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Actual Roswell Newspaper Text - The "Smoking Gun" - NO UFO!

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posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 02:07 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike
Yet you can't stay away 'cause you know that with my threadss you are going to learn something. How about you stop wasting your time, and ours, by not bothering to visit my threads or commenting on my comments? How cool would that be if you were to do something logical, for a change?



lolol....an aside to the discussion, but Shrike you are seeming very Gollumlike with the double s thang!! (threadss)


Roswell is always always always gonna create dissention. And thats cool but please try to stay civil with YOUR replies. Many of us could ask you to stay out of our threads and quit wasting time too yannow.
Chill. And enjoy the New Year and all the revelations it will hopefully provide.




posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 03:51 PM
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Due this thread of The Shrike and the earlier posted thread of Monts, “The Ramey Memo: Best Roswell Evidence Ever Found” and looking for some information about this case, I stumbled on this one from Gazrok.

And because I think that the information provided in all these consecutive threads is very interesting and absolutely worth reading and fits in this discussion I did post it here.
I cannot see other than that Gazrok did in fact a very good job here and really did his homework.

It’s too bad that the post in Part IV, Section A is completely removed for some necessary reasons because I would gladly have read that to.

I fully agree with what Gazrok said at the end.


Originally posted by Gazrok
It is of course, for the reader to decide. I’ve given you the best facts I’ve seen…the ones that convinced me that this case is the real deal…the ones that convinced me that yes, we’ve been visited by beings not from around here, and that yes, the government knows far more than it’s telling


The thread is named “The Case for Roswell”.

Part I can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part II can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part III, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part III, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part III, Section C can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...


Part III, Section D can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part III, Section E can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part IV, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Part IV, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...



edit on 1/1/11 by spacevisitor because: Made a correction



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by annella

Originally posted by The Shrike
Yet you can't stay away 'cause you know that with my threadss you are going to learn something. How about you stop wasting your time, and ours, by not bothering to visit my threads or commenting on my comments? How cool would that be if you were to do something logical, for a change?



lolol....an aside to the discussion, but Shrike you are seeming very Gollumlike with the double s thang!! (threadss)


Roswell is always always always gonna create dissention. And thats cool but please try to stay civil with YOUR replies. Many of us could ask you to stay out of our threads and quit wasting time too yannow.
Chill. And enjoy the New Year and all the revelations it will hopefully provide.


Yeah, but admit it, Annella, your thread did suck and I called it as such. Don't support, I don't give a rat's ... And speak for yourself only, don't say "Many of us" because it works both ways as "Many of us" also support my views. I enjoy replies by Arbitrageur, Phage, Jim Oberg, some of Zorgon, and then you have some individuals that if I don't reply to their nonsense they get defensive, demand, etc. I mostly ignore them. But then you have Debrisfield with his l-o-o-o-n-g run at the mouth and I don't get on his case and he uses up a lot of bandwidth expressing his views. So, Annella, you and everyone who doesn't like me or what I say, "chill"! There are a lot of other threads that would be happy to hear from you all. Perhaps you confuse me for someone who gives a ...! I don't, do you? I don't! Shades of Dom Irrera!

edit on 1-1-2011 by The Shrike because: Additional comments.

edit on 1-1-2011 by The Shrike because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by TheFlash
If you really believe that it was just a 'weather balloon' that was recovered in Roswell in 1947 then you should review the information at the Web site below and answer the questions toward the bottom of the page for us. I would sure like answers to those questions.

Roswell Link


I don't particularly feel like answering every question that is created when every answer can be found with dilligent research. However, I will offer the following from the site that you included the link to and it speaks volumes:
"As you can well imagine, it has not been an easy task to reconstruct what actually occurred in July of 1947. Many of the men (and the few women) involved are now dead, and those living are quite elderly. Human memory does not record events with complete accuracy, especially after years have elapsed."


Conversely, to apply your reasoning/tactics - I don't feel like arguing with your attempted debunking when every point you try to make can be refuted by diligent research. I also find it very amusing how you chose to focus in on that one statement from the Web page.



