Actual Roswell Newspaper Text - The "Smoking Gun" - NO UFO!

reply to post by backinblack


Just to answer that question somebody may tell you if I'm wrong but I think they were only testing the balloon not actually spying sorry pal

reply to post by simples
I think you're right simples.
www.nmt.edu...

At the time, 1947, the United States was concerned with listening for nuclear testing by other countries, especially the Soviet Union, so the microphone-bearing balloons were launched to listen for the sounds.

The experiment succeeded in detecting U.S. nuclear tests in the South Pacific, 6,000 miles away

I'm not sure which mogul flight detected that, but it makes sense they would verify if Mogul worked detecting US nuclear tests before trying to detect Soviet tests. So the southwestern desert may be a suitable location to test for an explosion in the Pacific, to prove the concept.

Besides, the soviets weren't even testing nukes in 1947:

The Soviet Union tested its first nuclear weapon at 7:00 a.m. local time on August 29, 1949....

The Americans knew too, within days. The Soviets had kept the test under tight security, but the U.S. Air Force’s airborne observers showed conclusively that a nuclear explosion had taken place. The technique they used had been developed just in time; even two years earlier it would have been beyond the state of the art.

I don't know if that claim is true but if so, perhaps Mogul wouldn't have been capable of detecting that first soviet test? Or maybe it wouldn't have been as conclusive?

All I'm getting from that (I might be reading it wrong) is that the mogul balloon in the end wasn't even used to detect the Russians first test if that's so what was used and when did they finish with the mogul project to develop something newer or was it an upgraded version of the mogul?

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by Anunaki10
That's right, to keep an open mind is a good thing

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That thread is not by an open-minded person. That thread is the result of conspiracy, insufficient research, a failure to grasp what was going on in 1947 politics- and military-wise, gullibility, fantasy-proneness, and the will to believe because belief requires no evidence.

And from that thread:

The weather conditions on July 2, 1947 was too cloudy for any weather/Mogul balloon to be sent up to the sky, the same day the UFO was reported crashed (or two UFOs were reported crashed), and the wind direction didn't point to the direction of Foster Ranch, so there is no way for any weather/Mogul balloon to land at Foster Ranch. Another thing, balloons don't make crash sites.

www.roswellproof.com...

"Skeptics claim that because Project Mogul was also in New Mexico, that increases the probability that it accounts for the debris field at the Foster Ranch. But actual Mogul records show that prevailing winds almost always took the balloons well away from the debris field area. Graphical plots of over 50 recorded flights and their crash sites demonstrate that only one flight possibly crashed within 40 miles of the ranch (Flight #38, Nov. 4, 1947) and maybe 2 more (Flight #10, July 5 & Flight #17, Sept. 10 ,1947) flew in the general direction and came within ~20 miles (but flew on to crash in other states). This demonstrates that it was actually quite improbable that any Mogul would have ended up at the Foster Ranch crash site."

Location of the UFO crash sites, link here www.alienresistance.org...

Why use transport airplanes like the C-54 and the B-29 to transport weather/mogul balloons out of New Mexico? It doesn't make sense. It would be too expensive, and would be more logic to keep these balloons in that area. I think they used these transport airplanes for something else... That's right, according to the reports, they used these airplanes to transport the UFO wreckage and it's dead occupants.
"Skeptic" or "Debunker" Tim Printy (who funny enough also support the Mogul Balloon Train) claimed that the Runway at Kirtland Air Force Base was too short for the C-54 and B-29 to operate out from there, but Tim Printy was wrong, as history indeed show that that runway was in fact long enough (more than just long enough) for these transport airplanes to operate out from there.

'Backinblack' have a point. Why use a location like New Mexico, when it seems more logic to use Alaska which is geographically far closer to the Soviet Union? Why do you think the military decided to use Thule to put the Radar there? That's because Thule geographically is a more perfect place to keep an eye on the Soviet Union and China.
Guess what detected the first Soviet nuclear bomb in 1949. It was a WB-29 attached with a filter that was used to trap airborne debris. Link here www.americanheritage.com... , and as you can see, they used Eielson Air Force Base, in Fairbanks, Alaska as their base to operate from there. They used a WB-29 to detect the Soviet nuclear bomb, and not Project Mogul Balloon flight.
So i think we can throw that Project Mogul Balloon in the trash bin where it belong.

