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Pakistanis rally over blasphemy law

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posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by Tsuki-no-Hikari

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Islam is a death cult until you can prove BY ACTIONS, not verses, that it is anything else.



The Crusades. The Spanish Inquisition. Witch trials and burnings.



Yeah...Islam is much more violent than other religions

edit on 1-1-2011 by Tsuki-no-Hikari because: (no reason given)



Maybe you dont remember the REFORMATION?

When is the last time christians burned someone?

Lame argument.




posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by Steam
 

Steam, it really is almost comical.

If they aren't busy killing each other, they're looking around for Christians. Fortunately, between the honor killings, retribution killings, Shia killing Sunni and Sunni killing Shia, and then Persians killing Arabs and Arabs killing Persians, their hatred of each other comingled with their backwardassed archaic religion restrictions and requirements keep any of them developing much of a country.

The best part is when they aren't actually engaged in killing each other, they are PLANNING on killing each other.

Like I said, miserable people wanting to spread that misery.



With respect Archer,

Ya gotta cut the Persians some slack as far as whacking arabs. Had the arabs not invaded and brought their "lovely" brand of worship, the persians would (possibly) still be as they were before the islamic "revolution".

Granted, they invaded several hundred years ago.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:36 AM
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reply to post by binomialtheorem
 


Wake up to yourself!!!! If you think it is such a small minority then where are the majority and why are they not the loudest voices screaming out against these so-called radicals that hijack their religion? Surely there must be footage somewhere showing this huge majority of loving, caring muslims that you speak when they arrived to silence these protesters? Surely there must have been thousands of them come to the rescue of this poor innocent Christian mother who has been sentenced to death in the name of their religion?

I'm sick of people excusing this behaviour because its a 'minority' or because other religions did terrible things hundreds of years ago. The rest of civilisation learnt from their mistakes and its high time this so called majority of peaceful, loving and caring muslims stood up and got their own house in order. That is the only way this madness will end.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 08:41 AM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


Originally posted by Maslo
That is a little suspicious. I hope you are right. On the other hand, I think religious indoctrination is capable of brainwashing uneducated population to achieve that number.


I don’t know that I am “right or wrong”, I just see it as incredibly inconsistent especially when compared to the reality in terms of numbers of protestors.


Originally posted by Maslo
As I already said, this proves absolutely nothing. Number of people actually going to protests will always be much different than number of people that support the law. Statistics simply dont work that way.


As you already said? Statistics don’t work that way? Feel free to state your opinions as fact, doesn't bother me. Seems to be the ATS way.


Originally posted by Maslo
This is also a non-issue. Death penalty for leaving islam is not extreme in these peoples view. It is the right thing to do. Killing innocent people is wrong for them, but those leaving islam are not innocent for them.


Neither you nor I are “qualified” to evaluate what is or isn’t extreme in anyone’s view. Without knowing your background, its obvious you are not a so called "expert" on any of this. Again, youre entitled to your opinion.

Ok now looking at the methodology, with regards to Pakistan since that’s where the major discrepancy lies and is the topic of the OP, they say:


All surveys are based on national samples except Pakistan, where the sample was disproportionately urban.


They then say that Pakistan’s urban population is 33% which is debatable sine I believe they only have 4 large cities? Even if each one of these urban centers had 10 million people, which they don’t, that would only account for 25% of the population.

Which is still inconsistent. Their sampling came from urban areas which is where the rallies took place…I mean their sample size of 2,000 respondents is almost as large as the number of protesters yet we are supposed to believe these attitudes represent 76% of the people...

It doesnt even represent 76% of the people in the urban areas which would still only represent about 20% of the population (76% of 33%).

I agree that it would be unreasonable to expect 50 million people or even 10 million people to take to the streets, but the 9,000 number in the OP's article is reflective of an arguable tiny tiny minority out of a 167 million people.



edit on 3-1-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by ollncasino
 


Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by gladtobehere
I would tend to agree. Exemplifying an incredibly tiny % of incidents in order to label an entire group.

You are either being disingenuous or speaking from a position of ignorance.

Read the above list of Jihad attacks.

It is is just for the last 2 months of 2010.


By no means are my opinions set in stone. As we are exposed to other points of views based on reliable information, it only makes sense to change our perspectives on an issue and I have done that in the past and no doubt will do that in the future.

To address your statement above, even if you were to tally up the number of these incidents over the past 10 years (assuming they were all credible and verifiable), I would be very surprised if it involved even 1% of the World's Muslim population.

