3 or 4? Some scholars think it should be EHEYEH, while others believe it to be Yahweh.

I have done some research on Gods name in the past but it just doesn’t appear as though there is any definitive answer, beyond a reasonable doubt, as to what Gods name really is.


- JC

Interesting post OP

Jehovah is a title though I would not say it's God's name. Even when asked He prefers to be I Am, if I remember my quotes quite well. But that's a little nit-picky on my part.

To answer Blue's question- couldn't one consider all times to be critical for mankind when bringing the Gospel is concerned? Since according to Matthew 24:36 we do not know the time or the day in which God will start the bowl a rolling- shouldn't we be witnessing and doing our best to see the coming of the Kingdom? (Mind I don't mean arming up and starting Armageddon, or such.)

reply to post by Joecroft


Joecraft, The transliteration of God's name as Jehovah has been used for centuries. The Bible states:


(Romans 10:13) . . .For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”



(Joel 2:32) And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe;



(Zephaniah 3:9) For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’



(Acts 2:21) And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’


That it is Jehovah's personal name he himself stated:


(Exodus 3:15) . . .‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.


IT is a name, not a title, like God or LORD, and Jehovah himself states that Jehovah is his name to time indefinite.

He used it over 7,000 times in the Bible. And he has raised up witnesses for his name, there is no doubt he wants his name to be made known:


(Isaiah 43:10-11) . . .YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”


Jehovah himself said that he will magnify his name and make everyone know it before the end:


(Ezekiel 38:23) . . .And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’


We are now living in the time period Jehovah has his witnesses preaching worldwide about his incoming heavenly government in Jesus' hands. Now is the time of the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy about the conclusion of the system of things. NEVER before in history has Jehovah had witnesses for his name publically preaching earthwide, and never again will it happen.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


There is no mistaking. No one can see God's face. Jehovah himself told Moses:

(Exodus 33:20) . . .And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.”

Also, the apostle John, after Jesus went to heaven reaffirmed that no one had ever seen God:


(John 1:18) . . .No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.


As for occurences in the Bible where God's servants say they have seen him, they are not talking about literally seeing his face. Obviously his angels are his representatives. Thus they refer to seeing the manifestation of God's glory.

We know that it was not Jehovah who Moses saw, and it was not literally God who gave him the law on Mt. Siani, for the Bible itself states:

(Galatians 3:19) . . .it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.

(Hebrews 2:2) . . .For if the word spoken through angels. . .


When Moses' see Jehovah's glory in the burning bush, again it was the representation of God's glory that Moses saw. For the scripture says: “the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush." Exodus 3:2.

If you read the scriptures it becomes apparent that Jehovah never dealt directly with any human. Even Adam was spoken to by a mediator. The only three accounts in the scripture where Jehovah directly speaks and is heard by anyone were the three times he confirmed that Jesus was his son, whom he had approved.

I would be happy to hear any other of these so-called discrepancies you have and will politely correct your understanding about them, if you are so inclined.

I would be happy to hear any other of these so-called discrepancies you have and will politely correct your understanding about them, if you are so inclined.

Actually im still waiting

Originally posted by Calender
Why do you think the Churches of Christendom do not use my name Jehovah? They in their stupidity believe that they have cunningly removed my name from their Bibles and hearts so as to mislead the people to believe their false pagan teachings and philosophies of men such as the Trinity, as if I am three people in one. But I only allowed them to be deluded in their delusions. They do not use my name Jehovah, because I no longer allow them to.

Thank you for this great post, I really feel God's word in here. My only problem is that I assume in this paragraph that He is referring to my church, and the doctrine taught by most baptist churches about the holy spirit...
My question is, if the trinity isn't true then why does God refer to Himself as 'Us' and 'Our' in Genesis 1?

"26And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.' "

Who is 'Us' (captalized to represent God) referring to if God is not a trinity? If He was referring to Himself would He not use the word 'Me'?

And what about in matthew 28:19?
"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
Why are people baptized in all three God forms?


and what about here?
"I and the Father are one." (john 10:30)


and this...?
"If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." ( John 10:37-38)


and this?..."Hear O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one." ( Mark 12:29)

Originally posted by freedish
Thank you for this great post, I really feel God's word in here. My only problem is that I assume in this paragraph that He is referring to my church, and the doctrine taught by most baptist churches about the holy spirit...
My question is, if the trinity isn't true then why does God refer to Himself as 'Us' and 'Our' in Genesis 1?