And not only that some of the MJ-12 members decided to turn their back on the "Shadow Government", even General Ramey who was ordered by the highest level to make the weather balloon cover up story, he later decided to turn his back on the "Shadow Government" too, www.roswellinvestigator.com... by saying that the weather balloon cover up story was the biggest lie he ever had to tell. About the UFO debris, General Ramey added >>It was out of this world, Son. Out of this world!

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by spacevisitor

 

#1=sticks
#2=foil
#4=tape

Still looks like balloon debris to me, maybe with some embellishments.

Kinda like my hands get a little bit wider each time I retell the story about that big fish I caught

Sorry, I obviously missed this one.

It is in fact a 60 pages document filled with information where under quite some civilian and military witness testimonies, and you could only come up with these three points which you even did give a twist.
Why did you not post the original points as stated in that document including the what you call embellishments, or is that because you know already in the back of your mind that the Mogul balloon story is nothing more then baked air?

1. Wood-like/plastic-like sticks or I-beams with "hieroglyphic" writing.
2. Tough, flexible, foil-like material, usually with "memory" properties.
4. Tape-like material with "hieroglyphic" writing or "flower patterns"

And then you even boast about it calling that a big fish?

That is what we in Holland call nothing more than “fishing stories”.

We will never know. Personally I think we all fell into the disinfo trap. There is nothing left to do but argue and call each other names. That is the name of the game and we have all been played. The question's, what are the chances that an alien race came from who knows how many light years away to arive at earth just to be shot down with an antiquated howitzer, or is it some kind of Tesla engineering idea that the general's put into operation too early, or what is the chances of an actual weather ballon crashing on someone's property(how many times has this happened over the years)? We will never know because the info was disinfo and the disinfo turned into more disinfo. I think that people need to spend their time researching recent events and stop wasting time on the Roswell disinfo charades. Have fun wasting your life away by researching a topic that has been washed multiple times by the msm.
Just my .02.

reply to post by muzzleflash

And the last line of wishful thinking and hopeful desperation, is to say flying saucers are human technology 100%.

NOPE, don't think so.

I did not see a saucer shape, however, I, a chemist, a NY state geologist, a lawyer and an engineer were siting on a porch in the hills southeast of Albany New York. We were idly watching a very bright light in the night sky while hoping to see some of the meteor shower due that night. Three fighter jets were scrambled out of Rome Air Force base to chase that light. The light played tag with the three fighter jets for about ten to fifteen minutes. It was quite a display, like watching a champion roping horse play tag with a one year old toddler. The darn thing turned SQUARE corners, let the jets get close and then took off at an incredible speed compared to the jets, slowed abruptly and buzzed the jets again. Finally it took off at such a great rate of speed it vanished in a blink of an eye with the jets valiantly chasing it. This was in 1977 or 78.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
That is what we in Holland call nothing more than “fishing stories”.

I'm glad you got my point. If you ask someone about something right after it happens, that's your best chance of getting closest to the truth.

Just about anybody, recalling details from 30 years earlier, is going to misremember some details, and may embellish the story such that maybe the fish they caught wasn't really as big as they claim 30 years later, or maybe the foil wasn't really as magical as their faded memory thinks.

Now if someone has a photo of the fish they caught, that's better than a faded memory and it makes it hard to make the fish any bigger when they retell the story. Likewise, if Marcel had kept a little piece of the magical debris (and considering how many pieces he says there were and how large the debris field was, I'm sure nobody would have ever missed it) then he'd be able prove he's not telling a "fish story" about the magical properties. But I have to say, the magical properties sound like a fish story to me. It was foil, and he said it was foil. But instead of making the fish a little bit bigger than it really was, he just gave the foil some magical properties. At least it seems that way to me mostly because of the inconsistency of finding such a supposedly indestructible material in thousands of pieces. I don't think anybody can be sure since he didn't bother to save a piece to verify his claim. But it is an extraordinary claim, and certainly lacking in extraordinary evidence. He had the stuff in his hands, all he had to do was save a piece, nobody would have missed it.