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by TheFlash

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by TheFlash
If you really believe that it was just a 'weather balloon' that was recovered in Roswell in 1947 then you should review the information at the Web site below and answer the questions toward the bottom of the page for us. I would sure like answers to those questions.

Roswell Link


I don't particularly feel like answering every question that is created when every answer can be found with dilligent research. However, I will offer the following from the site that you included the link to and it speaks volumes:
"As you can well imagine, it has not been an easy task to reconstruct what actually occurred in July of 1947. Many of the men (and the few women) involved are now dead, and those living are quite elderly. Human memory does not record events with complete accuracy, especially after years have elapsed."


Conversely, to apply your reasoning/tactics - I don't feel like arguing with your attempted debunking when every point you try to make can be refuted by diligent research. I also find it very amusing how you chose to focus in on that one statement from the Web page.


It's very easy to stop my "debunking" (don't hold your breath): YOU provide evidence that a UFO crashed near Roswell. Why is such an easy request an impossible task? You'd think that with all of the pro-UFO crash supporters out there and in here, just one would be able to produce irrefutable evidence. I'll tell you why no one has been able to produce an iota of irrefutable evidence - it doesn't exist! Superb researchers such as Todd, Pflock, Korff ( yes, I know!), and others have produced more convicing results against a UFO crash but the power of the believers overwhelm common sense, logic, and reason. Critical thinking suffered a major blow in 1947!



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Alien Abduct
Here is a few questions that comes from a good little read of a website that The Flash pointed out to us.


- After personally examining samples of the material, why did Brazel’s neighbors encourage him to report the crash for the $3,000 reward reported by the press for physical evidence of a flying disc and not for the standard $5 balloon reward?”


Those questions really aren't that hard to answer if you do a little research and logical thinking.


Neither of which Arbitrageur supplies.


Since 1994, pretty much everyone agrees there was more material than a standard weather balloon, so it wasn't a standard weather balloon, though that was the cover story the USAF gave from 1947-1993 and it's why we all knew there was a conspiracy to cover up what was really found, until 1994.


Maybe Arbitrageur should read the 1994 USAF Roswell report, which contradicts this statement. E.g., Weaver "Executive Summary", p. 14:


"From the rather benign description of the 'event' and the recovery of some materials as described in the original newspaper accounts, the 'Roswell Incident' has since grown to mythical (if not mystical) proportions in the eyes and minds of some researchers... There are now several major variations of the 'Roswell story.' For example, it was originally reported that there was only recovery of debris from one site. This has since grown from a minimal amount of debris recovered from a small area to airplane loads of debris from multiple huge 'debris fields.'"


Weaver p. 27:


"Lt. Col. Cavitt described a small area of debris... 'I remember recognizing this material as being consistent with a weather balloon.'"


What? No multiple weather balloons spread over a large area?

Now Cavitt's description of the alleged total size of the debris field and what he thought they found [affidavit]:


"The area of this debris was very small, about 20 feet square. ...I remember recognizing this material as being consistent with a weather balloon...There certainly wasn't a lot of this material... it was subsequently identified as a weather balloon, which is what I thought it was all along."


I still don't see multiple balloons spread over a large area being described here. Cavitt always referred to it as A [singular] weather balloon, exactly the story Gen. Ramey was putting out.

And "20 feet square" for the crash area? (In his interview, Cavitt compared the alleged debris field size to that of his living room) Is that the size a 600 foot Mogul balloon train compacts down into when it crashes?

What I see is Cavitt indeed sticking to the single weather balloon story of 1947, describing nothing like what would be consistent with a real Mogul balloon crash.

Finally, the story of Lt. McAndrew in his summary:


"Lt. Col. Cavitt also reviewed the famous Ramey/Marcel photographs of the wreckage taken to Fort Worth (often claimed by UFO researchers to have been switched and the remnants of a balloon substituted for it), and he identified the materials depicted in the photos as consistent with the materials that he recovered from the ranch. ...[Ramey's weather officer] Newton related that '...I told them that was A balloon and A RAWIN target'."