"26And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.' "

Who is 'Us' (captalized to represent God) referring to if God is not a trinity? If He was referring to Himself would He not use the word 'Me'?

And what about in matthew 28:19?
"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
Why are people baptized in all three God forms?


and what about here?
"I and the Father are one." (john 10:30)


and this...?
"If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." ( John 10:37-38)


and this?..."Hear O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one." ( Mark 12:29)

edit on 6-1-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-1-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)

Freedish. Jesus said this also:


(John 17:20-21) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.


Use your mind. In what way did Jesus want his followers to be one with him, as he is with Jehovah. Is it that he wants them to be the same person? Or in unison?

Here is the truth:


(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

The scripture in Mark 12:29 is quoting the Hebrew scripture Deuteronomy 6:4. Your Bible removed Jehovah's name and replaced it with the title LORD. Whenever you see the titles LORD or GOD in all caps that means they purposefully removed Jehovah's name and replaced it with the title. Here is the real rendering of that scripture:


(Deuteronomy 6:4) . . .“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The LORD our God is one LORD. - You have been deceived.

(Mark 12:29) Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,

Edit to add--
When I tell my son, "Let us go fishing" I am not talking to myself. Obviously when Jehovah said "let us make man in our image" he was talking to someone other than himself. The logical conclusion was that it was his first creation.


Also you may have trouble reconciling the fact that no one has ever seen God if Jesus is God. Also with the fact that the Devil tempted Jesus three times, if Jesus was God. As God cannot be tempted. Logic tells us Jesus was correct when he said that he worships the same God his followers worship:


(John 20:17) . . .‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’. . .

Jesus' God is my God. Jesus' Father is Jehovah. Jesus has a God just like you or me. The truth is that worship of Jesus is tantamount to creature worship. Something disgusting in God's eyes, and dishonors Jesus and his name.

As you yourself quoted: God Jehovah is one. Not three. One.

Originally posted by Akragon

I would be happy to hear any other of these so-called discrepancies you have and will politely correct your understanding about them, if you are so inclined.

Actually im still waiting

Akragon, like you said in your first post, you're not here to discuss the OP, you're here to derail it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I would answer anything anyone honestly wants answered. I ignore trolls. I made an exception because you said you are still waiting. If you are serious let me know, otherwise I doubt you'll be getting any more replies.

If I am wrong, then I apologize.

reply to post by Calender

Originally posted by Calender

(Joel 2:32) And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe;

(Zephaniah 3:9) For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah, in order to serve him shoulder to shoulder.’

(Exodus 3:15) . . .‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.

(Ezekiel 38:23) . . .And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

(Isaiah 43:10-11) . . .YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

All the above verses are talking about using God’s literal name but this is before the arrival of Jesus and the New Testament.

Originally posted by Calender
IT is a name, not a title, like God or LORD, and Jehovah himself states that Jehovah is his name to time indefinite.

Yes, I’m aware God’s name was not a title but the exact pronunciation has been lost over time.

"YHVH" is the Hebrew word that translates as "LORD". Found more often in the Old Testament than any other name for God (approximately 7,000 times), the title is also referred to as the "Tetragrammaton," meaning the "The Four Letters". YHVH comes from the Hebrew verb "to be" and is the special name that God revealed to Moses at the burning bush. "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM; and He said, thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you... this is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations'" (Exodus 3:14-15). Therefore, YHVH declares God's absolute being - the source of everything, without beginning and without end. Although some pronounce YHVH as "Jehovah" or "Yaweh," scholars really don't know the proper pronunciation.

Source

Originally posted by Calender
(Romans 10:13) . . .For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

(Acts 2:21) And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’

First of all I should point out that I don’t accept the trinity doctrine. But the men who wrote the verses above, used the word “Lord” to refer to Jesus. Unlike the time of the Old Testament, where Gods name was called upon, the only way to come to God now, is through Jesus. Irrespective of how God’s name is pronounced, no one comes to the Father/God, except through the Son.