Hi 'Shrike'. Stars and flags to his thread. Great thread

You could possibly not know that they used WB-29 from the base at Alaska to detect the Soviet nuclear bomb. I didn't know about that WB-29 untill few years ago were i saw someone from another forum who brought it up. I forgot that WB-29, but thanks to 'Backinblack', it helped me to refresh my memory of that WB-29.

I want to add something about General Ramey's memo:

www.ufocasebook.com...

"The message turns out to be a telegram from Gen. Ramey to the Pentagon and Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg, the acting AAF Chief of Staff at the time. Ramey is providing Vandenberg an update on the very fluid situation in-the-field at Roswell.
The first paragraph describes what had been found. Ramey starts by acknowledging "THAT A 'DISK' IS NEXT NEW FIND." He then adds that "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK" and something else (possibly just "A WRECK") had also been found near the recovery "OPERATION AT THE 'RANCH'." At the end it states that "YOU" (i.e. Gen. Vandenberg) had ordered the "victims" and/or the wreckage "FORWARDED" to "FORT WORTH, TEX."

In the second paragraph, Ramey describes how the situation was being handled. Ramey first states that something "IN THE 'DISC'", probably the bodies of the "forwarded" "victims" (and possibly termed "AVIATORS") would be flown by a B-29 Special Transport or C-47 to the "A1" (personnel director) of some "8TH ARMY****" division, most likely the head flight surgeon at Fort Worth given the context. Wright Field, Ohio, home of the AAF's aeronautical labs, was to assess the Roswell crash object (possibly referred to as an "AIRFOIL").

Finally Ramey outlines how the situation was being treated publicly and how they were going to cover it up. First he assures Vandenberg that the earlier highly inflammatory Roswell base press release (referred to as the "MISSTATE MEANING OF STORY") was the work of an Army counter-intelligence team ("CIC/TEAM"), but that the "NEXT SENT OUT PR" (Press Release) would be "OF WEATHER BALLOONS."

Ramey finishes with the statement that the weather balloon story might be better accepted if they also added weather balloon radar target demonstrations. This apparently was the impetus for the national debunking campaign using the devices that followed over the next few days.

There is no question that Ramey's message, even when greatly enlarged and then enhanced by computer, is a very difficult read because of fuzziness, film grain noise, uneven development, photo defects, paper folds and tilt, shadows, and text obscured at the left margin by Gen. Ramey's thumb.
This will inevitably prompt comments from die-hard skeptics that a full "take" on the Ramey message is strictly one's own interpretation. However, there are various keywords and phrases that can be readily seen by anyone, even in lower resolution scans of the message first analyzed in 1999 by a number of people. These keywords and phrases unambiguously prove that there is no truth whatsoever to the various Air Force "explanations," be they the original 1947 "weather balloon" story, or the Air Forces updated "Mogul balloon" and "crash dummies."

Far and away the most important word of the entire message is "VICTIMS" on the third line (part of phrase "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK"). If there were "VICTIMS", then this was no Mogul balloon crash. As the Air Force Roswell report itself noted (using splendid circular reasoning) reports of bodies being recovered couldn't be true because the crash was of a Mogul balloon, which had "no 'alien' passengers therein."

Of course Ramey's mention of "VICTIMS" in 1947 also disproves the already preposterous "crash dummies" theory. The only way these 1950's crash dummies could be "victims" is if they also time-warped back to 1947.

Another easily seen keyword and phrase is "DISC" and "IN THE 'DISC" on the fifth line. Ramey is clearly describing the crash object as a "DISC", not as a "weather balloon", or a "Mogul" or a "radar target" or a "RAWIN" (jargon term for a radar wind target), or any other word or phase that in any way suggests some sort of balloon or balloon paraphenalia. In fact, the only mention of "weather balloons" and "RAWIN" targets comes at the very end of the message in the context of issued public statements and damage-control.

(The word "DISK" is also used on the first line in reference to what had been found, but this instance of the word is not so easily seen.)

