Please, let's sort out the meaning of Christ and the meaning of Christianity

So many people put Christianity down, because by Christianity they are referring to churches.

I am the first person to say that I believe all churches are corrupt.

But many people drag Christ down as well.

Yes, Christ wanted a Christian church. But the way those churches have gone is directly against the teachings of Christ.

Christ taught love, forgiveness, caring for others. Yes, He does fight - but only against people who abuse (the usurers) by which he means people who get rich at the expense of other people, and against the devil, by which he means everyone and everything which hurts and damages people. The devil equals lack of love, hatred, not caring for others.

And even if you do not believe in Christ, all you have to believe in this:

First, love and forgive yourself, so that you can love and forgive others.

Help yourself and help other people, even if you only smile or give a kind word.

Never hurt anyone or anything if possible.

And care for the planet - without which we cannot survive.

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


I agree I like many others believe that religion is just another way to control people. But Christ didn't teach that, he taught love and forgivness. Forgive me if I quote it wrong but "The only way the father is through me" should be translated as (in my opinion) "the only way to OUR father is through me". And I believe that by through me Jesus means his teachings of love and forgivness. Not the literal "giving yourself up" to christ.
How many people that go to church actually practice love and forgivness in their everyday lives? I don't meant to group everyone that goes to church in one category, I know you are all not like that.

reply to post by strawberry91


Hi straw,

It is so nice to have someone who knows what I mean.

I hope you have a lovely 2011 (we had it here one and a half hours ago).

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


Happy new year to you also! We are still just about a whole day away lol but at least I'm off for new years.

I use to be so confused about jesus. When I realized it was all about love and forgivness I understood perfectly though

reply to post by strawberry91


WOW!

I am so glad.

Have a happy holiday.

Brilliant! well said....

Happy new year to all above.

The supreme being ordered everyone to call him YHWH.

He also said not to idolize anyone or anything but him.

Then this Yashua guy comes around saying to drop to your knees and make him yer deity.

We even created a new name for him "Jesus", this new English word was created about 500 years ago.
Then we created a new word to call YHWH and in 1610 the word "God" was created in the English language.

"Christianity" is a religion based upon praising a half human as a deity, instead of idolizing the sole deity who demanded to be idolized alone.

We're all Yashua's. (Christs). He was made by YHWH, we were made by YHWH. If Christianity proves anything it's that we are not intelligent enough to even comprehend the original hebrew text and you could make up a religion idolizing McDonald's and there will be some suckers who'll call the clown their Saviour.

Yes, the church has done a masterful work for the last 2 millenia of mutilating the true message and teachings of Christ. Yet the truth is right there in the very pages of the Bible as it exists today (the full Bible has been successfully suppressed and/or destroyed from human record, and no I'm not talking about the Gnostic texts).

In the very beginning we are plainly told that we have the divine spark within us, unless created in His image simply is referring to a "shape".... Christ came to show us how to release that divine spark (parable of the seeds, mustard seed, vine/fruit) and cultivate it to it's flourishing.

For 4000 years of recorded Biblical history the Bible teaches a clear message of Karma (sow/reap), the only defense against our output of dark energy (sin) was to allow a sacrificed beast to absorb it as it was a symbol for the One who would be the ultimate sacrifice who would absorb that energy once and for all and empower us to do the same.

Christ came to show us the way, truth and life by unleashing the power of Christ that is within us all that simply lies dormant under generations of darkness under the curse brought about by the defiance of the Creator's natural order for the pleasure of serving self.

Biblical story after story reveals these truths. One of my favorites is the narrative of the 2 son's of Isaac, Jacob and Esau. Esau's soul was "hated" by the Creator because it would never seek the path of the Spirit, rather it would be consumed with fulfilling the desires of flesh. He traded his inheritance for a bowl of soup. A theme we see repeated over and over again and beautifully retold by the Christ in the famous Prodigal Son Parable.