This was also what Newton was quoted as saying in 1947: A (one) balloon and A (one) radar target. And that is also exactly what the photos show.

Recap: The Air Force counterintelligence debunkers in 1994 took the position that:
1. The debris field was TINY (Cavitt's 20 feet square). Stories of large debris fields and multiple debris fields were all exaggerations.
2. What was in Ramey's office was not substituted debris but what was recovered. All that was depicted and identified was a single balloon and radar target.

Yet elsewhere they claim it WAS a Mogul balloon crash spread over a large area. But when it comes to quoting their own witnesses, suddenly it becomes a single balloon confined to a very tiny area (20 feet square), and no debris substitutions once it gets to Fort Worth, where it is again a single balloon and target. Yet somehow, this is supposed to be compatible with a very large, multi-balloon/target Mogul. See, e.g., how McAndrew continues to talk out of both sides of his mouth:


"Descriptions of the debris provided by Brazel, Cavitt, Crary's diary, and the photos of the material displayed in General Ramey's office. These material were consistent with the components of a MOGUL service flight, with neoprene balloons, parchment parachutes, plastic balloons tubes, corner reflectors, a sonobuoy, and a black electronics box that housed the pressure cutoff switch."


Well NONE of this is "consistent" with what was shown in the photos, such as multiple balloonS, corner reflectorS, much less the other named balloon equipment. Except for a "black box", Cavitt didn't describe anything like this, Brazel didn't describe it, and Newton didn't describe it. The story was always no other equipment found and a tiny amount of debris consistent with a single weather balloon/radar target.

And finally Crary's diary actually says the "service flight" the Air Force claims explained the debris was never flown because of cloudy weather, canceled, just like the attempted flight the day before. Instead a small test flight was sent up with a small "cluster of balloons" (not a long "balloon train") carrying a sonobuoy, but no other equipment mentioned that McAndrew claims was found and described.

What we have here is a lot of flagrant lying and propaganda spin from the likes of Weaver and McAndrew, both well-trained counterintelligence agents, whose job it was to cover up things.

This is the wonderful thing about debunking. Consistency is not required. A canceled Mogul flight that never left the ground according to the one and only document that even mentions it (Crary's diary) and also left not a trace in Mogul records, suddenly becomes the explanation for Roswell.

And the evidence the Air Force cites as being consistent with such a balloon, such as statements of Brazel, Cavitt, and Newton, plus the photos, actually are totally inconsistent with it. Debris that doesn't exist at all in the statements of these people or in the photos becomes found and must be from the nonexistent Mogul balloon flight, just because these counterintelligence agents say so. The quantities of debris also supposedly match up, even though they obviously don't. All you have to say is that everything is consistent with everything else, even though it isn't, and debunkers like Arbitrageur or Shrike will continue to uncritically ape the arguments, while claiming to be critical thinkers.



So you've got something that crashed and it's not a weather balloon, so why would you seek a weather balloon reward for $5 when you might be able to get a $3000 reward for what was obviously some kind of larger flying object that fell from the sky? Um, because $3000 is more than $5 and you know it's not a weather balloon?

I'm sorry but that really has to be one of the dumbest questions I've ever seen in my life.


Hardly. It is far dumber to cite a nonexistent balloon flight as explaining Roswell, and then claiming the nonexistent debris from this nonexistent flight matches up in all ways with your own cited witness descriptions and the surviving photos, even though there is obviously no match at all.



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 11:44 PM
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reply to post by debrisfield
 


You are ignoring the testimony of the main character in this drama: "Mac" Brazel. The newspaper article says (edited by me for brevity and underlining critical comments):

July 9, 1947
Harassed Rancher Who Located 'Saucer' Sorry He Told About It
(snip)
Brazel related that on June 14 he and an 8-year old son, Vernon, were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J. B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.
(snip)
At the time Brazel was in a hurry to get his round made and he did not pay much attention to it. But he did remark about what he had seen and on July 4 he, his wife, Vernon and a daughter, Betty, age 14, went back to the spot and gathered up quite a bit of the debris.
(snip)
Brazel said that he did not see it fall from the sky and did not see it before it was torn up, so he did not know the size or shape it might have been, but he thought it might have been about as large as a table top. The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter.
(snip)
Brazel said that he had previously found two weather observation balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