At last count there were what, 1.57 billion Muslims? The incidents that you are citing, do they even account for 1% of their entire population? Which would represent 15 million people...

I would be very surprised if it did. And even if it did, since when would any rational thinking unbiased person generalize about an entire group based on 1% of the people's actions or even 10% or even 20% for that matter?




edit on 3-1-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by gladtobehere
 


I would be very surprised if it did. And even if it did, since when would any rational thinking unbiased person generalize about an entire group based on 1% of the people's actions or even 10% or even 20% for that matter?
Why? Because the islamic apologists claim that the majority oppose the terrorist's actions, yet you never hear a peep much less a roar of disapproval. If the 1 billion plus "peaceful" muslims that they insist exist were to all stand up, or even if only 10% of those did so, then I might believe their arguments. As it is; the deafening silence, the total dearth of recriminations, leaves one to believe that the vast majority must approve or at a very minimum not oppose the methods of the "supposed hijackers" of their nominally peaceful religion.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by gladtobehere
To address your statement above, even if you were to tally up the number of these incidents over the past 10 years (assuming they were all credible and verifiable), I would be very surprised if it involved even 1% of the World's Muslim population.


Moderate Muslims need to be our ally in the fight against Islamic extremism. Certainly, they are the victims of most Jihad attacks.

Did the attacks I cited actually happen?

I have previously checked the first week of Ramadan's jihad attacks and the sources existed elsewhere on the web from Reuters and other news outlets.

Sadly, I came to the conclusion, because I searched by date, that the website "Religion of Peace", actually under reports the number of Jihad attacks around the world.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

There are just so many and they tend to be so under reported, that it is easy to miss a significant number.


Here is a fact for you to ponder.

The size of the US army and US Marines is about 750,000 personnel.

en.wikipedia.org...

I read about a week ago that Security forces around the world keep records on about 2,000,000 Islamic Jihadists. That's the ones they know of.

Bear in mind as well, that they aren't short of funds. The Saudi Wahhabis are not shy at financing terrorism around the world with their oil revenues.


Radical Islam has outmanoeuvred West, says Tony Blair



Western democracies have been "outspent, outmanoeuvred and out-strategised" by violent Islamist extremists, Tony Blair has claimed.

www.telegraph.co.uk...


The security forces are stopping a lot of attacks, but they have said themselves that some will still slip through.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 10:20 AM
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reply to post by gladtobehere
 






As you already said? Statistics don’t work that way? Feel free to state your opinions as fact, doesn't bother me. Seems to be the ATS way.


I am stating facts supported by verifiable sources. You are calling it opinions because it does not fit your preconcieved notions of "religion of peace", while your own opinions are supported by wishful thinking and ignorance of statistics and its methodology.




They then say that Pakistan’s urban population is 33% which is debatable sine I believe they only have 4 large cities?


Wiki agrees with the survey:

Wiki




Which is still inconsistent. Their sampling came from urban areas which is where the rallies took place…I mean their sample size of 2,000 respondents is almost as large as the number of protesters yet we are supposed to believe these attitudes represent 76% of the people... It doesnt even represent 76% of the people in the urban areas which would still only represent about 20% of the population (76% of 33%).


The survey represents opinions of Pakistani muslims with a bias (20%) towards urban population (which may actually be MORE liberal), and 2000 respondents is certainly big enough sample to draw some meaningful conclusions. We are talking about three quarters of people supporting these laws according to results. You can maybe argue about +-10% precision, but with three quarters of respondents agreeing with such laws, that does not change anything in the end.




I agree that it would be unreasonable to expect 50 million people or even 10 million people to take to the streets, but the 9,000 number in the OP's article is reflective of an arguable tiny tiny minority out of a 167 million people.


Unfortunately, other sources show that this is simply not the case. It is reflective of majority of Pakistani muslims.


Also, are there any counter-protests supporting abolition of these punishments?
edit on 3/1/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Seagle
reply to post by binomialtheorem
 


Wake up to yourself!!!! If you think it is such a small minority then where are the majority and why are they not the loudest voices screaming out against these so-called radicals that hijack their religion? Surely there must be footage somewhere showing this huge majority of loving, caring muslims that you speak when they arrived to silence these protesters? Surely there must have been thousands of them come to the rescue of this poor innocent Christian mother who has been sentenced to death in the name of their religion?

I'm sick of people excusing this behaviour because its a 'minority' or because other religions did terrible things hundreds of years ago. The rest of civilisation learnt from their mistakes and its high time this so called majority of peaceful, loving and caring muslims stood up and got their own house in order. That is the only way this madness will end.