Christ showed us that a life dedicated to pleasing the desires of flesh, the pursuit of wealth, sexual gratification, the allure of power and control over others, the pleasure of violence and revenge, the security of shrinking in the face of fear etc. etc. rather than a life devoted to cultivating the power of the spirit then transitioning into releasing the power of Christ within us by absorbing the negative, dark energy of the world (forgive others, turn the cheek, give a second cloak, sell all your goods and give to the poor, love your neighbor, lay down your life for a friend, heal the sick, release the demonically oppressed even reverse death).

That is the path of enlightenment, power, and ultimate ascension to rejoin the Source, our Father the Creator and it is a path that is made clear and possible by and through the Christ for we abide in Him and He in us and He abides in the Father. The path of flesh and serving it's desires is the path of destruction and one will continually have to suffer the discipline of multiple lives in that flesh (or periods of greater discipline in Sheol/Hell) until they are awakened to the light of Christ, or ultimately upon the end of this present Age if their soul refuses enlightenment time after time after time then it will ultimately be disposed of and be no more as to not corrupt the new era where the Spirit Realm and Physical Realm become one creating a new existence for all that is.

Of course the Romans like the Babylonians before them and the Sumerians before them based their civilization on serving and pursuing the desires of flesh. When they took control of the Logos (Word) their strategy only evolved and it has been evolving ever since to this day.

Everything one needs to see the true nature of the church can be found in Mardi Gras...yes Mardi Gras. A celebration of flesh fulfillment before a time of flesh denial (Lent). Either way the masses are consumed with the flesh.

It is in the church's best interests to keep their customer base "sinful". Keep sinning, keep needing our priests for confession, keep needing our guidance, keep needing our charity, keep needing our "wisdom", keep needing our protection, keep needing our baptisms, keep needing our "keys" into heaven and keep fearing eternal damnation in hell and of course keep giving us your money, your service, your lands, your worship, your loyalty and assist us in wiping out anyone who dares think or believe otherwise.

The church is the ultimate "middle-man" which is ironic since it is painfully obvious from the teachings of Christ that one of the primary reasons he came to earth was to eliminate all "middle-men" between us and the Creator.

It's very hard to profit from and control a mass of people who are free from the passions of flesh, the allure of wealth and the lust of power, a people who are empowered by an energy source not of this world and in need of nothing this world has to offer, a people that absorbs hate and releases love, a people with whom nothing is impossible, a people with free will and the power to exercise it for every good thing.

Convince the divine soul that it is a creature, that it is perpetually evil and sinful or that it alone should be in control and rule and you can turn the divine son or daughter of the Most High into your slave and that is the force of evil, that is Satan, for where there is control there is Satan where there is freedom there is Christ.

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone
catwhoknowsplusone,

I would like to define "church" just a bit different than that a building or temple or great cathedral as the church. His church is actually where two or three are gathered together in His name and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The scripture states "must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth".

That means He is not in the midst if error is being taught and promoted.

Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I am not a member of any denominational church but I am of that "invisible" church.

We don't stand alone in Him.

Blessings and peace.

Truthiron..

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone

 

catwhoknowsplusone,

I would like to define "church" just a bit different than that a building or temple or great cathedral as the church. His church is actually where two or three are gathered together in His name and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The scripture states "must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth".

That means He is not in the midst if error is being taught and promoted.

Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I am not a member of any denominational church but I am of that "invisible" church.

We don't stand alone in Him.

Blessings and peace.

Truthiron..

Many use the quote in Matthew 18:20 as you have done in error by not interpreting the phrase within the context of which it is used. In this case it is clearly within the context of a fellow follower of Christ falling into a sin(s) or a dispute with another Believer. Christ gives clear teaching on the process of how such matters are to be handled and ultimately resolved. In essence Christ is establishing the legal process for His followers, once again a process designed to help each other let go of the needs of the flesh and operate by the spirit. The sense of the text in regards to verse 20 is that Christ is presiding over the proceeding bearing witness. The tone of the original and the context shows that this is about accountability so when dealing with disputes and judgements regarding sin we should proceed VERY cautiously because Christ is watching.

