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Some references in regards to Geo Engineering to examine

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posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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Being a layman when it comes to many scientific terms, I can only read and try to absorb what is available when searching for documents from a Geo Engineering tagged search, granted this has only recently been heard by me so I am most likely way behind the curve, but it is intriguing to see how far the scientific community is willing to mess with mother nature.

From my limited knowledge it seems that this new research into ways of combating global warming is based off of ideas to make the planet Mars habitable, but now that is being focused on how to manipulate Earth's environment.

I stumbled upon two very interesting documents from a search of NASA, that delves into the Geo Engineering research, and I wanted to let the members get a chance to download them, read and make up their own minds as to the impact.

One is a pdf file and the other is a ppt (powerpoint presentation..)

Here is one of the images off of the pdf file pg 13 of 18:

right click open in new window for fullsize

The idea being the introduction of sulfer based vapors into the stratosphere via aircraft, preferrably over the equator in the months of Jun, July & August.

Here's the link to that file from 2010... *** remember it's a pdf file


Geoengineering by Stratospheric Sulfur Injection and Volcanic ...


The next image is from a Powerpoint presentation from 2008, slide 30 of 50 which is from the portion of that presentation discussing cloud seeding as another way to help reflect heat from the planet, while it doesn't say that this is actively happening, those pics sure appear to be real, and they do remind me of what some call chemtrails, now if you inject NaCl into the troposphere to induce a weather event, is that technically a chemtrail? Here's the pic:


right click open in new window for fullsize

This is an interesting presentation and if you have powerpoint you can get the file here:

Geo - Engineering Climate Change with Sulfate Aerosols - NASA

I have my own CT thoughts on this whole research deal, since I have alot more digging to do on this matter myself, I will refrain from jumping to conclusions and let members take a look for themselves.

Heck this could already be old news to you guys and gals it's so hard to keep up with you these days





edit on Mon, 03 Jan 2011 18:12:00 -0600 by JacKatMtn because: clarity




posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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WOW, JacKatMtn.... nobody has responded to this yet! Either they're stilll reading, don't get it, or like me they're speechless. Download the files & take a look people!

Am I misinterpretting what you've found here, or are these two files documented evidence of a) the theory & implementation of cloud seeding/global weather modification b) past test results from deliberate & massive weather modification straight from the horses mouth? Some of these pictures & graphs seem to be case studies of high altitude spraying of sulphuric acid gas & probably other cloud seeding/albedo increasing chemicals.

Gonna go back & read some more of this.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by HelionPrime
 


The only part that seems to be happening is the cloudseeding deal, from the powerpoint presentation, which wouldn't be a new deal, but, at least for me would explain some of the trail formations that are often just dismissed as contrails.

I will have to find it but their is another current cloud seeding project in the Walker Dam area that I stumbled upon last night that has to do with ground launched silver iodide? to increase snowfall so as to keep the water levels up..

The rest of the presentations don't say that the sulfer vapors are being implemented, only that they have seemed to concluded that it is a feasible solution, and that more impact studies need to be completed before such a program is implemented..

That's when my CT kicks in, and like I said I need to try and find some more info, I just wanted everyone to see these two files for themselves and perhaps some of our scientific members can translate the data that is beyond this hillbillies capabilities
.

I will find that other project and post a link here in a bit..



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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If they CAN do it, you can bet your ass they already DID!
Our weather is all to hell.... human CO2 emissions?... or someone dicking around with the atmosphere??



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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It is silver iodide that they are going to use in the Walker Dam project...

here's the link... ***another pdf file*** it's a cfm file whatever that is but it loads on the page.

CFM file: Walker River Basin Cloud Seeding Assessment




edit on Mon, 03 Jan 2011 19:06:25 -0600 by JacKatMtn because: clarity on file type.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:07 PM
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Cloud seeding using silver iodide has been done for years in the small scale, what's chilling about the satellite image in the ppt file is how similar it looks to what people have been observing globally.
What are they up to?



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:10 PM
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Very interesting documents.
Thanks for posting them.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:59 PM
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here's a couple of news articles... both are from 2008.. the first from China and their attempt to make sure the opening ceremonies of the Olympic games were rain free..


Is China's cloud-seeding plan all wet?

...Chinese officials will reportedly try to force the rain out of the clouds before the opening ceremony. They'll use a process called cloud seeding to clear the smog-filled skies and keep the rain from drenching the athletes and spectators. China has been investigating ways to control the weather for decades, and has invested $500,000 in cloud seeding technologies in the past five years, according to news reports...


Haven't checked to see how the weather was that day, but it's interesting to hear that they would use seeding to stop rain, it doesn't even give the infor on what they would use..

The next article is about another weather modding event in Russia.. this one gives some details of what is used..


In Russia, sometimes it rains cement

..."A pack of cement used in creating ... good weather in the capital region ... failed to pulverize completely at high altitude and fell on the roof of a house, making a hole about 80-100 cm (2.5-3 ft)," police in Naro-Fominsk told agency RIA-Novosti.

