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Let's Have Some Positive Debate...

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posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 03:42 PM
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Seeing as this forum is no longer the mudpit, but "political debate", let's see if we can have just this one thread without any mud slinging, at least for a page or two...

State your political beliefs, and tell us why you hold them, in a positive way. Tell us what is good about your party, if you support one. If you don't affiliate yourself with a party, please contribute by all means - state your political stance, and why you stand by it. I want to hear what's good about your beliefs, not what's bad about other people's - purely as a means of learning more about different political leanings.

Can we try to refrain from...
-Telling us what's wrong with the other party without stating why your beliefs are superior, with good reasons.
-Criticising the current government without offering solutions.

I'm starting this thread because I'm genuinely interested in hearing other people's point of view in a civilised manner. If you want to sling political mud and call Bush a fascist, or Kerry a commie, there's plenty of well established threads on these themes.

I would appreciate responses from people in any country regarding their stance, it doesn't have to be about the American presidential race. I'm looking for an ideological debate.

I'll get the ball rolling...

My political stance is in favour of Democratic Socialism.

I believe in redistribution of a country's wealth among the people, and in funding nationalised public services such as transport, healthcare and, most importantly, education with taxpayers money. I believe in higher taxes for the wealthy. I believe in extensive civil rights and freedoms. I believe that a government should involve the people in all important decisions, and elections should be free and regular.
I'm generally anti-war, as there are almost always other, peaceful solutions. I think this is right because I believe redistribution to be fair, and that the current difference in income between upper and lower classes is far too great. I think people should have the right to control their own bodies and what they do with them as they are their own and nobody else's.

Above all, I believe the place of the government should be as the servants of the people, never the other way around.

What about everyone else?


[edit on 7-7-2004 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]




posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 05:16 PM
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Good topic Cider!

I'm also a supporter of Demcratic Socialism, It's probably the most pragmatic system of government, borrowing the best from Capitolist Democracy and Socialism.

I believe that people should be free and have liberty, but also that the rich have more of a resposiblity to society and therefor should be expected to help those less-fortunate, and the government should reflect this.

There should never be a nation that can take care of there poor but chooses not to, that is terribly unethical. Government should do the best it can for all citizens, helping all of the citizens to lead the best lives they can.

Education should be a prime concern of the government, all citizens should have the right to a free and quality education up to whatever level they wish. They should also be healthy, again healthcare should be a concern for the government.

I beileve that diplomacy could solve many of the problems in our world today, war should always be of last resort. I am not saying that I would never support a war, WWII was one I believe needed to be fought, but all other options should be exausted first.

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral



posted on Jul, 7 2004 @ 06:24 PM
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CiderGood_HeadacheBad says

My political stance is in favor of Democratic Socialism.


LMFAO! You think you are going to have a civilized discussion in this forum with a statement like that? Let me remind you what happened on this forum when Hillary Clinton stated, in reference to rescinding Bush's tax cuts, "We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." The right-wing nutcases went beserk, and we had a thread with the title "Hillary Clinton Embraces Communism."

Another right-wing nutcase on this forum has in his signature "John Kerry is a Communist Stooge." How can you have a civilized discussion with people who label anyone who disagrees with them as a communist, a traitor, or a terrorist sympathizer?

I predict you will be severely flamed by the usual suspects. Although perhaps my post will cause them to be on their best behavior.



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 07:16 AM
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donguillermo I find your post offensive and insulting. To say that only those who agree with your opinin are capable of informed and reasoned debate is quite simply bigotry.



Cider good headache bad- I consider myself to be a republican.

I believe that those who work the hardest to be successful deserve to enjoy the fruits of thier labors. That those who contribute the most to society have earned the right to have the most privaleges.

I believe that those who are unwilling to work to support themselves deserve to be left in the cold.

I believe that each person has a responsibility to provde for themselves and that to expect another to provde for you is to infringe on thier right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happines"

I believe that all children have a right to be born not just those whose mothers want them.

I believe that all people have the right and responsibility to secure thier own safety from crime and criminals.

I believe that all people have a right to basic education for free but that those who have had financial success also have the right to choose to pay for a private education if they wish.

I believe that I have the right to protect my home and my family from all threats with force if need be.

I believe that the difference in income between the rich nd the poor is due to the difference in work ethc, ambition, and intellgence between the two.

I believe I have the right to pass on my wealth to my children as well as the right to provide them with a better education and more opportunities than I had.