Once again when you consider that this text is sandwiched between the parable of the Shepherd whose compassion compels Him to leave the 99 to go after the one lost sheep and then the parable of the unmerciful servant who was forgiven a great debt by the master who then goes and ruthlessly punishes those who had an even smaller debt to him, you get even more clarity on the character of Christ and how he handles us in our failings so do likewise when we handle those whom we must now judge in a matter of dispute or sin. Once again another process designed to let go of the flesh's desire to release darkness and inspire one to deny self and follow the spirit which leads to the absorbing of darkness. Logically, if two people deny their selfish desires you will never have a dispute, of course that is the end-game of a surrendered soul to the Light of Christ, and since it is a life-long endeavor, this process is designed to bring these people in dispute a step closer to that goal and avoiding an escalation that could lead to destruction.

If we interpret the text as you and most teachers in the church would like to interpret it, then we are making some potentially pretty big logical fallicies. For one, many throughout history have gathered "under Christ's name" and have made horribly barbaric and self-serving mandates and decisions, for it is no doubt that every Inquistion was done so under "Christ's name". Which means Christ sanctions these horrible deeds, since in effect, "He was in on the decision with us..."

It also assumes that others required to attain the presence of Christ. A concept that is vary contrary to Scripture not to mention for the soldier isolated in enemy territory or the persecuted believer alone in a prison or the desperate person feeling cut-off from the world and in need of the comforting presence of the Christ. Of course none of this negates the reality that when many like-minded people are gathered together and our righteous in their hearts that power is only magnified or increased in many cases.

It is interesting to note within that text that when done in purity and love as sanctioned by Christ, whatever is decided in the physical realm (bind on earth) will be mirrored in the spiritual realm (bound in heaven). This is powerful teaching. The problem is that when people gather together in any chruch of any religion today it is done so under the framework of self-serving or political agenda and not for the purpose of helping one another and the world to release the hold of their flesh and unlock the power of their spirit, the spirit of Christ within them.

Therefore since all the machinations of most religious assemblies are done within the context of only affecting the material world (growing OUR church, increasing OUR building, increasing MY notoriety, selling MY books, DVD's and CD's, being the lead speaker at OUR conference/denomination meeting, becoming the ONE in charge, putting the spotlight on MY talents, MY skills, MY wisdom, increasing OUR power, OUR influence, OUR wealth), you can see that there is very little to nothing be released in the power of the spiritual world when so many are focused on pacifying their own lustful agendas.

reply to post by Pervius

The supreme being ordered everyone to call him YHWH.
He also said not to idolize anyone or anything but him.

Who is this "supreme being" you are talking about. I'm pretty sure that is an English phrase.
YHWH is something like you say is hard for us to comprehend as a Hebrew word.
I think it means something like, My True Self As I Actually Am, meaning not a representation
of God but God as He is, which is a spiritual thing, like a burning flame. Of course that is not
what God is since it would not be something visible like that, but there was this thing, a
manifestation of something very much beyond the ordinary, that had a behavior and a voice,
and definitely not something like the golden calf, which was an inanimate object meat to
give the mere appearance of a god.

YHWH was using the fact that He was changing the course of history, in a way that directly
affected the Hebrews, as a rationale for why they should pay attention to Him and the way
they were supposed to demonstrate that was by following some commandments.

