Atheism's Missionaries

reply to post by Annee


I don't know. It's up to Cosmic.Artifact. He offered a debate, I definitively accepted his challenge (I even uploaded a 'challenge accepted' image to do so with some showmanship) and asked him to work out the general terms and the title of the thread.

Now, he has repeatedly declared that I've chickened out, but I'm still all for the debate. I'd love for it to happen. I'd love to have a place where he actually has to be held accountable.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Annee

 

I don't know. It's up to Cosmic.Artifact. He offered a debate, I definitively accepted his challenge (I even uploaded a 'challenge accepted' image to do so with some showmanship) and asked him to work out the general terms and the title of the thread.

Now, he has repeatedly declared that I've chickened out, but I'm still all for the debate. I'd love for it to happen. I'd love to have a place where he actually has to be held accountable.

Yes! He has put himself in a position of: "Put Up or Shut Up".

His posturing is annoying and only acceptable by those who feed into his illusion.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


Hi C.A,

Thank you for replying to me. Slowly, I am getting to understand the basis or drive for your assertions or perceptions. So I also thank you for this. And apologies up front if this gets long.

If I may begin by quoting and then responding to..

the 92% (being fair here) of the rest of planet earth (the planet I live on) needs to keep a close eye on these professed evildoers (by our reasoning) because if it is any one who is going to go against or try to do harm to the societies that Theism has already established for them... well we might just need to keep a close eye on this bunch

It is true that our society and culture here in the west is firmly planted in a Religious Base. If it had not been Christian it may have ended up being another religion and would have grown as we see such cultures have in other parts of the world.

In this we can see the many Similarities between the Human Beings within any culture and ourselves.. well I hope we all can anyway. We also see that our Society is in Desperate NEED of Change.. effective change that will take us into a more enlightened phase of growth for our own future.

And so I would consider that any person with a vision for a more egalitarian future would be suitable for the job at hand. I sure do not think they MUST have a religious background in order to assist in creating important and necessary change for the better.

Hence the Ones we need to keep an eye on would be those people who wish to Maintain the Status Quo of control of the masses, corporate greed and dishonesty. Would you agree with this statement?

also we have learned Atheists need to better assimilate and their belief is not a belief and the "church" of non-belief is basically a scam to get your money sucka

Assimilate? I would think if they are participating in Society then they are in essence assimilated already with the mainstream culture we are born into. We must realise that Religion is on the wane now, and so we cannot expect it to hold as much power over people as it has in the past.

The Belief is still a Belief, it is just that they do not Believe in a Supreme God as proposed by organised religion. This does not make them Dangerous to society by any means, it only makes them non-Religious which is no crime nor is it anything to be so concerned about that we need to Rail Against "Them".

Churches also takes money.. and lots of it.. from the congregation every Sunday. It does not ASK as such, but it is an un-asked for Donation that is Expected as the plate is passed around.

Also, all things humans have done for the longest time is monetarily based.. it is the inherent greed taught in our culture as being Good, that is the cause for this Greed you see in the Athiests Church that asks for money to offer a sermon. Which is no different to a key note speaker being paid for their time.

Atheists also do not know much about history nor philosophy as I myself have established in other topics. Here is a link someone gave me for a start on their history lesson...

You do recognise this statement as being a sweeping generalisation and thus is Prone to Errors?

You know it is impossible for all Athiests to lack a solid understanding of History as it is written by the Victors? Many will also know and understand a deeper history that is more truthfull than the Egotistic-Based History.. the closer to the truth real History not written in our school history books.

We cannot base our Perceptions on a small number, nor can we base it on any Limitations proposed by Belief-Systems because both will always reach a point that they fail to recognise or define an experience that is not part of it's own paradigm.

Us V Them.....

We need to be working to STOP the Separatist Agenda.. which is the overpowering drive in our society.. Divide and Conquer!!

We have been running this Separatist Agenda for a very long time. You see it in everything we humans do. There is always an Us V Them approach taken. It is specifically done to try and force others to take sides which then leads to animosity, missionaries of a sort who go out to force their view on the other populations, etc.

We are focusing on the differences and then giving those difference an assigned Value of "Good" or "Bad", and all solely based on our chosen or Indoctrinated perceptions.