- JC

reply to post by Calender


You make a good argument, but for now I will pray and trust God to give me the answers. If He can speak to you He can (and has) speak to me.

reply to post by Akragon


I'm taking my short break on 18 hour workdays, no time for a long enough response.

Many arguments have been made about God's name, it is subject I have spent many hours of research into the Hebrew itself. But generally the bible's that do use Gods name do use Jehovah for the English. And there is a reason for this, most names in the bible that used to use the Hebrew Y have been converted to J with it's creation when English was developing as a language. So basically for consistency sake that is why it has been used for about 500 years.

Madness is correct about Tyndale introducing it into the English Lexicon of words, but since it really had just began to develop the word never existed before this in English.

The Great Vowel Shift that began in the south of England in the 15th century is one of the historical events that mark the emergence of Modern English from Middle English.

Jehovah is an anglicized representation...and...vocalization of the Tetragrammaton.

The Hebrew vocalization is Yahweh or Yehowah.

Here is just a small sampling of my research

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From this chart highlighted at the top, three exact characters always equals the same pronunciation and letters "JEHO".
This is very important because many say we can't pronounce God's name because we don't have vowels, but with all the other names we do and there is not issue with them.

Here is the end part
ה Heh = 'H'; sometimes silent at the beginning or the end of a word.

Hakarat Tovah (Hebrew) תודה =Tovah

The Hebrew word for "Gratitude" notice again the same character this time at the end of the word, remember Hebrew is the reverse to English, now we did the other half of the word pronounced the "VAH" part.

Psalms 83:18 is verse that many bibles actually use Jehovah.

King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

The Bible in Living English
And know it is you alone that are named Jehovah, on high over all the earth.

The New World Translation
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Literal Translation Bible
And let them know You rule; Your name is Jehovah, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

New Simplified Bible
That they may know that you alone, whose name is Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth.

American King James Version
That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth.

Darby Bible Translation
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth.

English Revised Version
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
And they know that Thou -- (Thy name is Jehovah -- by Thyself,) Art the Most High over all the earth!

American Standard Version
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.

Geneva Study Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

If you want to say Jehovah is wrong in English then basically your saying the bible is wrong, and that is easy for an atheist to think that way, but much harder for a christian to, really.

Originally posted by Akragon
i could say so much about this thread but im not posting to derail it...

I will say one thing though, i knew quite a few people from this "group" of people "God" refers to in this post. They're anything but holy...most of them are full of judgements and prejudice.

*sigh*

Please read again Op.....Not....here....to...derail....post

reply to post by Blue_Jay33




First of all, thanks for describing the grammaticism of the name Jehovah.

Nice post

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
If you want to say Jehovah is wrong in English then basically your saying the bible is wrong, and that is easy for an atheist to think that way, but much harder for a christian to, really.

Maybe God’s name is Jehovah, I’m not saying it’s wrong, it’s just that I don’t know for sure.
My main point to the OP was that God’s name was called upon in the Old Testament, but things are different now, because we are meant to reach God through the Son/Jesus.


(Acts 2:21) And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’


The thing I can’t understand is why the word “Lord” is being translated as Jehovah in the above verse and possibly other verses in the NT by JW’s. The word “LORD” in capitals is used to infer that it’s God/Father/Jehovah, but in the above verse, its lower case i.e. “Lord.”, which always denotes Jesus. The verse would then translate differently, and it becomes the name of Jesus, which we call upon and not the name Jehovah.

It seems to me like the JW’s are accepting the trinity, by translating the word “Lord”, in the above verse, to Jehovah/God. Now I know that JW’s don’t accept the trinity, because they see Jehovah/God and Jesus as separate, so why do they not translate verses similar to that above, in Jesus name or even Yeshua?, or maybe just leave it as “Lord” (lower case)

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but if so, then what?


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


You have "LORD", "Lord", God and god, two of them represent the Almighty and two don't in most translations.

For example the NIV Bible says this of Psalm 83:18

Let them know that you, whose name is the LORD--that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Also remember this

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - a little conversation that was most accurate.