Jesus was demonstrating on a daily basis that he was intervening in human history and
that people should pay attention because his works should have been obviously from God.
Jesus did not have to show some spiritual power at that very moment but he later
demonstrated his power over all things spiritual at Pentecost, with the people who were
the new spiritual Hebrews by way of their faith in him.
So, Jesus as god is not making flood waters to sweep aside the enemy and he is not
overpowering people with this huge trumpet voice from the mountain top, he is persuading
people, Take my yoke, which is to follow his word and to take it as your law.
If we bend the knee and bow to Jesus as our Lord, when we commit no crime against
YHWH because as impressive as he was, this meek and mild man who came to Palestine
to be the new lawgiver is no image like a golden calf but is entrusted with the life and the
knowledge and the work of God Himself.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Most "God-haters/deniers" are so because of the context of which He has been presented to mankind since the early 300's when the church, it's "surviving" theologians and the Roman emperors decided to turn the Creator into...a Roman Emperor.

It is without a doubt, Rome had figured out an effective way to unite and control a barbaric world. Needless to say it is not THE Way.

When they turned god into a Roman emperor he became worthy of our hatred, too bad that He is not.

Sure, within the context of a Roman emperor god, one can see a tyrant, mercilessly dealing with humanity for what seems to be his own amusement.

Within the context of a God who created a new life and existence for that life and a free will to exercise in many wonderous and unfortunately frightening ways we see a very different kind of God.

There is not a single solitary "law" in the O.T. that is not designed to prevent the pain and/or suffering of the individual themself or the people around them.
There is not a single solitary act or command that although many perceive unjust and cruel was not acutally done so in order to protect and preserve a promise made to mankind or to preserve the genetic code of humanity or to allow lost souls bent on destruction another opportunity to find truth in another life. (Yes, I believe the Bible teaches reincarnation, but it has been harshly suppressed by the church because it clearly threatens their control and undermines the "Emperor god" they have so carefully crafted for millenia).

God has allowed destruction and evil to happen so that the greater good and the greater life may be preserved, and also that the line of the Christ may be preserved knowing that He chooses to do so out of respect fo the rules of free will that He designed and the reality that souls have many opportunities to taste this life and find their path knowing it His will that none should perish and all come to repentance and that He who began this work will finish it until it's completed.

If the God of the O.T. is such an evil jerk then explain to me how out of the entire city of Jericho, the only persons that are spared are the local single-mom whore and her sons? Not only were they spared, but Rahab was also chosen to be a descendant of the Christ.

You can either see the god your flesh wants to see, or the god the powers that be want you to see, or you can see the God that is.

Many use the quote in Matthew 18:20 as you have done in error by not interpreting the phrase within the context of which it is used. In this case it is clearly within the context of a fellow follower of Christ falling into a sin(s) or a dispute with another Believer. Christ gives clear teaching on the process of how such matters are to be handled and ultimately resolved. In essence Christ is establishing the legal process for His followers, once again a process designed to help each other let go of the needs of the flesh and operate by the spirit. The sense of the text in regards to verse 20 is that Christ is presiding over the proceeding bearing witness. The tone of the original and the context shows that this is about accountability so when dealing with disputes and judgements regarding sin we should proceed VERY cautiously because Christ is watching.

Once again when you consider that this text is sandwiched between the parable of the Shepherd whose compassion compels Him to leave the 99 to go after the one lost sheep and then the parable of the unmerciful servant who was forgiven a great debt by the master who then goes and ruthlessly punishes those who had an even smaller debt to him, you get even more clarity on the character of Christ and how he handles us in our failings so do likewise when we handle those whom we must now judge in a matter of dispute or sin. Once again another process designed to let go of the flesh's desire to release darkness and inspire one to deny self and follow the spirit which leads to the absorbing of darkness. Logically, if two people deny their selfish desires you will never have a dispute, of course that is the end-game of a surrendered soul to the Light of Christ, and since it is a life-long endeavor, this process is designed to bring these people in dispute a step closer to that goal and avoiding an escalation that could lead to destruction.

If we interpret the text as you and most teachers in the church would like to interpret it, then we are making some potentially pretty big logical fallicies. For one, many throughout history have gathered "under Christ's name" and have made horribly barbaric and self-serving mandates and decisions, for it is no doubt that every Inquistion was done so under "Christ's name". Which means Christ sanctions these horrible deeds, since in effect, "He was in on the decision with us..."