This leads us into the supidest things like President's saying you are either with us or against us.. when the fact of the matter may well be that a large portion of society would choose to do something differently to their supreme commander but do not wish to appear opposed to the hard-pushed perception being offered.

We need the Big Melting Pot... so that we can share the excellent differences and enjoy them, as well as being able to Accept the Similarities as being a real basis within humanity that is not behoving to any one Faith or Religion.

We could say that those who continue the Separatist Agenda are the enemies within our own culture.

Your early experience of ATS...

I am sorry that you may have been jumped on hard by members when you first began discussions here. But we cannot let the tough experiences spoil our way of being. If we resort to veiled antagonisms, name-calling with a little vehemence added, and the continuation of agressiveness in our words and approach, then we are not Being Ourselves and not shining the Light from within.

It's okay. We have all felt as if we were attacked at times here and we all.. well those of us who stayed on... learned not to become something we are not, we learned how to respectfully disagree while discussing even the most heated of debates.

More importantly, we learned to grow with New Information. And we did this by Allowing ourselves to be more Open and Accepting of others. This did not mean we had to take on board information that simply did not resonate despite knowing that all new information will rub hard against our chosen Beliefs. We just allowed ourselves to grow along the way rather than stay stagnant within one Heavily Defended Position.


Lastly, may I say that when we find something Grinding on Us we have to look at the Why of it. Why is it grinding on me? Why is it getting under my skin? What am I not seeing that is part of my own Process?

This self questioning can often lead us into a much clearer understanding of our own Chosen Limitations and personal Misunderstandings, etc. In which case, all you are experiencing here has been For You and not really Against you.

It is shining the our Light into our own Darkness to see the Whole of ourself .. but it is only effective if we are totally Honest with ourselves.

Be well

I'm still anxiously awaiting word from C.A that he is willing to take the issue into the Debate Forum where, no doubt, it should be intently watched by many members.

MIMS has already informed me via U2U that he has accepted the challenge.

reply to post by masqua


anxiously waiting word from me ?

I have offered the debate in the first place, and on 3 separate occasions... not to mention I have sent masqua a u2u 2 days ago and also have contacted MIMS via u2u with no reply.

I have accepted my own offer to debate atleast 3 times now by the way

I have given MIMS the opportunity to choose the topic of debate and have even given him time to formulate a trap style debate by offering him to choose the topic.

Instead of responding to my offer MIMS and others have chosen to engage me in this and other topics...

I totally do not understand the run-a-round, is this an attempt to save face or some of the same dodge strategy that I have seen exhibited from namely a few whom I have already slain ?

it's ok though because I understand the desperation on his part to now want to say yet again that he will engage me in a debate that I offered in the first place (that is if DTOM or semperfortis) two of my own personal moderators have not removed the "non-insulting" evidence by now (my posts were not off topic btw guys)

I do not take kindly to insults and to the pompous nature of the way some of these great debaters open when they formulate their response either and that even being a sign to me of capitulation...

list of the Slain

SFX
MIMS
T.D.
MrXYZ

personally they have no face to save !

and something that really disgusts me about SFX, brother to MIMS (or same person really) is the fact when someone came on ATS in a topic called (I hate my life) and were talking about suicide, SFX response was just totally disgusting and to a 17 year old to top it off.

these people (and other identities) have no face to regain nor soul to save in my opinion, and the Debate is already actually over the way I see it

their only redemption now would be to pray or something to whomever they perceive as their higher power (which is actually themself in case anyone else has not noticed?)

may God have mercy on their souls

not bad for all that in around 30 days I might add

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and asked him to work out the general terms and the title of the thread.

why did you not respond to my U2U ?

Now, he has repeatedly declared that I've chickened out,

why did you not respond to my U2U even asking you to enter chat and work out the details ?

did I not offer the debate ?

and oh anne... where do you think I learned the "you lose" posturing from ?
MrXYZ and Titen Skull mainly... and we know they are a friendly bunch now don't we

Cosmic,

Comes a time when we have to stop our mind thinking of what we want to say, for a minute or two so that we are focused on Hearing/Seeing. Otherwise we risk missing important information.

