posted on Oct, 5 2004 @ 09:25 AM
Hello, St Udio:
What do you mean by A.C. ("antiChrist" ?).
As far as I am able to ascertain, there is NO mention of a term called "Anti-Christ" or Anti-Christ like figure in the texts of the Apocalypse of
Yohanon the Elder (Book of Revelation), at least not in any known Greek Texts (and the Greek in the Text is VERY bad Greek)...
This term IS found in some of the smoother Greek of the "John the Elder" letters (I John 2:18-19, 2 John 1:7) but not in the "Book of Revelation",
which was NOT written in the same kind of Greek, and appears unfinished (or at any rate highly unpolished to say the least).
There IS mention of a BEAST (and other beasts), and a DRAGON and a SERPENT (and a marginalium that someone scribbled into the sides of a MS which
says, "that old Serpent who is called the Devil and Satan" but no figure called A.C. (AntiChrist).
Where did you get this?
Now to the rest of the group on this threadwho seem confused about the ideas of the socalled "Rapture of the Saints" and the Plagues and Tribulation
in the socalled "Book of Revelation" and how to square the two conflicting ideas....
The "Rapture of the Saints" derived from the socalled Pauline circles, whereas the socalled "Tribulation Theology" (that we see in Mark chapter 13
and parallels as well as in the "Book of Revelation" seems to have come from Nazorean circles who still obeyed the Torah even though they accepted
Iesous as a messiah herald type of figure: these two opposing groups were a major schism in the earliest churches--and they had different
theologies---because they evolved and grew in different soil and in different languages
(The Nazoreans spoke and preached mainly in Galilean Aramaic and early proto-Mishnaic Hebrew and used the Aramaic targums as their Old Testament
Scriptures, VERSUS the Pauline TORAH FREE churches in Asia Minor, who preached and communciated mainly in 1st century Koine Greek of the Diaspora---
and used the Greek LXX Septuaginta versions of the Old Testament as their Scriptures, which did not match the text of the Targums).
So you can see early on, there was quite a rift between the earliest Nazorean Torah obeying disciples of "Jesus" and the Greek Rapture Preachering
non-Torah supporting "Christians" among the circle of Paul.
Paul's views were often very much at odds with the Nazorean Jerusalem Churches headed up by James the brother of "Iesous" and "Peter" with whom
he fought bitterly (see Galatians chapter 2, "those so-called Pillars !")
Also: the person who wrote the so-called "Rapture of the Saints" attributed to Saul of Tarsus (1 Thessalonians 4:13 to 4:17--but he might be quoting
an old kerygmatic Messianic End of Days formula that he inherited---
i.e. they may not be Paul's own made up words and phrases, but someone else's that he is quoting here) ---and the Rapture Passage does NOT seem to
be aware of the kind of ideas/theology expressed in the muddled texts of the book of "Revelation" ---which seems to think the innocent saints and
the guilty sinners will be both present on earth during all the 10 Neo-Plagues of Neo-Egypt before the Neo-Exodus of the Saints "in the last days"
who will eventually inhabit the New Jerusalem Temple City once the Tiqqun ("regeneration") happens...and it literally falls from the sky----or so
these 1st century wackos believed
(some still do ! But then again, look how all that kind of thinking turned out in AD 70.....!)
[This is also the kind of theology expressed in someof the Dead Sea Scrolls...]
Here is a translation of the Formula of the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians:
The ideas here do not jive very well with the gloom and doom of the writer of the Apocalypse--which shows that the earliest churches were muddled
about the actual future course of "the Tribulation" etc.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like all the others who have no
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet.
The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord
Mixing and matching the different and muddled early chrsitian theologies in different cities (Ephesus, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome, Laodecea,
Thessalonike, Corinth, Smyrna, Galatia etc.) is a dangerous occupation since each church was like its own city-state in some ways in the 1st and 2nd
centuries with their own ideas, which did not match each other very closely...
One almost is tempted to speak of "Judaiesms" and "Chrisiianities" in the plural rather than the singular when trying to piece together a history
of beliefs for the earliest Christian churches---and the Pauline churches were bitterly opposed to the Torah Abiding Nazorean Churches...and it was
the Nazorean Torah Abiders ("Judaeisers") who were responsible for the language and ideas/weltanschauung of the Book of Revelation, NOT the
anti-nomian Pauline churches which Jesus' own brother James (the head of the Nazorean church in Jerusalem) considered heretical...
So mixing the two different schools together (Paul's and James' Nazorean theologies) can make a real mess of things...unless you know a little of
the history behind the texts....
Which can be an uphill battle sometimes on these threads, I'm afraid....!