You Sin. You Spend Eternity In Hell. No Deal.

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posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 01:15 AM
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Now, regrettably I am not an academic in theology (or anything for that matter). I do enjoy learning about the plethora of different beliefs that exist and am an avid fan of history. I like to think my thoughts and ideas and understandings of things (life in general) are based in logic and percieved knowledge of my surroundings.

I am agnostic, but have no qualms with religion or religious people.

I can be annoyed by those that wish to use scare tactics in trying to convert others to a particular belief and this is where my (possible) misunderstandings or in some cases other peoples mis-interpretations need to be addressed, cleared or refuted.

I welcome all opinions even if you believe in hell and believe you will spend eternity in a fiery pit. Im not here to try to un-convert you or change your mind. You are here to tell me why your belief is logical.

Heres my point:

Lets take THEE most evil person living on earth or has ever lived. Lets say he lives 80 years, and a day does not go by without him committing some atrocious act. Lets say he rapes, murders, steals and ruins thousands of lives. He never repents and doesn't remotely believe in the modern day interpretation of a Jesus Christ or Abrahamic God. Obviously, a prime candidate for hell.

OK. Its hard for a mind to wrap around a concept of eternity. Forever. Infinity. But this poor soul, according to some, will pay indefinitely for the sins he has committed over one 80 year lifetime. A milisecond and blink of an eye in the un-understood mystery that is time.

How, is this logical in anyway? Maybe a lifetime for every life he ruined times ten is logical and reasonable. But after his brain has far lost the memories of what he did millions of years ago he is in this torment that is never ending and ceaseless. No lesson is learned and no good comes of it. In fact I think it is easy to say that the man would easily loose his mind (again I dont believe minds exist after death, just following the logic prescribed by the belief) and all punishment becomes completely useless.

How is this logical? And how would a loving creator create such a torturous unforgiving punishment?

I fully understand not all Abrahamic believers (Christians, Jews, Muslims) believe this particular belief should be interpreted literally. I am addressing those that take this "teaching" literally.




posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 02:07 AM
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The early church taught reincarnation..aka, you screw up, you do it again.

It was much later on that they removed the reincarnation bit and decided an eternal hell worked the numbers up higher.


The earliest Christians, especially those who were members of one or other of the Gnostic sects, such as the Valentinians, Ophites and Ebionites, included reimbodiment among their important teachings. For them it enabled fulfillment of the law -- karma -- as well as providing the means for the soul to purify itself from the muddy qualities resulting from its immersion in matter and the egoism we have developed in the first stages of our journey through earth life.

After the original generations of Christians, we find the early Church Fathers, such as Justin Martyr (AD 100-l65), St. Clement of Alexandria ( AD 150-220), and Origen ( AD 185-254) teaching the pre-existence of souls, taking up reincarnation or one or another aspect of reimbodiment. Examples are scattered through Origen's works, especially Contra Celsum (1, xxxii), where he asks: "Is it not rational that souls should be introduced into bodies, in accordance with their merits and previous deeds . . . ?" And in De Principiis he says that "the soul has neither beginning nor end." St. Jerome (AD 340-420), translator of the Latin version of the Bible known as the Vulgate, in his Letter to Demetrias (a Roman matron), states that some Christian sects in his day taught a form of reincarnation as an esoteric doctrine, imparting it to a few "as a traditional truth which was not to be divulged."


There is alot of info out there on the early churches. What they teach today is not what the original movements of christianity stood for. It has been corrputed by corporate church doctrain. Crusaders slaughtered most other sects and pure christians long ago and the bastardized paul version became tops because that gave the strongest control over the fates of the people.

and no...none of it makes sense. thats why you have to be gullible...erm, I mean...have faith that what they tell you is actually a deity telling you.
Step 1 in accepting modern day christianity...lose logic.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 02:26 AM
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SaturnFX is spot on. The bible has been raped for the past 2000 years, so the original teachings have been forgotten or twisted so much in a sense that they are untraceable. You are no more following the word of "God" than the words of some politicians (priests).

With that been said, apparently, regardless of what you do in life, God is forgiving. So you can do whatever the hell you want here, he will accept you in heaven as long as you accept him as your saviour. Hitler is in heaven right now, laughing it up with Jesus (if all these fairy tales are real)

While Stalin is making them coffee as they had just come back from a wild night out.
edit on 31-12-2010 by Somehumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Well with The gnostic idea of reincarnation you can only exert so much control.
"You mean if I'm bad ill just come back and re-experience this again." vs
"You mean if I'm bad and don't submit to your authority I will roast in the lake of fire forever?"