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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mwm1331 says


donguillermo I find your post offensive and insulting. To say that only those who agree with your opinin are capable of informed and reasoned debate is quite simply bigotry.


The reason you are offended is because you are one of the right-wing nutcases I am talking about. Another nasty thing you people do is constructing strawman arguments by putting words in people's mouths. Please show me where in my post I said "Only those who agree with my opinion are capable of informed and reasoned debate."

In the future, if you reply to any of my posts, please quote my words exactly. No paraphrases. By claiming I said something I never said, you have shown that you have zero intellectual integrity.



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by donguillermo
Another right-wing nutcase on this forum has in his signature "John Kerry is a Communist Stooge." How can you have a civilized discussion with people who label anyone who disagrees with them as a communist, a traitor, or a terrorist sympathizer?

I predict you will be severely flamed by the usual suspects. Although perhaps my post will cause them to be on their best behavior.


Who are you trying to fool? Regardless of political affliliation I can say that you certain are capable of calling the kettle black.

The signature picture is telling. I find it hard to believe that no one has called you on the fact that you don't think conservatives can have reasonable conversations because we label in a manner you seem to dislike, yet in the same breath label us.

Perhaps you didn't mean to come off as a complete boob and just didn't get your point across too well. I'd advise that you restate your ideas.

Or you can just leave it and look foolish.

Your choice I guess.



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by donguillermo
I predict you will be severely flamed by the usual suspects. Although perhaps my post will cause them to be on their best behavior.


You were the first to do any flaming on this thread.
True, liberals have often been branded terrorists, traitors and communists, but then you're labelling conservatives as right wing nutcases. So by doing this you're inviting them to do the same.

Do you have a political opinion or do you just hate right wingers?



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 03:41 PM
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KrazyJethro says


The signature picture is telling. I find it hard to believe that no one has called you on the fact that you don't think conservatives can have reasonable conversations because we label in a manner you seem to dislike, yet in the same breath label us.


The difference is, I don't call someone a right-wing nutcase because their political views are different than mine. I use that language because they label their political opponents communists, traitors, etc. Many conservatives are capable of reasonable discussion. It's the ones who insist on demonizing their political opponents with radioactive labels like communist and traitor that I stigmatize with the label right-wing nutcases.

Suppose I hear someone using racial epithets and label that person a bigot. Now you come along and say that I am using labels too, so I am also a bigot. Who is coming off as a complete boob, to use your language?




[edit on 7/8/2004 by donguillermo]



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by donguillermo
The difference is, I don't call someone a right-wing nutcase because their political views are different than mine.


Bla bla bla. More words to fill the books and less stories to tell. Such is the way ATS is going I guess. It's really too bad, I like it here.

You label the labeler. If you think nutcase is not venom, you should really look it up.



Suppose I hear someone using racial epithets and label that person a bigot. Now you come along and say that I am using labels too, so I am also a bigot. Who is coming off as a complete boob, to use your language?


I still say it's you.

I never called or infered you were a bigot. I only said you play the same fool's game that some of my fellow conservatives play.

The conservatives you speak of are idiots and jingoists. Do you really want to play that game?

If so then why bother defending yourself?




[edit on 7/8/2004 by donguillermo]



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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KrazyJethro says


The conservatives you speak of are idiots and jingoists.


So if you agree that these people are idiots and jingoists, why do you object to my calling them right-wing nutcases?

By the way, I never claimed you called me a bigot. I was just using the bigot example to show there is such a thing as good labelling and bad labelling.



posted on Jul, 8 2004 @ 05:31 PM
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~sigh~

Some people.

Ok, let me spell it out for you. Grab your speak and spell and follow along.

Don't play their game. This stupid game is being played all across the country and even here on ATS. If you like this place, than aspire to better things that to live with the low lifes.

I can disagree with a thought out arguement, but I won't cater to crap and neither should you.



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 03:18 AM
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LMFAO! You think you are going to have a civilized discussion in this forum with a statement like that? Let me remind you what happened on this forum when Hillary Clinton stated, in reference to rescinding Bush's tax cuts, "We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." The right-wing nutcases went beserk, and we had a thread with the title "Hillary Clinton Embraces Communism."

Another right-wing nutcase on this forum has in his signature "John Kerry is a Communist Stooge." How can you have a civilized discussion with people who label anyone who disagrees with them as a communist, a traitor, or a terrorist sympathizer?

I predict you will be severely flamed by the usual suspects. Although perhaps my post will cause them to be on their best behavior.


your first post uses the inflammatory term "right wing nutcases"
How exactly do you define a right wing nut case? Are all republicans "right wing nutcases"?