What those who accepted a debate are waiting for is You to arrange the Format with Mods who will get the Debate organised and running.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

Also, and please see the honourable intent in these few words.... when a person claims to have slain another in their personal view, and not that of the other observers, then a perception issue is in play with the claimant.

Be well.

Originally posted by Tayesin
Cosmic,

Comes a time when we have to stop our mind thinking of what we want to say, for a minute or two so that we are focused on Hearing/Seeing. Otherwise we risk missing important information.

What those who accepted a debate are waiting for is You to arrange the Format with Mods who will get the Debate organised and running.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

Also, and please see the honourable intent in these few words.... when a person claims to have slain another in their personal view, and not that of the other observers, then a perception issue is in play with the claimant.

Be well.

I appreciate it Tay and I am thinking about what you have posted above and I do like the way you reply in your discussion.

But on the other hand there is no need anymore for a debate because as I have stated in a U2U to masqua we will be going around in circles because I am dealing with someone who has no balance in Philosophy and Science. Instead only Science are some posters truth... I can also honestly say that I believe that it is Philosophy which gave birth to Experiment which is "science"

so which did come first... "the chicken or the egg?"

it's all good, I will give them the shirt off my back too if they seemingly have already taken my jacket, but all I ever wanted and shown people since I have come here is a little respect. I also have to admit that I am not as graceful as some of my brothers and sisters who try to follow the narrow path and I am also not as versed, I am a newbie in more ways than one but I have been around long enough to know that Science has not answered all of my questions but Philosophy has addressed them quite well.

I admitted I was a Christian when I first came on here and the slash fest began... as I have stated I am not as graceful yet but I am trying... I never identified who was doing the slashing until the Atheists identified themselves, you might want to take note that I am a Metal-Head and also by my law in America if one is punched first I have every right to knock them the heck out !

I like Jesus' philosophy man and I am trying...

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact


I like Jesus' philosophy man and I am trying...

"Do, or do not. There is no try"

Sorry, ive always wanted to use that quote and never have

Either way, go for the debate! they can be fun, really. Some will take them quite seriously, but in the end, you will likely learn a significant amount about yourself, anothers perspective, and the world around you as a whole. They can be a fantastic learning experience if you go into it with that mindset, instead of who will "win." After all, a normal debate is like court, it doesnt matter at all whether or not you are "correct," it just matters that you can "make your case" better than the other guy. Its not like it matters that much anyway, but you, and others, may learn something so why not?

reply to post by sinohptik


I actually will not have too much time after tuesday, though I can log in at the shop... I will be turning wrenches and be distracted until I get off from work. Although I have been crunching this site pretty hard since I have actually decided to use my account here. (I used to be able to read the forums without logging in or taking part)

no one has contacted me about determining which style debate and the rules, I have been in the debate section just recently and am reading there now to see how that plays out.

Is the debate going to be about Science or Philosophy ?

If the Kings would like to nail me to the metaphorical cross because I have opposed them, so be it. I need to know what the debate topic is first and also I need to read more this evening in the debate section so I can see how it all goes down.

Admittedly though it is not all that important to me any longer, but I do feel it is important to MIMS.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by masqua

 

anxiously waiting word from me ?

I have offered the debate in the first place, and on 3 separate occasions... not to mention I have sent masqua a u2u 2 days ago and also have contacted MIMS via u2u with no reply.

Honestly, you have yet to answer my latest U2U in which I am offering you the opportunity to engage MIMS in a structured debate. So far, I have received nothing definite from you, but I wait patiently..

I have accepted my own offer to debate atleast 3 times now by the way

OK...

I have given MIMS the opportunity to choose the topic of debate and have even given him time to formulate a trap style debate by offering him to choose the topic.

A structured debate holds no traps. The topic is something which needs to be agreed upon by both parties. Once you and MIMS have got that settled, send it to me and I will help get this going.

Instead of responding to my offer MIMS and others have chosen to engage me in this and other topics...

I'm willing to be the go-between for establishing the debate. However, that debate will be moderated by those staffers who have consistantly held such debates.

I totally do not understand the run-a-round, is this an attempt to save face or some of the same dodge strategy that I have seen exhibited from namely a few whom I have already slain ?