Furthermore, the message refers to the subsequent shipment of something "IN the disc." Neither balloons nor the two-dimensional, flimsy radar kites had anything "inside" that could be shipped. If Ramey had been referring to some piece of balloon payload equipment, then the phrase should have begun with "attached to" or "suspended from", or "with", etc. In speaking of "THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK",, using the word "DISC" for the crash object, and shipping something "IN THE DISC", Ramey is clearly referring to something other than a balloon crash. The simplest interpretation is to take the words literally. There is no reason for Gen. Ramey to be describing events abstractly in a secret communication to his superiors. This was the actually crash of a so-called "flying disk" craft with a dead crew found on the inside, as corroborated by the testimony of military and civilian witnesses."



Fascinating how effective the Government's weather/Mogul balloon deception have tricked people's mind for all these years!

reply to post by Anunaki10
That would be a good post for the other thread on the Ramey memo:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm not sure if that much is clearly legible (the word "VICTIMS" is not clear) but some of what you said I think is true and somewhat legible. The word "VICTIMS" would be important because that would seem to involve something that Marcel never described. Most of the rest of the memo I think could be consistent with what Marcel described and the Mogul story, if it was Mogul they found.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spacevisitor
That is what we in Holland call nothing more than “fishing stories”.

I'm glad you got my point. If you ask someone about something right after it happens, that's your best chance of getting closest to the truth.

Just about anybody, recalling details from 30 years earlier, is going to misremember some details, and may embellish the story such that maybe the fish they caught wasn't really as big as they claim 30 years later, or maybe the foil wasn't really as magical as their faded memory thinks. Now if someone has a photo of the fish they caught, that's better than a faded memory and it makes it hard to make the fish any bigger when they retell the story.

And here we have another classic example of a Roswell debunker applying a double standard. It is Arbitrageur himself who bases his entire case for a real Mogul Flight 4 on 40+-year old memories, more like confabulations, of the late Mogul engineer Charles Moore. That he finds more convincing and better evidence than the actual Mogul records recorded back at the time that prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there was no Mogul Flight 2, 3, or 4. Not only are these missing totally from the flight records, there is also explicitly stated reasons why they were cancelled, and therefore never existed. For Flight 2, high winds and equipment failure. All equipment was removed and the non-resuable weather balloons cut loose. For Flight 3, high winds again. Stated explicitly that equipment never went up. For Flight 4, excessive cloud cover. Illegal to launch under CAA imposed rules.

Both Charles Moore and the USAF counterintelligence agents who wrote the 1994 Roswell report lied about this, claiming all three flights existed, and that the nonexistent Flight 4 explained Roswell. But because the skeptics must believe in a real Flight 4, they ignore the real documented evidence and instead believe 40 year-old memories and professional liars, AKA counterintelligence agents.

Likewise, if Marcel had kept a little piece of the magical debris (and considering how many pieces he says there were and how large the debris field was, I'm sure nobody would have ever missed it) then he'd be able prove he's not telling a "fish story" about the magical properties.

But Arbitrageur believes Charles Moore's ancient "fish story" of a real Flight 4, and disbelieves actual historical documentation that says it never happened.

But I have to say, the magical properties sound like a fish story to me. It was foil, and he said it was foil.

And here we have a classic example of a Roswell debunker quoting completely out of context. Marcel said it resembled aluminum foil in appearance, but ALSO said it couldn't be cut, torn, burned, and had memory properties, in that it wouldn't hold a crease or dent, and could be crushed but would return to its original shape. He called it metallic but with plastic properties. He also described what he called a metallic cloth with memory properties that he could blow right through. Only a debunker would think he was describing ordinary aluminum foil.

In addition, the alleged Mogul balloon radar reflector used flimsy foil-paper that a baby could tear. And, of course, the paper would burn if Marcel had applied his cigarette lighter to it. This is the same material used back then and now to wrap chewing gum and candy bars. It was also used for radar chaff by the military. Marcel was also a certified radar intelligence officer and certainly would have been familiar with all of this. But he only described an extraordinarily tough metallic foil of some kind, NEVER described foil-paper. And he wasn't alone. For example, the rancher's son, Bill Brazel, also later found a few small pieces of the foil, and completely independently of Marcel (who he never met), described it's uncuttability/untearability and its memory properties. He compared it more to lead foil in appearance. Again nothing about flimsy foil-paper.