The reason you are offended is because you are one of the right-wing nutcases I am talking about. Another nasty thing you people do is constructing strawman arguments by putting words in people's mouths. Please show me where in my post I said "Only those who agree with my opinion are capable of informed and reasoned debate."

In the future, if you reply to any of my posts, please quote my words exactly. No paraphrases. By claiming I said something I never said, you have shown that you have zero intellectual integrity.


You then proceed to call me a "right wing nutcase"
tell me on the basis of what exactly did you find yourself in a position to judge my sanity?
Are you a mental health professional? are you qualified to judge the sanity of another? If you are wht information have you based this diagnosis on?


The difference is, I don't call someone a right-wing nutcase because their political views are different than mine. I use that language because they label their political opponents communists, traitors, etc. Many conservatives are capable of reasonable discussion. It's the ones who insist on demonizing their political opponents with radioactive labels like communist and traitor that I stigmatize with the label right-wing nutcases.

Suppose I hear someone using racial epithets and label that person a bigot. Now you come along and say that I am using labels too, so I am also a bigot. Who is coming off as a complete boob, to use your language?


You then claim that you label one a "right wing nutcase" "because they label thier political opponents communists, traitors etc."
Since you have affixed this label to me I assume you can find and post examples of me doing this. Please do so if you cannot I will expect a retraction of your offensive remarks which were directed towards me.


[edit on 9-7-2004 by mwm1331]



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 04:56 AM
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ok this thread has gotten far off its tracks.

mr guillermo....if you arent going to do anything more than focus on a few people who's comments are a waste of time then please, dont not waste ours who are wanting actual discussion.

and for you to stoop to another persons level that calls democrats communists by calling them right wing nutcases puts you in the same boat.

you have painted yourself into a corner.

if you have something of substance to add to this thread, such as your own polticial beliefs and follow the basic suggestions laid out by the originator of this thread then by all means do it.

but this goes for everyone in this thread that has participated in this BS arguing. if i see any more of this i will lock this thread without ANY hesitation. the originator of this thread has a very good idea here and i think its worth focusing on rather than what "the other side" is saying about us. if we spent half as much energy finding a way to get along and see where others are coming from as we do in fighting and arguing this country would be number one in all respects. fighting doesnt get anyone anywhere.


now i'm going to add to the actual discussion, not this childish argument over who called who what.


i dont have a party and i dont believe in them as SOME people like to paint you with a very broad brush. i am a free thinker and what i believe comes from what i have thought out and feel, not what some party or politician wants me to believe.

i cant label what i believe as what i believe can be viewed by some as ambiguous. i do believe in fiscal conservatism. i do not believe the government should give tax payer dollars to fund the arts, thats what art galleries are for. i do not believe in subsidies or in any way giving tax payer dollars to something without getting something in return to show the american people. i believe the government should be less intrusive in our daily private lives and should not try to tell us how to live. i do not believe the government should be bloated and overrun by bureaucrats. i do not believe we are to serve the government or the politicians, they are there to serve us through the system we approve of (as is our right to abolish our current government and create a new one as laid out in the constitution) i do not believe in mulitmillion dollar political campaigns that even talk about the OTHER candidate, only your own plans and what YOU want to do if put into office. i do not believe other countries or those suffering else where in the world should come before the suffering of those within our own borders. i dont believe our borders should be like a sieve. i do believe that immigrants should learn english and should learn about our country, its history and how our government works. i believe that raising standards in all forms only helps us as a whole and does not hinder us. i believe in education and higher learning standards and practices. i believe in paying teachers more and making parents more responsible for their children learning or not learning. i believe in holding the criminal responsible for his actions, not the weapon he used. i do not believe in frivolous lawsuits such as the old lady who burnt her crotch with a open cup of coffee from mcdonalds. these lawsuits clog up the court system and are a waste of time and more importantly it waste the governments money they collect from us and its costs companies money that they get from us by passing the buck onto us. i believe in strong sentences for violent felons and being more lenient towards non violent offenders such as those sent to prison for being in posession of drugs. i believe drugs should be legal regulated and taxed. i believe that if put into legal hands drugs can be made cheaper, less lethal and less addictive (at least less harmful).