There's not much to understand, really. Pick the topic and staff will accomodate the debate.

it's ok though because I understand the desperation on his part to now want to say yet again that he will engage me in a debate that I offered in the first place (that is if DOTM or semperfortis) two of my own personal moderators have not removed the "non-insulting" evidence by now

(my posts were not off topic btw guys)

You just lost me on that one. You do know that no staffer works alone and that ALL their actions are known by the rest of staff, administrators included. I can vouch for the fact that you have no "personal moderators".

I do not take kindly to insults and to the pompous nature of the way some of these great debaters open when they formulate their response either and that even being a sign to me of capitulation...]

list of the Slain

SFX
MIMS
T.D.
MrXYZ

personally they have no face to save !

Really? In that case, I'm guessing there will be a long line-up to willing to debate you. I'm guessing the Debate Forum is going to be unusually active for the next few weeks.

and something that really disgusts me about SFX, brother to MIMS (or same person really) is the fact when someone came on ATS in a topic called (I hate my life) and were talking about suicide, SFX response was just totally disgusting and to a 17 year old to top it off.

no comment

these people (and other identities) have no face to regain nor soul to save in my opinion, and the Debate is already actually over the way I see it

Oh. Does that mean you are NOT willing to debate them then?

their only redemption now would be to pray or something to whomever they perceive as their higher power (which is actually themself in case anyone else has not noticed?)

Interesting...

may God have mercy on their souls

Yes. Very nice.

So. What's it going to be? Yes or no? Please let me know that you are willing and that yourself and MIMS have picked a topic. I'm patient.

Originally posted by masqua
Please let me know that you are willing and that yourself and MIMS have picked a topic. I'm patient.

hello masqua,

please read the last two posts above, I have offered MIMS multiple times, contacted him via u2u and to no avail...

I leave it on him to contact me now or offer a chat as I have.

I have offered the opportunity to aggress on me and he has remained silent via u2u and chat... (which actually says something decent about his character)

Lets see who throws the fist punch, all I have really been saying is "go ahead and hit me"

peace

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

Thank you Cosmic.

It's all good from where I sit on a hot, muggy day in Oz. If we learn anything in what each moment has to offer, it will always be about something inside us.. something possibly being reflected outside us. Since this is so then anything that brings us to such a point couldn't be a bad thing.

Don't mind a bit of metal myself at times.

reply to post by Tayesin

Churches also takes money.. and lots of it.. from the congregation every Sunday. It does not ASK as such, but it is an un-asked for Donation that is Expected as the plate is passed around.

As the Treasurer of a mainline Protestant church, I might have some interesting statistics for you. These are generally true across denominations (I've read articles on church finance in my role), and I can attest to their accuracy in our particular congregation.

About 80% of the offerings come from about 20% of the congregation, and about 50% of those who attend church weekly give zero, nothing throughout the year. When I attend Mass, it appears that the Catholic numbers are even worse -- I would guess that the percent who give nothing is closer to 60%.

These numbers are problematic, because the larger a church becomes, the more they struggle with finances, unless they can turn that around, because a bigger congregation requires more services, but generally gives little money. This is particularly true of younger people -- in our congregation, I would guess that 90% of the funds come from those about 50 years or older, even though they're only about half of the membership.

As for the amounts we are talking about, I can't be specific, but the entire offering for the year is on a par with the salary of one fairly well paid professional person. That one "salary" has to cover the costs for three staff members, the cost of maintaining the buildings, education materials, missions, and so forth.

Finally, remember that, in the US, at least, churches are non-profits. If there is any money left over at the end of the year, I write a check for the local homeless shelter and zero out that account.

Again, just some "real world" data for your consideration. There are a few mega-churches that contradict this, but they are the vast, vast minority.

reply to post by adjensen

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

I had figured many Churches would be seeing reduced financial support with the changes over these past 30 years or so. My point was that using the "Money" card wasn't really valid in the argument for various reasons.

reply to post by adjensen


at my sisters Church they pass a donation plate around sometimes, I think it is usually on Sunday service, one thing I have noticed is it is exactly that... a plate, as if open to anyone there.