It also assumes that others required to attain the presence of Christ. A concept that is vary contrary to Scripture not to mention for the soldier isolated in enemy territory or the persecuted believer alone in a prison or the desperate person feeling cut-off from the world and in need of the comforting presence of the Christ. Of course none of this negates the reality that when many like-minded people are gathered together and our righteous in their hearts that power is only magnified or increased in many cases.

It is interesting to note within that text that when done in purity and love as sanctioned by Christ, whatever is decided in the physical realm (bind on earth) will be mirrored in the spiritual realm (bound in heaven). This is powerful teaching. The problem is that when people gather together in any chruch of any religion today it is done so under the framework of self-serving or political agenda and not for the purpose of helping one another and the world to release the hold of their flesh and unlock the power of their spirit, the spirit of Christ within them.

Therefore since all the machinations of most religious assemblies are done within the context of only affecting the material world (growing OUR church, increasing OUR building, increasing MY notoriety, selling MY books, DVD's and CD's, being the lead speaker at OUR conference/denomination meeting, becoming the ONE in charge, putting the spotlight on MY talents, MY skills, MY wisdom, increasing OUR power, OUR influence, OUR wealth), you can see that there is very little to nothing be released in the power of the spiritual world when so many are focused on pacifying their own lustful agendas.




My Reply,

Well If "He" isn't in the midst then who is being worshipped. The very point I was making you seem to have not caught. We can be anywhere and have that fellowship with Him and all who are at that time. It isn't the building or pompus sevice and hoopala that makes church, it is His Presence with one or two or more. It is only His Presence that constitutes church. Again If He isn't there who are you worshiping?

He is not there if error is being taught or upheld, as I've shown "must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth" That surely isn't hard to see is it?

That is the reason He will say to many "I never knew you".

The denominational churches don't like that statement because they want you to think He is only there in that building or congregation. You do not have to be a member of any of them to be in His Church.

A home church, that is what the book of Acts. is about a lot.

Walking in His Way.

Truthiron.

Originally posted by JudgedCover
Yes, the church has done a masterful work for the last 2 millenia of mutilating the true message and teachings of Christ. Yet the truth is right there in the very pages of the Bible as it exists today (the full Bible has been successfully suppressed and/or destroyed from human record, and no I'm not talking about the Gnostic texts).

In the very beginning we are plainly told that we have the divine spark within us, unless created in His image simply is referring to a "shape"...

. Christ came to show us how to release that divine spark (parable of the seeds, mustard seed, vine/fruit) and cultivate it to it's flourishing.

For 4000 years of recorded Biblical history the Bible teaches a clear message of Karma (sow/reap), the only defense against our output of dark energy (sin) was to allow a sacrificed beast to absorb it as it was a symbol for the One who would be the ultimate sacrifice who would absorb that energy once and for all and empower us to do the same.

Christ came to show us the way, truth and life by unleashing the power of Christ that is within us all that simply lies dormant under generations of darkness under the curse brought about by the defiance of the Creator's natural order for the pleasure of serving self.

Biblical story after story reveals these truths. One of my favorites is the narrative of the 2 son's of Isaac, Jacob and Esau. Esau's soul was "hated" by the Creator because it would never seek the path of the Spirit, rather it would be consumed with fulfilling the desires of flesh. He traded his inheritance for a bowl of soup. A theme we see repeated over and over again and beautifully retold by the Christ in the famous Prodigal Son Parable.

Christ showed us that a life dedicated to pleasing the desires of flesh, the pursuit of wealth, sexual gratification, the allure of power and control over others, the pleasure of violence and revenge, the security of shrinking in the face of fear etc. etc. rather than a life devoted to cultivating the power of the spirit then transitioning into releasing the power of Christ within us by absorbing the negative, dark energy of the world (forgive others, turn the cheek, give a second cloak, sell all your goods and give to the poor, love your neighbor, lay down your life for a friend, heal the sick, release the demonically oppressed even reverse death).