Professor Henry Jones: The Word of God.
Marcus Brody: No, Henry. Try not to talk.
Professor Henry Jones: The Name of God.
Indiana Jones: The Name of God... Jehovah.
Professor Henry Jones: But in the Latin alphabet, "Jehovah" begins with an "I".
Indiana Jones: J-... [he steps on the "J" and almost falls to his death; he scrambles back up]
Indiana Jones: Oh, *idiot*! In Latin Jehovah begins with an "I"!

Latin - Iehova (1428 AD)

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reply to post by Joecroft


Joecraft,

Remember that the quote that Jesus was making was from the Hebrew scriptures at Deuteronomy 6:4. Now we know that the divine name Jehovah was used in the original. Did Jesus follow the tradition of the Jews and hide Jehovah's name when quoting from the Hebrew scriptures? That cannot be the case for on the night he was to die he told Jehovah in prayer:


(John 17:6) . . .“I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. . . .

Yes, Jesus publicly witnessed about Jehovah's name, and made his name known. In fact the very first part of the Lord's prayer shows us the importance that Jesus has put on his Father's name:

(Matthew 6:9) “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.


Now we know that Jesus quoted from the Greek Septuagint the then existing translation of the Hebrew scriptures. The fact that it used God's personal name Jehovah and not the title Lord or God is seen in fragments that have survived from the first century where the Tetragrammaton (the four Hebrew consonants, YHWH, or JHVH) are preserved faithfully from the Hebrew source.

So with good reason we have confidence that Jesus faithfully quoted the original source. Investigation shows there should be no doubt about it.

Notice what George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, 1977, p. 63:

“Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God’s name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for N[ew] T[estament] studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name. In the following pages we will set forth a theory that the divine name, יהוה (and possibly abbreviations of it), was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the O[ld] T[estament] and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate [abbreviation for Ky′ri‧os, “Lord”]. This removal of the Tetragram[maton], in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Lord Christ’ which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself.”

The basis for using the Divine name Jehovah at Mark 12:29 as Jesus accurately quoted it from the Hebrew source can be found in the following:

J7-14,16-18,20-24

J7 Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb., by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599.
J8 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London, 1661.
J9 Gospels, Heb. and Lat., by Giovanni Battista Jona, Rome, 1668.
J10 The New Testament . . . in Hebrew and English, by Richard Caddick, Vol. I-III, containing Matthew—1 Corinthians, London, 1798-1805.
J11 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Thomas Fry and others, London, 1817.
J12 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Greenfield, London, 1831.
J13 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by A. McCaul, M. S. Alexander, J. C. Reichardt and S. Hoga, London, 1838.
J14 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt, London, 1846.
J16 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt and J. H. R. Biesenthal, London, 1866.
J17 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Franz Delitzsch, London, 1981 ed.
J18 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Isaac Salkinson and C. D. Ginsburg, London.
J20 A Concordance to the Greek Testament, by W. F. Moulton and A. S. Geden, fourth ed., Edinburgh, 1963.
J21 The Emphatic Diaglott (Greek-English interlinear), by Benjamin Wilson, New York, 1864, reprint by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1942.
J22 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by United Bible Societies, Jerusalem, 1979.
J23 Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. Bauchet, Rome, 1975.
J24 A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter, London, 1863.

Also for proof that the divine name was indeed in the Greek Septuagint which was available to Jesus when he was on earth, and no doubt read from see the following:

LXX Septuagint, Gr., third and second cent. B.C.E., H.S. (A. Rahlfs, Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart, 1935).

it has a 'JW' smell to it, not sure if you'd like to post ALL the scriptures to back up that story, but, any true christian would.

as for

Q – I have another question for you. What happens to us when we die? G – You cease to exist. When you die it is as if the light to a candle has been put out, it ceases. For the dead are conscience of nothing.

hmmmm.. you surely have miss this one truth about being a Christian.. that TRUTH is ..

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

and upon this 'candle' as you put it, has already been snuffed out .. according to the scripture based upon, Adam & Eve's account, which in fact is True Christian teachings, not sure what your driving at here but, it does add up to be 'Christian' from my teaching and understanding and study..

to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..

and the holy trinity.. yep it's there .. actually right under your nose in Mathew LOL. but.. you can look that up..

reply to post by Komodo


Since you requested it, I made the reference list of scriptures used for the OP. A condensed one, but none-the-less complete enough for everything found there. I will also edit the OP to add the references.