My sister and her husband have provided a Christmas basically for 3 children that were not their own and did this through the church that was sponsoring kids whose both parents were incarcerated. My sister and her husband did this of their own free will and the church they attend is always asking if anybody need to speak to the pastors after service and that they are available.

that plate I see going around in that church is "open" it is not a covered or locked box, there is something very metaphorical about that to me... My sister and her husband derive alot of joy sponsoring their church and I understand now alot clearer why they have stepped it up.

I learn alot there too as I observe...

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by masqua
Please let me know that you are willing and that yourself and MIMS have picked a topic. I'm patient.

hello masqua,

please read the last two posts above, I have offered MIMS multiple times, contacted him via u2u and to no avail...

You sent me a u2u, while I was asleep, asking me to have a 'live debate' on ATS chat, when I was considering a formal debate on live.

I leave it on him to contact me now or offer a chat as I have.

I'd prefer to go through a moderator, I asked masqua to contact you. You have yet to reply to the u2u sent by this moderator. I'm not saying I won't contact you, I'd just prefer to have a super moderator in charge of the setup of the debate, rather than leave it to a he-said-she-said thing if the debate falls through. That way we have a witness.

I have offered the opportunity to aggress on me and he has remained silent via u2u and chat... (which actually says something decent about his character)

A debate is about discussion, not aggression.

Lets see who throws the fist punch, all I have really been saying is "go ahead and hit me"

No, you've been saying you'd like a debate and then declining all formal offers.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and asked him to work out the general terms and the title of the thread.

why did you not respond to my U2U ?

Because I was asleep at the time and you were asking me for a live chat...

Now, he has repeatedly declared that I've chickened out,

why did you not respond to my U2U even asking you to enter chat and work out the details ?


Again, I was asleep at the time. Mainly because of some insomnia issues I've been having, I've ended up staying up quite late and sleeping in. Thankfully, I've been on break from University as well during this time.

did I not offer the debate ?

Did I not ask you to hammer out the details in a thread? Did a mod not contact you? Oh, and I just u2u'd you. I'll be sending masqua a copy once flood control is out of effect.

and oh anne... where do you think I learned the "you lose" posturing from ?

Well, if it was from me, SaturnFX, MrXYZ, or the others you've claimed to have 'slain', then it's because we rightly invoked you abandoning discussion points, not providing any sources for your claims, and other such nonsense.

MrXYZ and Titen Skull mainly... and we know they are a friendly bunch now don't we

Um...considering how you've been discussing with them, I'd say they weren't posturing, they were merely acknowledging your abandonment of issues.

reply to post by adjensen


Ah, but then there are the denominations that tithe. Some of them expect as much as 20% of someone's annual income.

And I do acknowledge that many churches are deservedly non-profit (though they are for-prophet), though there are many I know of that in no way deserve this status. I also think that general not-for-profit rules in most nations need to be changed in general, not just with religions, in a way that compels all to disclose all (with governmental help in the case of smaller organizations), as I know the Catholic Church keeps closed books.

A congregation that I have more than a passing knowledge of is that of Joyce Meyer, who some of you might have heard of. I grew up in St. Louis, so I regularly heard of this woman preaching the gospel of prosperity...and guess what? She's rich as hell. She owns a $10 million jet, her husband drives a higher-end Mercedes (amongst the other high-end cars they own), they have a $2 million house, a $20 million headquarters (with $5.7 million in furnishings), and she received $900,000 annually from her ministry (her husband received an additional $450,000).

Took all of the specific numbers from her wiki entry, with the original numbers coming from the St. Louis Post Dispatch, but I remember when this story broke in 2003. Some individuals take advantage of others in such a horrible way. In fact, I often doubt they believe in the deity they claim to preach, mainly because he told his followers to give up all their possessions to follow him.

Unfortunately, these individuals are far more high-profile than the many, many others who don't fleece the flock, so it ruins it for them in the eyes of the public.

Hell, I even think compulsory tithing is incorrect. I know of a fairly mainstream Lutheran church in the area I grew up in that did it, and they didn't have the wealthiest congregation, but their church was incredibly nice and the minister wore designer outfits all the time.

To add another metaphor, a bad apple ruins the bunch.