But instead of making the fish a little bit bigger than it really was, he just gave the foil some magical properties.

And somehow other witnesses like Bill Brazel supposedly exaggerated the foil properties in exactly the same way, which is quite remarkable when they didn't have any contact with one another.

Debunkers also believe in the "magical properties" of Mogul balloons that can be brought back into existence decades later just to make their own fish story a little bit bigger.

At least it seems that way to me mostly because of the inconsistency of finding such a supposedly indestructible material in thousands of pieces. I don't think anybody can be sure since he didn't bother to save a piece to verify his claim. But it is an extraordinary claim, and certainly lacking in extraordinary evidence. He had the stuff in his hands, all he had to do was save a piece, nobody would have missed it.

It's also an extraordinary claim that documented nonexistent Mogul flights existed merely on one person's say-so. Again I ask Arbitrageur to supply the actual documentation that such a flight existed instead of making up ridiculous excuses why it doesn't exist.

reply to post by debrisfield
Actually I'm not sure it was Mogul, so no, I'm not relying that much on Charles Moore. Even he may have done some embellishment of decades old memories like everyone else.

But it sounds like balloon debris to me, from ALL the witness descriptions of embellished versions of foil, sticks, tape, etc. That's all I'm saying.

well of course they'regoing to lie about it, just as multiple sources say they are :/
truth is we'll probably know the truth

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Seen this thread, interesting and good research work..

Many UFO's around that time it seems...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by backinblack
Thanks for the link, I saw that thread. I really like it, see how many of those sightings just prior to Roswell refer to disks? And people wonder how they came up with the word "disc" to describe what Marcel described. Marcel's description of the debris field sounds nothing like a disc to me, but it's easier for me to understand how the Roswell folks might have come up with that word, when I read that thread about all the prior disk sightings.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by backinblack

 

Thanks for the link, I saw that thread. I really like it, see how many of those sightings just prior to Roswell refer to disks? And people wonder how they came up with the word "disc" to describe what Marcel described. Marcel's description of the debris field sounds nothing like a disc to me, but it's easier for me to understand how the Roswell folks might have come up with that word, when I read that thread about all the prior disk sightings.

Well it gives cause for a cover up of Roswell, especially if they did get live or dead aliens..
Also shows there were many sightings around that time..

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
If you ask someone about something right after it happens, that's your best chance of getting closest to the truth.

I agree, therefore I give the testimonies of Jesse Marcel Sr, and his son and so many others who were at the scene themselves and who had the debris in their own hands far more weight than those others who weren’t even there and did not have the debris in their own hands but nevertheless seems to know all about it.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Likewise, if Marcel had kept a little piece of the magical debris (and considering how many pieces he says there were and how large the debris field was, I'm sure nobody would have ever missed it)

It seems that he actually had some debris in his possession for some time, as there is spoken of here.

A third point which doesn't make much sense, if the Air Force theory is correct, is that Jesse Marcel and his family kept some of the debris after the incident and even showed it to the Cavitts.
Mary Cavitt, Sheridan Cavitt's wife, sat in on the Air Force interview, just as she had done during Randle and Schmitt's interviews.
At two points,she stated that Jesse brought out material when the Cavitts were visiting.

www.v-j-enterprises.com...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
then he'd be able prove he's not telling a "fish story" about the magical properties.

Marcel was not the only one who spoke about those properties as you could have seen in that debris file doc. I posted.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
It seems that he actually had some debris in his possession for some time, as there is spoken of here.

Thanks, I didn't know that!
So what happened to it?

That would be, as the title of the thread suggests, "The smoking gun".

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spacevisitor
It seems that he actually had some debris in his possession for some time, as there is spoken of here.

Thanks, I didn't know that!
So what happened to it?

That would be, as the title of the thread suggests, "The smoking gun".