i like the idea that everyone has healthcare but i dont like the idea of more money taken from my already too small paychecks only for it to go to other people. if we do this then why not free housing? or free food? sense technically if we pooled all the money then everyone should be entitled to a fair share even if they didnt work for it right? i feel bad for those who dont have health coverage but i went for years without it and yeah i didnt like that feeling knowing i wouldnt be able to pay for any medical bills if i needed to see a doctor or go to a hospital but i dealt with it, i didnt ask anyone to help me out and i dont believe in it. i also feel bad for htose who dont have enough to eat but i 'm not going to go without just so someone can have some food. thats just displacing the hunger, not fixing it. i like the idea of helping everyone but in reality those who can barely afford for themselves would have even more taken from them and given to others who quite frankly some of whom dont even bother to lift a finger to help themselves.

i believe in the miltary and its role. i am no friend of war and what it can do to people and countries but it is a part of the real world i have to live in. it'd be great if everyone could get along and there wrent people who ruled their people with an iron fist and made them suffer because they let their megalomania get in the way of their country's progression in the world. it'd be great if crazy little dictator didnt feel the need to compensate for their tiny penis or hieght issues by screaming shouting and threatening to create and then launch nuclear weapons. it'd be great if we didnt have evil people in the world who want to kill others. but we sadly we do. in this world we have such people and while we should work to have a peaceful world we wont have one by having no way to respond to those who want to hurt others opress them attack us or our allies. i'm not pro war i am pro reality and if i thought for one minute we could actually have a world without war death suffering or destruction then i could see the point in not having any more wars. but until we get to that point we have to be realistic and have to be ready to face any and all challenges that face us and the world.

ideally i would love to have a world where we all got along but this isnt so. i hope we can get there one day but i have to remain realistic and deal with what happens in THIS world, not what happens in my "fantasy world" where everything is run the way we think it should be run and no problems ever occur.

i believe in personal freedoms and i believe we should choose for ourselves, not have other choose for us or have special interest groups brow beat us and bully us into giving them what they want. i believe that hate is a stupid idea and such negativity is not wanted by me and i avoid it at all costs but certainly if we want to hate someone thing or even a group of people we have that right. i dont agree with using our short time on this earth in such a negative way and obsessing about someone something or a group of people and letting them or it becoming the driving force in our lives to the popint where we no longer see the bigger picture, only what we want to see but i dont have to live such a persons life. if someone wants to hate me for any or no reason (and i cant think of a valid "reason" to hate anyone or anything) then they certainly have the right and say more power to you, i dont have to live their life and what they think of me doesnt bother me in the slightest. i dont have to live with the negativity or the consequences of that negativity. i believe this country is full of people who let themselves be fooled into believing hatred is a good thing. anger when used properly can be a good thing, nothing good comes from hatred however. and i believe it is this hate that has only served to divide us farther and farther apart. my state motto is united we stand divided we fall. as long as we continue to see those with not an opposing view but simply a different view of the world, not just politics then we are divided and we will fall. as we continue to see each other as the enemy because of our beliefs we will never progress or get past these problems that plague us. our differences are not a weakness, it is a strong suit. it is a positive and we must find a way to use it to our advantage, not find a way to use it agaisnt those who dont agree with us.

this is why i dont believe in the two main political parties, they divide and conquer and the elite stay in power and we stay at the bottom and not matter which side is elected, things remain the same. it ISNT the government its the people running that government and its our fault because we put those people there. i believe regardless of our own personal beliefs we should think of other first, what works for us or what we feel would work for us may not work for others. we should support eachother and stick up for US and not THEM and their ideology. if they knew what was best for us then we'd all be in a better position than we are now wouldnt we? are we all happy yet? are we all where we want to be in life? is the government doing what is best for us even if we dont think it is? hell no! i believe in individualism but i also believe in sacrificing my personal feelings and beliefs for the common good. thats why i do NOT tout my opinions to be "it" and "thats the way it is" my opinions are jsut that, opinions, they are not right or wrong and i KNOW there is more than one way to do something. i dont come on this board insult others and act as if MY opinions and beliefs are the only ones that matter. i know not many agree with a lot of what i say and thats ok, this place would suck if we all thought the same way. in fact i'd be mad if people started just agreeing with me. i dont want to think alike i want people to discuss and talk. find common ground with others which is very possible and i think if we spent more time talking rather than fighting we might actually learn something. the one thing i cannot stand more than anything is for a person to act as if the way they see things is how things should be run and everyone else is run and i see that a lot on this board. i dont view one person as an enemy and i dont view anyone as an idiot because of what they believe. but lets all ask ourselves this question, what are acheiving by arguing and fighting? i dont mean debating, i'm talking "you're a dummycrat!" "you're a neo-con!" arguing and fighting. and that goes for those who throw labels around like communist when they arent or right wing nutcase or liberal loony. did we get anything? did we learn anything? besides a new insult? did we garner anything of subtance from such an exchange? did we get the other person to understand our position better or did we just give them another excuse to not take us seriously and ignore us and what we say? trying to force our beliefs onto others doesnt work and i would think that a site full of intelligent people would know that and not practice this futile behavior but i guess not.