Where the minority exist many Muslims are not allowed to speak out!

WHY? BECAUSE THEY USUALLY HAVE SUPERIOR MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND WILL KILL ANYONE WHO APPOSES THEM. EVEN MUSLIMS. YET THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FOR THE MUSLIM CAUSE.

And besides when the majority do denounce the attacks the media doesn't give a crap. To quote from another post of mine...




I really do think that the reason some people think badly about Islam is because of all this media hype surrounding it. Seriously every person wants their own prejudice to be confirmed in someway, that's why the media wants to incite such one sided views.All they want to do is to increase their ratings, and continuing in making money, and they don't care at who's expense it is.


And if you really don't agree with those numbers above then prove it wrong.

Seriously if you did have all the evidence for each of those attacks you could only convict .02667% of Muslims. If you then could link the others involved in the attacks that will take about .25% of Muslims.
edit on 3-1-2011 by binomialtheorem because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by Tsuki-no-Hikari
The Crusades. The Spanish Inquisition. Witch trials and burnings.


er... The above were quite a few centuries ago. We are talking about the here and now.

In dealing historical fact regarding the Crusades, you could balance that by the Moors (Muslims) who invaded Spain and Portugal, the Muslim conquests into India, Muslim conquest of Syria, Italy, Constantinople (now Istanbul) et al. In darkest history things happened and everyone was trying to conquer everyone else.

This of course applies to the Spanish Inquisition (or the wider Mediaeval Inquisitions if we are looking at historical examples), but these were mere “blips” in time and are more than outweighed by the mayhem and intolerance within Islam throughout the centuries and which still goes on as Shia merrily kill Sunni and visa versa. Comparatively few people were affected by the various Mediaeval Inquisitions and the bloodletting several hundred years ago in Christian nations (e.g. between Catholics versus Protestants) no longer goes on.

Similarly, whereas the “burning of a witch” died out several hundred years ago in Christian nations, in some Muslim nations there is apparent enjoyment of the flogging and stoning of women who (God forbid) had the audacity to have sex outside of marriage, or men who happen to fancy other men. Comparatively few people were affected by witch burnings in European nations, although the subject makes good Hollywood movies.

On topic, it is a shame that the US still maintain the death penalty because that reduces their moral right to complain where other nations have the same sentence, albeit for crimes which are petty by the standards of the West, whether the pettiness is from a secular or Christian viewpoint.

It is incumbent on Islam to prove that it is a modern religion and fit for the modern world. This type of “uncivilised” behaviour in the name of religion demonstrates to me that Islam has a fair way to go to pull it out of a mediaeval mindset.

Regards



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by ollncasino
 


Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by gladtobehere
To address your statement above, even if you were to tally up the number of these incidents over the past 10 years (assuming they were all credible and verifiable), I would be very surprised if it involved even 1% of the World's Muslim population.


Did the attacks I cited actually happen?

Sadly, I came to the conclusion, because I searched by date, that the website "Religion of Peace", actually under reports the number of Jihad attacks around the world.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

There are just so many and they tend to be so under reported, that it is easy to miss a significant number.

Here is a fact for you to ponder.

The size of the US army and US Marines is about 750,000 personnel.

I read about a week ago that Security forces around the world keep records on about 2,000,000 Islamic Jihadists. That's the ones they know of.

The security forces are stopping a lot of attacks, but they have said themselves that some will still slip through.


But Oll, what you are posting reads more like a crimes report, documenting (or at-least making an attempt to document) every violent or criminal act committed by a Muslim.

I almost feel ridiculous saying it, but it seems like I need to, criminal acts and violent crimes occur all over the World by every type of ethnic and religious group, usually on a daily basis.

It comes across (in my opinion very obviously) like a desperate attempt to vilify an entire group based on a minuscule, tiny, percentage of the entire population.

You mention that "security forces" around the World are watching 2 million "Jihadists", heh. Sorry, sounds so much like any number of endlessly repeated mantras published throughout the corporate media.

Even if every one of these 2 million people were a bunch of blood thirsty insaniacs, that still accounts for less than one fifth of 1 percent of Muslims worldwide...

Do I really need to continue...? People on a forum like ATS dont see the obvious absurdities of whats going on?
edit on 3-1-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


Regarding the OP's article, in a country of 172 million, 9,000 took to the streets. Unfortunate, but hardly an indictment of an entire group.

Getting back to opinion polls...