I don’t know what happened to it, perhaps his son knows that, but I did not find anything so far about him saying something about it as you can see for instance here.

www.ufologie.net...

I suspect that because of the obvious extreme importance of that debris, and especially because it would be indeed "The smoking gun" the military has most likely persuaded or commanding him “nicely” to give it all back to them.

If it was nothing more than Mogul debris, he most likely would have been allowed to keep the whole load.

Here you can see what usually happens with people who want to bring out such "smoking gun" Roswell material in the public domain.

In the video, you see amongst others DR. Roger Leir, Lt. Col. Jesse Marcel SR deceased, and his son Col. Jesse Marcel JR retired who says very interesting things about that piece of debris, further you see also Dr. Russell Vernon Clark from the University of California at San Diego.

In 2001 DR. Roger Leir, other UFO investigators and those involved in the specimen testing planned a press conference to discuss their findings, but take notice of what has happened with that press conference, it starts at 6:05, but I recommend seeing it all.

It is in fact very shocking to hear what has happened with the people involved and all the information.
Roswell Debris Analyzed and Tested!

reply to post by spacevisitor
As much as I like Amanda Tapping, she's just reading a script and that show isn't very credible. (It didn't last too long for some reason).

As far as I can tell, these are pro-UFO guys saying indirectly saying Leir is a liar and the piece of silicon is very terrestrial.
www.ufodigest.com...

Noted UFOlogist and "Alien Hunter," Derrel Sims, speaks with Dr. Russell Vernon Clark for the latest information regarding the RR3 object...

"Numerous bogus claims have been made "long after it was scientifically proven" that the piece was very terrestrial! Why these claims continue should be obvious to your readers. The science is in…I just checked (again!) with numerous scientists on this "find"."

"The RR3 Specimen" is not a part or piece of a UFO. I now wish I had never seen the object or been a party to this seemingly endless attempt to make this object into something it is not.

Yeah I'll bet he regrets it:

www.ufodigest.com...

Dr. Vernon Clark was so impressed with the find of extraterrestrial isotopic ratios from the object that he went to Roswell and together we presented a full lecture on the RR3 piece at the New Mexico Military Institute....

Unfortunately, the evidence did not stand up to peer review. He was later notified that his job position was no longer needed at UCSD. Technically he wasn't fired…they just gave "the hint" that his position was closed down. This really smacks of "punishment".

The question that later came up with peer review was:

"Can isotopic ratios be altered in manufactured materials?"

Apparently, the answer is "Yes." Even the skeptics agree to that.

In other words, the object could have been manufactured here on earth and the isotopic ratios could be altered.

Do you think that might be the reason the conference was canceled? Because he first thought the isotopic ratio was evidence that it was not terrestrial, but it turned out to not be the case after getting peer review feedback?

www.ufodigest.com...

It is important to remember here that Dr. Vernon Clark reversed his position after reviewing the additional input of information from his peers and the results of additional testing. To this day, he has retained that reversed position.

I think that may have something to do with cancellation of the conference for the extraterrestrial announcement?

Actually another scientist said the isotopic ratios weren't even unusual:

www.ufodigest.com...

these analyses indicate that the major constituents of T1/T2, T3 and RR3 have isotopic ratios that are at this level of analysis indistinguishable from normal terrestrial...

Some pretty amazing scientists have analyzed the material and many more have given input after studying the results of the testing. The fact is that tests by Stanford Scientists, Lab tech reviews in Dallas and NASA (through independent testing) and York University in Toronto agree…the final tests are indicating there are no ET isotopes in "The RR3 Specimen."

So armed with that revelation, I have to conclude that the youtube clip you posted is one of the most misleading pieces of deception I've seen, though unfortunately that's not too uncommon in the UFO field.

And Leir looked very much alive to me, people die for all kinds of reasons.

Also the chain of custody linking this to Roswell is suspect at best. And I never heard either Marcel, or his son discuss having debris in their interviews, except for when they spread it out on the floor in 1947.

So in summary:
-I doubt that artifact was from the Roswell crash, but, even if it was...
-Tests show it was terrestrial, after the initial (false) finding was corrected by additional testing.

The deception in that video is shameful.