want to learn something? then shut up and read, stop taking everything so personal and see what someone else from a different view has to say. we can all learn something from someone else that doesnt think like us. there is a lot we can learn if we want to. but do we want to? is this where you want our country to go? down in a spiral where we just fight argue and get into pissing contests? obviously what we're doing now isnt working and if its not working dont you think we should try somethign else? i mean lets be honest saying everyone who doesnt think like us is wrong full of # has rocks in their heads or is just plain wrong doesnt work. in fact it closes off your mind to any new thoughts ideas or concepts. i know its hard to accept the fact that things are not we think them to be or the way we think they should be but thats a part of reality and this country is highly diverse and if we dont find a way to use that diversity for us it will be our own undoing. rather than focusing on the small minded that make snide comments and isnult others we should focus on those who have something to say, even if what they say goes against everything we believe. those who want to talk listen and learn will, those who do not will be left behind. do you want to wallow in the filth with those people? i dont.

[edit on 9-7-2004 by ThePrankMonkey]



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 05:46 AM
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Well said.

Your beliefs track pretty closly with mine except for your view on political parties.



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 10:00 AM
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I agree with your views on modern political parties. It's not about the issues anymore, it's about popularity, gaining power and money.

A big part of the problem in my opinion are career politicians. People get into politics as a career option and often end up a paid member of a party for decades. If there was a limit on the length of time anyone could be involved in politics - senators and members of parliament - then perhaps these people would be rooted out, and we'd have people less interested in the money and more concerned with the issues and their principles, not to mention a few fresh ideas.



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 10:25 AM
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i agree with the idea you have there and it could be argued that to do so would also limit the time those who actually do their job and do it well and that wouldnt be a good thing.

i understand we want people who perform their duties well and i firmly believe that limiting most of the fools from becoming career politicians (lets say no more than two offices can be held by one person in their life time) is a bigger win for us and our country than it is a loss to us to lose good effective politicians. pound for pound bad politicians do far more damage than good politicians repair.

and i strongly believe that limiting candidates campaigns to focus solely on their own platform and plans rather than smearing their opponent would take away a lot of negativity from politics. it would help people AND politicians focus on the issues, not the opponent. at this point its more or less a contest to see who can dig up the most dirt on their opponent than it is who has the most sound platform or plan.



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 10:40 AM
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Prank Monkey your #ing awesome......
You just gave me the inspiration to start my own political campaign to wake people up and educate them on how political parties indeed divide and conquer while leaving us at the bottom...

Absolutely brilliant... I'm very impressed, I had no idea you were so passionate about those things... Maybe you can come and give a speech on some of those subjects if not all...

Oh my gosh i'm so exicted...



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 10:41 AM
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ThePrankMonkey says


mr guillermo....if you arent going to do anything more than focus on a few people who's comments are a waste of time then please, dont not waste ours who are wanting actual discussion.


arent should be aren't. who's should be whose. dont should be don't. dont not is a double negative. ours who is ungrammatical.

You make five grammatical errors in one sentence. You cannot even write grammatical English, yet you think you are qualified to criticize me about anything?



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 10:44 AM
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my spelling and grammar skills or lack thereof are pretty much immaterial. you have derailed this thread and it is my job to fix it.

dont like it? you know the proper procedures to have such issues adressed reviewed and resolved. however trying to belittle what i'm saying by attacking my spelling and grammar will do you little good.


one last time, add something to the subject of this thread or find another thread to post in.



posted on Jul, 9 2004 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
Prank Monkey your #ing awesome......
You just gave me the inspiration to start my own political campaign to wake people up and educate them on how political parties indeed divide and conquer while leaving us at the bottom...

Absolutely brilliant... I'm very impressed, I had no idea you were so passionate about those things... Maybe you can come and give a speech on some of those subjects if not all...

Oh my gosh i'm so exicted...


me thinks you're being a bit over the top in your sarcasm. or i'm just so use to being patronized that i have hard time telling if you're bein serious.

so which is it?



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