The second one was the one that kept people under the authority of the church and you could even buy off your sins if you needed so it was a great way of making money. Not to mention that the church had some great propaganda to remind you of what a bad place you where headed too if you didn't submit to it's authority.


It's a formula so successful that it is used by many denominations even today not to mention
that Islam also uses the Hell Heaven concept.
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posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by Somehumanbeing
 


That is a disgraceful interpretation of karmic law you should be shamed.

I'm sorry but this ignorant nonsense is started to get to be a little much.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 02:44 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


That's what christianity basically teaches you. Accept Jesus as your saviour and you go to heaven. All your sins will be forgiven if you do so. Otherwise, you go to hell.

If you think this is ridiculous, I agree with you. But let your beef be with the morons that edited the bible, not me. Karma and Christianity do not go hand in hand.


By the way, I'm not Christian and I don't believe in Karma.
edit on 31-12-2010 by Somehumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Somehumanbeing
 


That is a disgraceful interpretation of karmic law you should be shamed.

I'm sorry but this ignorant nonsense is started to get to be a little much.


I think the way karmic law works is much like...if you were a rich and greedy person in this life, next life, you may end up in some back alley struggling for survival in india. Free will will allow you to maybe crawl out of the impoverished hole you were born into, but then you may gain an appreciation for other things beyond what cool stuff you own.

However, the buddists believe that such a child is blessed verses cursed. the world is a series of training levels. Being born into a rich home with little struggles is sort of the easy intro course, being born into a near hell of living is meant only for the very strong souls, etc.

All just philosophy of course..but if one or the other was true, I would hope a following life would be the effects of karma to reward or punish your life this go around.

Frankly, I would just want to move on...go fishing in some cosmic interdimensional ocean, get lots of fried foods and women, and live in paradise if I could toss a vote in for a afterlife. Deity not included...unless it was like, a really cool deity..like Gandalf or something.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 03:56 AM
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Oh, another school of thought is that if all things are actually just one behind the veil, then there can be no evil in the certain sense because every part simply plays the role needed for the others experience.

You cannot say a person is a heroic warrior if there was no good fight to fight in. the person required a war, a slew of "evil" troops, and all sorts to attain his path in life.

Hitler did his thing, and from it came all sorts of reactions that defined many people for multiple generations, to include entire world shifts.

just figured I would toss that into the mix.

After all, if a perfect creator created humans, would it create something flawed, or just something we couldn't possibly understand...

gotta love speculation



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 04:00 AM
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Morality is an individual concept. A universal good/evil does not exist. Read "Beyond Good and Evil" by Friedrich Nietzsche. Lots of good material there.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 04:13 AM
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My idea of hell is facing the consequences of our actions. While we may see some of the results in this reality, it is on the other side where we confront all the nitty gritty detail as we view who we truly are. I consider this is as one reason why some ghosts are too scared to move on and decide to stick around.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 08:17 AM
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reply to post by open_eyeballs
 
open_eyeballs,

There certainly is no eternally burning hell fire. Please read a thread I made "There is No Eternal Hell Fire" and you will see that can not be true. Some want to make that idea out of it but is incorrect.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 10:12 AM
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A general Christian belief is not that "you sin, you go to hell," because we all sin, that's just a part of our nature. Another Christian belief is that, while "deathbed recantations" are possible (as witnessed by the scene on the cross with the repentant thief) it is unlikely that such a repentance would be truly heartfelt -- the person in question is likely regretting their death and punishment, more so than regretting their actions.

Hell isn't viewed as a place for eternal human punishment (which I think is what TruthIron is referring to -- the notion that Hell is "oblivion" not punishment) but that it was created for housing Satan and the rest of the rebellious angels. As a result, it is the only place in the divine realm where one is apart from God.

So, a person who has spent their life on Earth choosing to be apart from God finds themselves in the afterlife, before God. In one view (there are others, but this is the most common,) God, who is infinitely just, grants that person what they demand -- existence apart from him. But, as there is only one place in that realm where this desire can be granted, Hell is the only option.