Originally posted by Maslo
I am stating facts supported by verifiable sources. You are calling it opinions because it does not fit your preconcieved notions of "religion of peace", while your own opinions are supported by wishful thinking and ignorance of statistics and its methodology.


How should one refer to an opinion other than to call it an opinion? Saying "you dont understand" and "you dont know how it works" is an absolute opinion unless you can provide a legitimate source to the contrary. And those "verifiable sources" are?

Sources which say that there is no correlation between an opinion poll and real life events.

Amazing.

And if in fact there is no correlation, whats the point of a poll in the first place? It obviously has nothing to do with reality.


Originally posted by Maslo
The survey represents opinions of Pakistani muslims with a bias (20%) towards urban population (which may actually be MORE liberal), and 2000 respondents is certainly big enough sample to draw some meaningful conclusions. We are talking about three quarters of people supporting these laws according to results. You can maybe argue about +-10% precision, but with three quarters of respondents agreeing with such laws, that does not change anything in the end.


In general, a sample of 2000 people is good sized sample. However, even if the urban population is 33% of the country, that still only represents 1/3 of the population. And I would agree that the the urban areas would be more liberal though I dont know by how much as only 7% of the entire population is college educated.


Originally posted by Maslo
Unfortunately, other sources show that this is simply not the case. It is reflective of majority of Pakistani muslims.


Waiting to be enlightened by sources which say that polls have zero to do with reality.



edit on 3-1-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 03:15 AM
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reply to post by gladtobehere
 





Regarding the OP's article, in a country of 172 million, 9,000 took to the streets. Unfortunate, but hardly an indictment of an entire group.


But another source shows that 76 % of Pakistani muslims agree with the protesters. Also, are there any counter-protests? There surely should be based on your logic, even more massive than these protests.




Sources which say that there is no correlation between an opinion poll and real life events.


There is very strong correlation. Majority of people agree with these laws, thousands of people go protesting to keep them, and nobody goes protesting to change them. The correlation is clearly there.




In general, a sample of 2000 people is good sized sample. However, even if the urban population is 33% of the country, that still only represents 1/3 of the population. And I would agree that the the urban areas would be more liberal though I dont know by how much as only 7% of the entire population is college educated.


The poll is biased (20%) towards urban areas. It does not show opinion only in urban areas, but also in rural areas, but with some bias. There is nothing wrong with the poll, except that it contradicts your preconcieved notion of "religion of peace".




Waiting to be enlightened by sources which say that polls have zero to do with reality.


The poll precisely correlates with real events. The topic of this thread is that Pakistani muslims are protesting to keep this laws, and you tell me that the poll does not correlate with reality?

edit on 4/1/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


Originally posted by Maslo
But another source shows that 76 % of Pakistani muslims agree with the protesters. Also, are there any counter-protests? There surely should be based on your logic, even more massive than these protests.


Which source is that?

So now lack of protesting is an indictment…


Originally posted by Maslo
There is very strong correlation. Majority of people agree with these laws, thousands of people go protesting to keep them, and nobody goes protesting to change them. The correlation is clearly there.


In your mind, you see a "strong" correlation between a 76% opinion poll allegedly representing the attitudes of a 176 million people with a .006% turn out...




Originally posted by Maslo
The poll is biased (20%) towards urban areas. It does not show opinion only in urban areas, but also in rural areas, but with some bias. There is nothing wrong with the poll, except that it contradicts your preconcieved notion of "religion of peace".


There is nothing wrong with that poll except that it does not even remotely reflect reality.

"Religion of peace". Yet another media buzz word. Very surprising (sarcasm).

I have made no statements with regards to religions and peace. As a matter of fact, I would argue that organized religion has been a negative factor with regards to peace. My point (which I thought was clear) is that many people, like the OP have formed a view of reality based on rhetoric, buzz words, repetition and media brain washing. I can now add opinion polls to that list.

Nothing says it more clearly than the indictment of 1.5 billion people based on the protests of 9,000.

Furthermore I did not expect to find corporate media and establishment mantras on a site whose motto is “deny ignorance”.


Originally posted by Maslo
The poll precisely correlates with real events. The topic of this thread is that Pakistani muslims are protesting to keep this laws, and you tell me that the poll does not correlate with reality?


"Precisely correlates". Your brain sees a precise correlation between a view which we are told is shared by 76% of the population but which less than one tenth of one percent care to express through actions...

Your “lol” is appropriate.

...

The topic of the thread is about rallies which the OP uses to make a generalization and in doing so asks the following:


Where is this peaceful majority we keep hearing rumors of?