That is the path of enlightenment, power, and ultimate ascension to rejoin the Source, our Father the Creator and it is a path that is made clear and possible by and through the Christ for we abide in Him and He in us and He abides in the Father. The path of flesh and serving it's desires is the path of destruction and one will continually have to suffer the discipline of multiple lives in that flesh (or periods of greater discipline in Sheol/Hell) until they are awakened to the light of Christ, or ultimately upon the end of this present Age if their soul refuses enlightenment time after time after time then it will ultimately be disposed of and be no more as to not corrupt the new era where the Spirit Realm and Physical Realm become one creating a new existence for all that is.

Of course the Romans like the Babylonians before them and the Sumerians before them based their civilization on serving and pursuing the desires of flesh. When they took control of the Logos (Word) their strategy only evolved and it has been evolving ever since to this day.

Everything one needs to see the true nature of the church can be found in Mardi Gras...yes Mardi Gras. A celebration of flesh fulfillment before a time of flesh denial (Lent). Either way the masses are consumed with the flesh.

It is in the church's best interests to keep their customer base "sinful". Keep sinning, keep needing our priests for confession, keep needing our guidance, keep needing our charity, keep needing our "wisdom", keep needing our protection, keep needing our baptisms, keep needing our "keys" into heaven and keep fearing eternal damnation in hell and of course keep giving us your money, your service, your lands, your worship, your loyalty and assist us in wiping out anyone who dares think or believe otherwise.

The church is the ultimate "middle-man" which is ironic since it is painfully obvious from the teachings of Christ that one of the primary reasons he came to earth was to eliminate all "middle-men" between us and the Creator.

It's very hard to profit from and control a mass of people who are free from the passions of flesh, the allure of wealth and the lust of power, a people who are empowered by an energy source not of this world and in need of nothing this world has to offer, a people that absorbs hate and releases love, a people with whom nothing is impossible, a people with free will and the power to exercise it for every good thing.

Convince the divine soul that it is a creature, that it is perpetually evil and sinful or that it alone should be in control and rule and you can turn the divine son or daughter of the Most High into your slave and that is the force of evil, that is Satan, for where there is control there is Satan where there is freedom there is Christ.

Awesome totally awesome. Well done! This was the spirit of truth speaking through you. Thank you for this.

I am so happy that this conversation is beginning to take place in earnest. We need to be eating and drinking more Christ, and become free people as we were meant to be, free to love, free to be good for goodness' sake. What peace and joy and utter happiness that is!
Thank you God for Jesus Christ, who was, who is and who is to come, and who's Spirit is alive and well, being the same spirit of truth and love from age to age.

reply to post by JudgedCover

. . .if their soul refuses enlightenment time after time after time then it will ultimately be disposed of. . .

Sounds like a lot of paganism to me.
Is that your religion? Paganism.

reply to post by truthiron


amen, brother.

reply to post by JudgedCover
At the top of your post it says, reply to jmdewey
did you just hit the reply to button because it just
happened to be the latest post, or where you addressing
something in my post? because I can't figure out what it is
if that is the case.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by JudgedCover

 

At the top of your post it says, reply to jmdewey
did you just hit the reply to button because it just
happened to be the latest post, or where you addressing
something in my post? because I can't figure out what it is
if that is the case.

Hit the wrong reply to button, my apologies, sir!

To your original question, no I am not a pagan. If it is necessary to you to classify me then I leave that task to you. As for me, at this present moment, I am me. The me who I was is not the me who I am and I believe the me I will be is not the me I am today.

If what I am sounds like paganism to you, then I ask you why? Is it because of what you believe or what you have been told to believe? If it is necessary for you to understand who I am but what I believe and not by what I do then know that I believe first and foresmost that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. That He is the way, the truth and the life. I believe that, "through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live unto God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."