In the original Jewish faith, the notion of heaven and hell wasn't part of it, there was just simply Sheol. It is a Christian belief that Christ was the first person in heaven, and that during the time between death and resurrection, he preached the Gospel to those in the Jewish underworld. So it was definitely a Christian notion, and reincarnation was never a part of mainstream Judaism or Christianity -- that was an aspect of "mystery" sects of them, but not a common belief. That is, and has always been, one birth, one death and one resurrection.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 01:40 PM
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This reminds me of twilight episode I just watched. A gangster dies and goes into the afterlife. He gets everything he's ever wanted. But it just doesn't feel right to him. He wants a chance of something to happen instead of it automatically happening. He asks to go to hell, thinking he's in heaven. Then the person explains he is in hell. Sometimes this is how I think satan works. Promisies the world make them go crazy. Moral of the story: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



A general Christian belief is not that "you sin, you go to hell,"


uuuhhh, yes indeed it is.

Again, though, I was addressing those that believe this to be the literal belief. Jesus was a hellinistic Jew. So was Paul and the disciples.

there are millions of fundamentalist Christians that believe this to be the literal case. You sin, dont repent, you spend eternity in hell.

This is a major belief that tens of millions of Christians believe throughout the world. It is sad. thats why I address it, and thats why I point out its basic ant-logic approach to punishment.



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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Another thing people need to remember is Jesus was a revolutionist.

the commonly accepted belief within Judaism is that if you "sinned" and didn't follow the ways of the torah then your life ended at the grave (which is what i believe, but not in reliogious terms).

jesus was about hell. a fiery burning pit. maybe he didnt mean this to be literal. maybe it was supposed to be interpreted figuratively. I don't know. Im not a scholar.

this was one of the many things that went against the jewish grain if you will. he was for overthrowing the romans, and not allowing the common jew to be treated as a slave. many of his teachings (in my opinion) are mis interpreted as all peaceful turn t he other cheek kind of stuff. absolutely not the case.

simply was not the case and a result of people misinterpreting and superimposing the wrong things to christians, mostly due to Pauls skewing of what jesus said in his own letters to the greeks. jesus wanted to fight the romans, at least on an individual scale. he said, dont lie down and take their crap.

remember paul was a roman...country first...



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by adjensen
 



A general Christian belief is not that "you sin, you go to hell,"


uuuhhh, yes indeed it is.

.. Snip ..

there are millions of fundamentalist Christians that believe this to be the literal case. You sin, dont repent, you spend eternity in hell.


If you bothered to read what I wrote (or took the time to understand it) this is, in fact, what I said, and it is not a fundamentalist belief. Sinning is not what damns you, it is sinning without repentance and seeking forgiveness that does it.

Christians who are not in some state of denial will be the first to admit that they are sinners. Even the most pious falls short of God, so if that was the determinant, heaven would be a pretty empty place.



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


i was addressing one point you said that i believe to be mistaken. It is indeed a common belief, whether you like or accept that. It is preached in thousands of churches across the nation and world.

The rest of your post was fine and didnt see a need to comment to. Sorry?



posted on Jan, 9 2011 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by open_eyeballs
 


Everlasting life in Hell is a BIG FAT LIE

THE ONLY WAY TO EVERLASTING LIFE IS THROUGH JESUS
The door is narrow and few find it. It is the ONLY way to the Kingdom.
Jesus loves you more than you could ever know, He does not wish
for ANYONE to perish (be destroyed) in the lake of fire. The lake of fire
is the second death, a permanent death.
Everyone will be punished according to their sins. God is the perfect judge.
A person that commits atrocities everyday of his life will have his punishment
in the lake of fire. However those believing in Jesus as the true Son of God
will be covered by His precious blood. You will know who is of God by their works.
You do not have to -try- to be good, rather if you are born again, your nature is
to do the fathers will. Even a believer can sin- but there is no condemnation
for those in Christ. Everything is lawful, but not everything if helpful. For there
are still consequences for sin in this world. God bless you.
edit on 9-1-2011 by freedish because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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reply to post by open_eyeballs
 


I like the OPs rationale. if i ever commit murder I want him as my defense attorney. Since if I use a gun hypothetically, lets say it take me 3 seconds to murder the other person. I'd therefore have the OP argue for a 3 second jail sentence for me. After all, it only took me 3 seconds to commit the crime.



posted on Jul, 24 2012 @ 04:12 PM
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I have wondered this same thing before. If Hell exists and is an eternal punishment, how is it possible to end up there by doing something within a finite time, with finite understanding. Its like if a guy was sent to 10000 years in prison for jaywalking. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. Eternity in hell will endure so long that your lifespan on Earth will eventually reach zero by comparison. In other words, you will suffer in Hell for having done absolutely nothing. Which equates to: you have always been, are, and will be, in Hell. Seems fair.





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