Ahead of major public holidays the Russian Air Force often dispatches up to 12 cargo planes carrying loads of silver iodide, liquid nitrogen and cement powder to seed clouds above Moscow and empty the skies of moisture...



Seems that messing with the atmosphere is no big deal... Question remains... How far have they gone?

Keep digging.. and look out for falling cement.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by JacKatMtn
 


Edit, from this later post comment:


Seems that messing with the atmosphere is no big deal... Question remains... How far have they gone?


NO, I think it is a big deal...hence abundance of caution, and even question as to whether they should at all.....I think it's a BAD idea, since we still have much to learn. Meant to add, one clue though, as to effectivity (and I think they touch on this) is the observations from volcanic activites, in past. Seems even with the massive amounts of material that Mother Nature can throw up into the atmosphere, the total global temperature change result is minimal....there are data and articles online, I believe...

SO, on to the rest......Well...basically, first glance, this is similar to many, many other suggested strategies that are being discussed. NOT implemented. I think the recent (and headline-making) UN Resolution regarding GEO....urging to continue to do nothing, until or unless there is International consensus, indicate the concerns that were felt, because this topic has drawn a lot of attention, of late.

Note that the chemical formula "H2SO4" is actually also known as "sulphuric acid". Not sure that's a very user-friendly term they want bandied about in public.......

I have to check, but pretty sure that H2SO4 is already a consequence of petroleum fuels burning....coal, I think mostly. Hence, the "acid rain" concerns, dating back for decades....as the sulphuric acid emitted into the atmosphere, from burning of coal and some other petroleum products, enters the water cycle, to eventually be lifted up into clouds, and rain back down. "Acid" conjure up faces melting off, and all that...but really, the damage is due to PH balance disruptions.

SO.....spraying the sulphur compounds intentionally, into the stratosphere?? As I said, this is just one of the many ideas being thrown our for discussion and comment. I saw an article that Bill Gates...yes, that Bill Gates...was thinking of getting behind, involving large ships on the ocean that were designed to pump up seawater, and loft it as spray into the atmosphere....the normal minerals and salts in the water were to act as nuclei, for condensation and increasing cloud coverage. Seems this scheme, too, would be most effective nearer the Equator.

Another concept involving atmosphere, and airborne deliveries was covered in a thread by zorgon last year....idea is using rockets, instead of airplanes, and going well higher, just above the stratosphere IIRC....thereby, lessening the ground contamination potential. Still, when you consider the sheer size of area, all of these seem implausible...but, I saw that they included some math calculations, which I will try to crunch up.


In any case, that first link? You called it a "pdf", but it seemed to be some PowerPoint slides, after all....the last one, I will point to....asks the "questions" about the advisability, and morality of this idea. Surely, despite many "claims" by some reactionary figures in the so-called "chemtrail" camps, that is an indication that such concerns about "Are they doing it?" are premature. They are discussing, and evaluating. Any actual implementation is certainly going to be public knowledge, and Internationally coordinated in scope, I'd imagine.....


edit on 3 January 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Thanks for the input, I am still troubled that there would be scientists even tossing about this option (H2SO4)..

as far as using salt NaCl, that's what was represented in the ppt presentation, and that is the one that looks like it is being implemented, they also showed a futuristic rendition of a salt water slinging ship that goes to the method you mentioned above.

I guess the main thing that troubles me is this messing with mother nature deal, and while it seemed harmless to try and bring rain to drought ridden areas (cloud seeding) , this rises to another level IMO when trying to manage the environment by creating scenarios that mimic the effects of a volcanic eruption, or by mass seeding to lower global temps..

To be honest, I don't trust those people, especially when $$$$ is involved. Our global govt's don't have a great track record of looking out for the folks. That's probably I will always have a raised eyebrow when they say we need to do things now.

How much of the "green" tech has actually been suppressed for decades due to corporate interests? Now it's an emergency? Is it really, or is it just the right time since the players are positioned to reap HUGE rewards for our so called emergency?



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by JacKatMtn
 


I would be wary of this powerpoint presentation and it's reliability.

Although I can't access it to see the whole thing, this image:



Is showing ship tracks, not cloud seeding.



earthobservatory.nasa.gov...


edit on 3/1/11 by Chadwickus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by Chadwickus
 


Why would a NASA sourced ppt slide show ship tracks in a cloudseeding portion of the presentation?

Unless of course the cloudseeding was the sealaunched salt spray version?



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by JacKatMtn
 


No idea without seeing the rest of the presentation and I don't have a power point reader.

The sulphate from these ship stacks are what's causing the trails though, so they do link in with the first pdf you linked to about using H2SO4 to cool the planet.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:09 PM
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reply to post by Chadwickus
 


It's not from the pdf.. it's from the ppt presentation, and the portion discussing "cloud seeding" the troposphere with NaCl, not the portion discussing the H2SO4 deal in the stratosphere...

but they do show a futuristic ship in another slide, so that could explain it being an ocean launched seeding op, and not an air launched op.