If my belief in reincarnation causes you to pause, then know that it once made me cringe too, my former masters had indoctrinated me well. Unfortunately, I had to believe in it. Of course there were the very obvious texts of Scripture that had to be "spun" errrr theologically explained away in order to fit the company line, but what REALLY got me was the babies. Yeah the babies, the aborted ones, the miscarried ones, the ones that just died for various reasons, oh and the mentally handicappled people oh and the multitudes of people around the world throughout history in jungles, on islands in mountains who pass from this world never hearing the name Jesus, but it was mainly the babies.

Of course a study of church history shows that babies have been creating a HUGE problem for church theologians for quite some time. Some decided the solution was sprinkling...too bad for the ones who dies in the womb or in the remote corners of a medieval world that didn't make it to mass on time. Since that had to many holes in it, they then decided to create Predestination which evolved into Calvinism. That solved the problems logically, the dead babies all go to hell because they weren't "Elect!" Unfortunately it made it impossible to have a God that was Love and Mercy while at the same time being Just and Righteous, it did however accomodate a god as Roman emperor profile quite nicely. Of course there are also all those pesky scriptures about free will and God wanting all to be saved which I guess you could twist around as good as they twisted all the texts about sovereignty and foreknowledge. Well since a lot of people didn't want to view God as an evil A-hole tyrant who predestines some to eternal hell and some to eternal life in heaven based upon his own whims, a world where free-will doesn't exist, a world where concepts like "righteousness" "justices" "fairness" are to mean one thing for us, but an entirely other thing to God, they had to create another solution for those people.

Hence, the most widely believed solution in today's churches regarding dead babies..."the Age of Accountability". Well it's a wonderful concept that basically beleives that there is a certain age where a child becomes aware of right and wrong and capable of understanding the concept of salvation and at THAT magical age they are expected to repent or suffer eternal damnation in hell should they meed their tragic demise AFTER said magical age. Well this teaching solves the God isn't an A-hole problem, but unfortunately, the scriptures teach NOTHING about the Age of Accountability. Quite the opposite acutally...."from my WOMB I was a sinner..." "...even a CHILD is known by his doing..." "...there is NONE righteous, no not one..." Whatever scriptural soup believers in this concept can scrape up at best LOOSELY associates this with truth and even then NO scholars can agree on what this magical age is, ranging from 5 all the way to age 20.

The logical argument is what condemns this Age of Accountability the most. If there is a magical time when a child is immune to judgement then the greatest evangelists of our time are abortion doctors, for they have put more souls in heaven than any preacher. Not to mention, how could any loving parent not kill their baby if it guaranteed eternal life in heaven with God? What kind of monster would allow their child to reach an age where they would then risk judgement and an eternal life in hell? Think that's crazytalk? Google Andrea Yates. Not to mention none of this addresses what happens to mentally handicapped people or people who lived beyond the preaching of the Gospel who should qualify for immunity just as much as children do under these rules.

So you see, when I thoroughly allowed my thoughts and my study of scripture penetrate me in regards to the children/babies/unborn who die it really opened Pandora's Box, a perfect storm of Scripture, the Nature of God, Doctrine and basic logic and reason.

Based on this I came away with only five options:

1. God sends babies/fetuses/children etc to hell. Meaning all the scriptures pertaining to the nature of his love and mercy and justice are false, therefore God is false.

2. Such souls are immune to judgement because of A. Infant Baptism or B. the Age of Accountability. Meaning all the scriptures regarding the sin condition of man are false and it is logically sound yes even morally responsible to murder children before they are accountable, or baptising them which magically cleanses them before they even comprehend who and what they are and who or what God is. Not to mention to adhere to either belief requires a created doctrine that fills in blanks and is unsupported by Scripture...yeah that's always went well throughout history hasn't it?