I realize its redundant but for some reason this point is eluding you. 9,000 is not a majority. On the contrary it is minuscule minority in a country of 176 million and in percentage terms, its literally almost zero.

edit on 4-1-2011 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by gladtobehere
But Oll, what you are posting reads more like a crimes report, documenting (or at-least making an attempt to document) every violent or criminal act committed by a Muslim.


You appear to have missed a fundamantal point.

The extensive list of jihad murders in the last 2 months that I posted were carried out with a political aim - the domination of Islam by violence.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by gladtobehere
 





Which source is that?


The poll I posted earlier.

The poll




In your mind, you see a "strong" correlation between a 76% opinion poll allegedly representing the attitudes of a 176 million people with a .006% turn out...


The correlation is there. Most of people support such laws according to that poll, and as a result of this there are protests with thousands of protesters to keep them, and lack of protests to change them.




There is nothing wrong with that poll except that it does not even remotely reflect reality.


The poll reflects reality quite well. You have not presented any arguments to prove your version of reality. I have two such arguments - the results of the poll, and the protests to keep these laws.





"Precisely correlates". Your brain sees a precise correlation between a view which we are told is shared by 76% of the population but which less than one tenth of one percent care to express through actions... Your “lol” is appropriate.


Yes, there is a correlation. If this view would be in minority, there would hardly be protests with thousands of people. Thousands of people is a big protest. This supports the notion that results of that poll are real.




I realize its redundant but for some reason this point is eluding you. 9,000 is not a majority. On the contrary it is minuscule minority in a country of 176 million and in percentage terms, its literally almost zero.


The OP asked where is the peaceful majority, because there are no counter-protests to change these laws numbering in thousands, which seems to indicate lack of this peaceful majority. I have stated that the reason for inactivity of this peaceful majority among Pakistani muslims is that there is no peaceful majority, and that extremists are in majority, and I have provided source to support my claim. That is my point.

Do you have any alternative explanation that could account for both these protests, lack of counter-protests, and results of the above mentioned poll that does not involve majority of Pakistani muslims being brainwashed extremists? I would like to hear it.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 


Originally posted by Maslo
The poll I posted earlier.

The poll

The correlation is there. Most of people support such laws according to that poll, and as a result of this there are protests with thousands of protesters to keep them, and lack of protests to change them.

The poll reflects reality quite well. You have not presented any arguments to prove your version of reality. I have two such arguments - the results of the poll, and the protests to keep these laws.

Yes, there is a correlation. If this view would be in minority, there would hardly be protests with thousands of people. Thousands of people is a big protest. This supports the notion that results of that poll are real.

The OP asked where is the peaceful majority, because there are no counter-protests to change these laws numbering in thousands, which seems to indicate lack of this peaceful majority. I have stated that the reason for inactivity of this peaceful majority among Pakistani muslims is that there is no peaceful majority, and that extremists are in majority, and I have provided source to support my claim. That is my point.

Do you have any alternative explanation that could account for both these protests, lack of counter-protests, and results of the above mentioned poll that does not involve majority of Pakistani muslims being brainwashed extremists? I would like to hear it.


Poll: 76%.

Reality: .00005%



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by ollncasino
 


Originally posted by ollncasino

You appear to have missed a fundamantal point.

The extensive list of jihad murders in the last 2 months that I posted were carried out with a political aim - the domination of Islam by violence.


I am not commenting on motive. For argument's sake, lets say you are correct. These acts represent an incredibly tiny minority. To call it "incredibly tiny" is inaccurate. My vocabulary is limited to accurately express the minuscule minority you are using to label an entire group.

And dont get me wrong, its not just you. Its the order of the day. For whatever reason, I expected more from ATS members.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by sonofliberty1776


So I ask our Muslim friends yet again. Where is this peaceful majority we keep hearing rumors of?


Have you? Have you really ever asked a Muslim about your concerns? Talk's cheap...please do so and get back to us.



posted on Jan, 4 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776


So I ask our Muslim friends yet again. Where is this peaceful majority we keep hearing rumors of?


Have you? Have you really ever asked a Muslim about your concerns? Talk's cheap...please do so and get back to us.


Islam Is Taking Over and Will be taking over, the Muslims have the biggest mosques and will have a large Islamic center in toronto thanks to David miller


Everywhere in toronto where you look there are alots of mosques and more mosques
i don't remember Toronto having these many mosques before.

So JohnnyCanuck you approve an Islamic Takeover of Canada?
I will be waiting for a reply.
edit on 4-1-2011 by Agent_USA_Supporter because: (no reason given)



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