Thanks for the pic


All I am digging for is the truth



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by JacKatMtn
 




All I am digging for is the truth


Amen to that!

Which is why I find it odd they called these ship tracks cloud seeding...Anyway I'm downloading a ppt reader as we speak so I can have a look, to see the context of it all.

Meanwhile, here's some more information about ship tracks, it discusses a study that was carried out if your're interested.

www.bragwebdesign.com...

Starts near the bottom of the PDF


edit on 3/1/11 by Chadwickus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by JacKatMtn
 


Some more quick glances, at the PPT (?) slides:

One of them shows a side-"view", for scale and atmospheric levels....as high as 50 km. One potential delivery method shown, the "high altitude" blimp. Lots of ATS threads on those, the increasing tech for them. They are eminently more feasible than traditional airplanes.

Another slide has a flow-chart of sorts, and one labeled "SO2 at 20km". Well, that's about 12.5 miles, or about 66,000 feet. This is well above most airplanes' abilities, too. The Concorde SST used to cruise around 55,000 maximum. Military jets, like the SR-71 (retired) up to about 70,000 (so they will admit). Point is, in terms of payload carrying ability, getting way to the upper levels of the stratosphere by fixed-wing airplane is just technologically implausible, not if you wish to loft any payload.

I'd suggest the concept of "higher=better" comes form the thinner atmosphere, lower pressures, and lesser wind speeds....winds speed is certainly another reason the "mainstream" (if you can call it that) "chemtrail" theories aren't workable....as is commonly suggested by those folks, at the 25,000- to 35,000-foot level. Disruptive wind patterns are common, those altitudes.

Once again, though....this is ALL the sort of thing that geeks and scientists (probably) love to sit around and conjure up, as "what ifs". And, surely there is no pressing, or urgent need.....no telling IF there's some dangerous "tipping point", as some suggest, that will result in a runaway escalation of global temps. Still, IF that happens, and it's seen as a sort of "Armageddon" situation, then "they" may opt to do something, rather than nothing....and, IF it gets that bad? What's to lose? (But, I'm thinking....this is decades away, if at all....)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:34 PM
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Ok, after going through the PPT I will retract my earlier statement as I now see what they meant by cloud seeding now, they mention ship tracks and also the research by Twomey, which I linked to above.






posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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I wish these were easier to grab


This is the pdf page I believe you were referring to ww..




And you mentioned the Concorde.. which did appear in the ppt presentation along with fighter jets as possible delivery options..




and Chad.. my bad, it did mention ship tracks on a prior slide of the ppt deal



and here's that ship I was talking about..




posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 05:45 PM
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Geo-Engineering
With regards to examining references to geo-engineering. We absolutely need to examine WHY?

What is the problem?
What are 'we' trying to provide a solution for?

-Is it for a depleted ozone?
If so what are the causing factors(cause & effect)?

-Is there an upcoming active sun?

-Is there going to be another war?

-Will it be used for the benefit of pharmaceutical companies?

-Will it be used to hold countries for ransom?

the list goes on...

But yet, there is NO mention for WHY these 'concepts' need to be implemented/tested or even 'examined'. For argument sake, lets say, IF the ozone is depleted bad enough to allow geo-engineering, there must be preventive measures such as clean technology/restrictions set in place first. Or all we'll be doing is dirtying up the water even further.

I have to ask this...
What is the end result that you would like to see, in which you applaud this type of work?

What do you want it to achieve?

Like some of you who applaud this pioneering work as an achievement of intellectual muscle.
I'm sure that a group of top physicists after successfully splitting the atom, once stood and applauded their 'great' achievement.
Briefly.... Then they had an achievement of carrying an historical guilt.

In order to maintain a sustainable planet, there has to be a need & harmonic balance between Nature and technology. Once technology overtakes the harmony, humans will be stealing natural resources(sunlight,rain,etc) from other parts of the world.
As sure as there will be night tonight weather modification/geo engineering will disrupt/destroy chains of life, alter evolution and guarantee a deathly paved road for all!

This isn't a fun high-five & its sure as hell is not a game! You don't go around tinkering w/ nature, because nature has a way of bitch slapping you back to reality. Nature always chalks up the big "W" in the end. If its not broke, then don't fix it. Period!




Once again, though....this is ALL the sort of thing that geeks and scientists (probably) love to sit around and conjure up, as "what ifs". And, surely there is no pressing, or urgent need.....no telling IF there's some dangerous "tipping point", as some suggest, that will result in a runaway escalation of global temps. Still, IF that happens, and it's seen as a sort of "Armageddon" situation, then "they" may opt to do something, rather than nothing....and, IF it gets that bad? What's to lose? (But, I'm thinking....this is decades away, if at all....)
Weedwhacker, this is where we part on seperate paths.

You may burn your tommorrows.
You may stand at the edge of your future.
And you can let your dreams all fade away.
When you are ready, you may surrender.
But I will not let my future
generation do the same.




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