3. Become a Calvinist. Deny free will and accept that God predestines all to heaven or hell and we are merely puppets on a divine stage for God's amusement and absolutely anything any of us do is completely irrelevant therefore making God a tyrant, a liar and the universe's ultimate narcissist.

4. Become an Athiest. Reason that this aspect of religion alone is enought to prove the idiocy and logical bankruptcy of faith in a God who is perfect, all-powerful and all-knowing yet at the same time capable of either harsh, unjust eternal damnation of babies/children/fetus'/mentallychallenged/tribal people etc. or aloof and contradictory on explaining one of the most important acts that affects a parent...the eternal outcome of their beloved child should they die.

5. Believe in Reincarnation. The most rational, logical, scientifically plausible explanation that does not contradict the Bible nor the nature of God.

In fact, when one truly begins to open their heart and mind to this truth, there are so many blanks/contradictions/difficulties that are sufficiently made peace with.

You reap what you sow....check
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction...check
God is Just yet God is merciful....check
All life is precious...check
All sins are punished....check
Why do bad things happen to seemingly good people...check

Why does Revelation 1:7 say that the eyes of those who pierced Jesus will witness his return to the Earth?....check

Why does John 10 teach that a man born blind could have been so because of sin? What in the womb? Or from a previous life....check

Why does Malachi 4:5 state that Elijah must come before the Messiah and why does Jesus tell his discilples that he did and his name was John and even told them "if you can accept this..."

Why did Jesus tell so many, the people of Jerusalem, the Disciples, the Pharisees/Sadducees/Priests that they would all see the Son Of Man return on the clouds to earth? Are they still alive? Is their closed circuit Television in Hell?

If Hebrews 9:26,27 is to be interpreted that all men must die once then judgement, then it's heaven or hell time buddy, then can you please explain to me where the 2000 year old Lazarus is? Jairus' daughter? Tabitha? the widow's sun raised by Elijah? The many people who's graves opened and were resurrected when Jesus died in Jerusalem? Either that interpretation is incorrect of that verse, or it's a lie, or all the texts regarding resurrections are a lie, or there a bunch of resurrected people who have been hangin out here for a few thousand years.

Why did Solomon in Eccliasiastes worn wicked men to cease sinning lest they be born with a curse?

...and many many more

Why are there so many followers of Christ and believes in the Bible like Edgar Cayce who when studying the Scriptures WITHOUT the slantings of church theologians can find nothing against reincarnation, but rather the opposite?

Why do almost all religions recognize this concept? Even Judaism, yes to be a Hacidic Jew is to believe reincarnation.

And the question to ask why do the few that don't...don't? What is there to be gained in such a teaching?

Like I said, I wanted to reject reincarnation, keep it neatly in the hands of the cults, the heathens, the new-agers, the Hindus, the Buddhists, you know the weirdos, but to do so I had to deny the Bible, or believe God was cruel and unjust, or become a Calvinist, or buy in to the made-up Age of Accountability, all of which only served as an answer to part of the problems created by conundrums like infant death.

...or

Accept Reincarnation, a teaching that makes peace with all of these questions and even makes Mr. Newton and the law of Physics happy to boot. Psst...not to mention, most of the church fathers like Origen, taught it too...well until the church led by a Roman Emperor put an end to that because fear of hell fire and only one shot to miss it makes the sheep a whole lot easier to control. Origen also believed that the Nephilim had infiltrated the church too...they condemned him for that as well and the "Sons of Seth" idiocy was put into motion by the "theologians" to explain away those interesting passages...but that's a discussion for another time!




EDIT: I forgot to mention that after infant baptism and Calvinism, the Catholic church also created the concept of "Limbo" to accomodate the dead babies' souls....I probably don't need to break that one down, do I?

reply to post by JudgedCover

. . .former masters had indoctrinated me well.

Wow, that sounds horrific! (not even being sarcastic)
Sorry if I seem so probing into your personal life but you are sort of odd, don't you think?
Forgive me for being so curious but were you handed over to a monastery as a child?