******[Edit to add - I cannot edit the OP anymore, so this is the reference of scriptures referred to in the OP]


(Psalm 83:18) That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

(Exodus 3:14-15) . . .At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses:. . .


(Psalm 90:2) . . .Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.



(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.


(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.


(2 Chronicles 2:5-6) . . .for our God is greater than all the [other] gods. 6 And who could retain power to build him a house? For the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him, . . .



(John 4:24) . . .God is a Spirit, . . .


(1 Chronicles 29:17) . . .And I well know, O my God, that you are an examiner of the heart. . .


(1 Chronicles 28:9) . . .for all hearts Jehovah is searching, and every inclination of the thoughts he is discerning. . . .


(Matthew 6:9) “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.


(Matthew 22:30) 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. . .



(1 Timothy 2:13) . . .For Adam was formed first, then Eve.



(Genesis 2:24) . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.


(Deuteronomy 32:4) . . .The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.


(Habakkuk 1:13) . . .You are too pure in eyes to see what is bad; and to look on trouble you are not able.. . .


(Genesis 1:31) After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day.


(Deuteronomy 32:5) . . .They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!

(Ezekiel 28:17) . . .“Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. . . .


(Ezekiel 28:15) . . .You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.


(1 Timothy 3:6) . . .not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil.


(Genesis 3:4-5) . . .At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”


(John 8:44) YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].


(Job 2:4) . . .But Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.


(Revelation 12:10) . . .“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!


(Psalm 78:40) . . .How often they would rebel against him in the wilderness, They would make him feel hurt in the desert!


(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been
forgotten.



(Ecclesiastes 9:10) All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.


(John 5:28-29) . . .Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out. . .


(Isaiah 25:8) . . .He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].


(Daniel 2:44) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;


(Ephesians 1:8-10) . . .This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . . .


(Revelation 14:1) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.
(Revelation 14:3) And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

(Revelation 7:4) . . .And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, . . .


(Revelation 5:9-10) . . .“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”


Revelation 22:5) Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

(Daniel 7:22) . . .until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.


(Daniel 7:27) . . .‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’


(1 Corinthians 15:25-28) . . .For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.


(Revelation 20:4) . . .. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.


(Revelation 20:6) . . .but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.


(Revelation 21:4) . . .And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


(Romans 10:13) . . .For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”


(Proverbs 18:10) . . .The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous runs and is given protection.


(John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. . . .


(Psalm 119:160) The substance of your word is truth, And every righteous judicial decision of yours is to time indefinite.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

(2 Corinthians 4:4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.


(Revelation 12:9) So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth

(2 Corinthians 11:14-15) . . .And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.


(John 14:30) . . .I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,


(2 Timothy 3:13) 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.


(Matthew 7:21-23) . . .“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.


(2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) . . .Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.


(John 13:35) By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

(Matthew 7:20) . . .Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].


(Galatians 5:22-23) On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.


(1 Peter 2:9) . . .But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.


(Malachi 3:17) “And they will certainly become mine,” Jehovah of armies has said, “at the day when I am producing a special property. And I will show compassion upon them, just as a man shows compassion upon his son who is serving him.


(Isaiah 43:10-11) “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

(1 John 4:8) He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.


(2 Peter 1:20-21) . . . For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.


(Acts 17:27) . . .for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.


(Isaiah 2:2-3) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.


(Psalm 2:8) . . .Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.


(John 18:36) . . .“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”


(John 15:19) . . .If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.


(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.


(Ephesians 4:17-18) . . .This, therefore, I say and bear witness to in [the] Lord, that YOU no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds, 18 while they are in darkness mentally, and alienated from the life that belongs to God. . .


(Ephesians 2:2) . . .in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.


(Philippians 2:15) 15 that YOU may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom YOU are shining as illuminators in the world,


(Matthew 5:14) “YOU are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when situated upon a mountain.


(Ephesians 5:8) for YOU were once darkness, but YOU are now light in connection with [the] Lord. Go on walking as children of light,


(Psalm 115:4-8) . . .Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. 7 Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. 8 Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them.


(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


(Proverbs 2:1-5) . . .My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, 2 so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; 3 if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God.


(James 4:8) . . .Draw close to God, and he will draw close to YOU. . . .