Originally posted by factfinder38
I am not sure people do know right and wrong. If you look at societies that are undevloped in any way the only rules are survival and if it feels good do it. Now with the recent trend in society to denounce religion we will revert to the if it feels good do it theory of survival of the fitest and annimal behavior.

I disagree - take a close look at underdeveloped societies and indiginous peoples. No matter how underdeveloped they seem to you and I they do have a structure, a hierarchy so to speak - they have a leader or group of leaders, they all have their specific role in their community, they have rules, rites and rituals and order. I don't know why you believe that they don't. If religion is a made-up thing to keep order - how did the founders know right from wrong? Who taught them?

I propose that it is just the opposite - religion has not saved the world but caused more bloodshed and hatered than any ideology or lack of it.

Ok some of you have made a good argument about my comment on undevloped society and so I must agree that it was a misleading statement when trying to make the point. But I must stand by the fact that we are animals and therfore behave as such. How anyone came up with religion I am not sure but without it we go back to survival of the strongest with no morals toward anyone other than our own family unit.{just like animals} If you travel to a few third world countries you would soon see how obvious this becomes.

Originally posted by factfinder38
Ok some of you have made a good argument about my comment on undevloped society and so I must agree that it was a misleading statement when trying to make the point. But I must stand by the fact that we are animals and therfore behave as such. How anyone came up with religion I am not sure but without it we go back to survival of the strongest with no morals toward anyone other than our own family unit.{just like animals} If you travel to a few third world countries you would soon see how obvious this becomes.

You have disproven your own point here. If we are animals that do what comes naturally - and man created religion then the creation of religion and the morlas it teaches are a natural human output. So, even if no one had written it down and tried to shove it down your throat - we would naturally understand right from wrong - we are nturally moral animals.

In fact, take a look at animals, say cats (my favorite) - they don't typically commit horrific acts. They don't murder their own kind just for some weird personal gratification, they protect and nurter their young, they are capable of love and afection (despite what many men may say) , they don't lie - if they don't want you to bug them they just let you know, and I have yet to see one hold up a liquor store. Yet they do not have religion - there are no temples built by cats, there are no holy books written by cats - yet they are basically moral and good by nature.

Lets see you must live in the city and have a house cat because cats are one of the best natural born killers there is. Grow up on a farm and you would see this because cats do eat there young or kill the young of other cats for dominance and rights to breed. By the way Bunnies kill and eat there young also. So far the only difference I see is that we have the ability to speak and promote our ideals to the masses through eons of learned behavior.

FactFinder I think you are spot on in the first post. I realy honestly believe this to be true. Thank you for the thread

The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot. --Mark Twain

Good Question.
If you take a look at all books set with religion most of the main aspects mean good or as we know as good, like the ten commandments etc.
But over the many years the books were added to by greedy people maybe greedy ( profits ) Who would use this power of religion for their on justification etc..
I always thought the the bible koran etc was a little fact surronded by mass fiction.
What I say maybe true or maybe false but again religion is belife so unless you believe you can always be sceptical about alomst anything the bible koran etc say...

No I was created to do just the opposite to confuse him and put him at odds with his fellow man ,to occupy his time with wastfull dogma , and doctrine which exist only when the powerfull trace their own shadows in the sand and then demand that no-one else do the same. The truthful pursuit of knowledge comes when there are no preconceived misconceptions clouding judgment.

Originally posted by factfinder38
Lets see you must live in the city and have a house cat because cats are one of the best natural born killers there is. Grow up on a farm and you would see this because cats do eat there young or kill the young of other cats for dominance and rights to breed. By the way Bunnies kill and eat there young also. So far the only difference I see is that we have the ability to speak and promote our ideals to the masses through eons of learned behavior.

Points well taken about the animals - however, I was not trying to show that we are NOT animals but only that moral behavior is a natural (animal) instinct. I still contend that most animals are naturally moral just as humans are even though animals don't have religion. You point out that cats kill - yes they do, I have seen it but as I said, it is not for "personal gratification" as in a human serial killer. It is either to eat or to ensure the survival of the species (as in the dominant male ensuring his genes will be passed on by breeding, or preventing overpopulation, or eliminating the weak and defective, it is survival tactics).

But I think our discussion has taken a wrong turn - I only wish to agree with you that we are animals, with natural instincts. And disagree that religion is the only way we have morals - becase man created religion so man created morals, thus man is generally moral by nature.

Originally posted by factfinder38
Does anyone think that religion was created to keep mankind from destroying itself.

My assumptions are as follows:

All the different religions on this earth are various cultural interpretations of a universal truth which has been obscured from view by ignorant confusion which stops the human race progressing to the next stage of development.

We are still arguing over concepts which we have no true understanding.

So many people have died because of the differences religion creates between human beings.

George Bush is spearheading his re-election with a constitutional change banning gay marriage when this is so obviously a human rights abuse; he does this because of his religious beliefs, not because of common sense and goodwill to ALL mankind.

Children in a room will argue and fight because they lack communication and social skills, but they don't strangle each other to death.

Hatred has to be taught.

I don't deny the mystery and magic that can be felt on waking from a beautiful dream that stays with you throughout the day, teasing with the memory of another place; or the feeling of watching a glorious sunrise over a blue sea on a windy beach.

However, I do deny the person that tells me eternal damnation waits for me because I believe there's something MORE than what these charletans parade as the after-life that they know NOTHING about.



[edit on 13-7-2004 by shanti23]

Was religion created to save mankind?

First off, ill start by saying that I am a non-denominational Christian, raised in a Presbyterian church. I believe that God wants to save mankind from itself, and that is why he sent his son to die for all of us. However, as is the was of humanity, we found a way to screw this up. Even those who believed eventually fell into sin and started to create rules that were claimed to be the word of God, but they were not. There are references to this in the Bible, the pharisies (sp?), and if anyone wishes i can try to find them. I think that the word "religion" is more concerned with the system, rather than the beliefs. My beliefs come from my experience with "religion", but my religion did not dictate my beliefs. They simply steered me in the right direction, and then God worked in my heart and my soul so that i could find him.

I believe that what started out as the truth which would allow mankind to be saved, was used by the enemies of good and right so that evil could survive in the world. Religious wars are the result of greed, arrogance, and sin, in my opinion. But that is not to say that they are "wrong" because we live in a world of sin, and so maybe religious wars (evil) in necessary to bring about the greater good. I can only make educated guesses based on my beliefs here, because i can't presume to understand fully what God has planned for the world. I can only have faith that he knows what is best for me and that he is merciful.

Religion was not created to save mankind, it was created to inform mankind that it needed to be saved in the first place.

Originally posted by shanti23
My assumptions are as follows:

All the different religions on this earth are various cultural interpretations of a universal truth which has been obscured from view by ignorant confusion which stops the human race progressing to the next stage of development.[edit on 13-7-2004 by shanti23]

Shanti23 - I agree on this point. That there are "universal truths" that all humans see and understand and even agree on. And further it is the human factor - some man claiming to have some added secret knowledge that no one else has - that causes all the strife. And it is this human factor that is responsible for "religon".