"I am sure that what I found was not any weather observation balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything about it."
edit on 1-1-2011 by The Shrike because: correct quoting

edit on 1-1-2011 by The Shrike because: Additional comments.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 12:35 AM
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yes its true they found weather balloons, and crash dummies, and missile debris. but the cool part was when they found Aliens and their space craft and made the mistake of letting all the witnesses live to tell the truth


The crash at Roswell is true and real and there is more evidence to prove it happened just as the witnesses told it than the government attempting to cover it up.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike
"Obviously, Marcel had a tendency to embellish his personal history. In addition, according to his efficiency report (performance review) for the period July 1, 1947 to April 30, 1948 - during which time the Roswell affair unfolded - his "only known weakness" was noted as "an inclination to magnify problems he is confronted with."


I cannot say for shore of course that he did not have had a tendency to embellish his personal history [I go try to find that out] but if so, I really wonder why he would have done that.
So far, I sorely do not rule out the possibility that the NSA or NRO or CIA or DIA, had some hand in that all.


Originally posted by The Shrike
Nothing earth-shattering but it goes towards accepting anything he said as possibly so and possibly not so. I just touched the surface, there's lots more.


Does that not count also for what the military said about it all, because how come that you believe so strongly that it was indeed nothing more than a mogul balloon while you know that it is quite clear now that the military was lying to their teeth back then as they did also later on?

Because first it was claimed by them that it was nothing more than a simple weather balloon which even every city dog would have recognized as being one because they came down all the time.

Then because I think that when they did realize that they could not continue that weather balloon explanation anymore they did change their story and come with that Mogul balloon explanation, which I cannot imagine in any way that the witnesses back then would have confused with a so called flying disk.

Then, in order to try to debunk the reports of recovered alien bodies, they come with that it was “likely” a combination of innocently transformed memories of military accidents involving injured or killed personnel, innocently transformed memories of the recovery of anthropomorphic dummies in military programs like Project High Dive.

Do you really trust the military that much?


A subsequent press conference was called, featuring debris from the crashed object which seemed to confirm the weather balloon description.

This case was quickly forgotten and almost completely ignored, even by UFO researchers, for more than 30 years. Then, in 1978, physicist and ufologist Stanton T. Friedman interviewed Major Jesse Marcel who was involved with the original recovery of the debris in 1947. Marcel expressed his belief that the military had covered up the recovery of an alien spacecraft. His story spread through UFO circles, being featured in some UFO documentaries at the time.[2] In February 1980, The National Enquirer ran its own interview with Marcel, garnering national and worldwide attention for the Roswell incident.[2]
Additional witnesses added significant new details, including claims of a huge military operation dedicated to recovering alien craft and aliens themselves, at as many as 11 crash sites,[2] and alleged witness intimidation. In 1989, former mortician Glenn Dennis put forth a detailed personal account, wherein he claimed that alien autopsies were carried out at the Roswell base.[5]

In response to these reports, and after congressional inquiries, the General Accounting Office launched an inquiry and directed the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force to conduct an internal investigation. The result was summarized in two reports. The first, released in 1995, concluded that the reported recovered material in 1947 was likely debris from a secret government program called Project Mogul, which involved high altitude balloons meant to detect sound waves generated by Soviet atomic bomb tests and ballistic missiles.[6] The second report, released in 1997, concluded that reports of recovered alien bodies were likely a combination of innocently transformed memories of military accidents involving injured or killed personnel, innocently transformed memories of the recovery of anthropomorphic dummies in military programs like Project High Dive conducted in the 1950s,


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 08:31 AM
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Isnt there a shipment log that is still classified to this day?



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by spacevisitor
(snip)
Does that not count also for what the military said about it all, because how come that you believe so strongly that it was indeed nothing more than a mogul balloon while you know that it is quite clear now that the military was lying to their teeth back then as they did also later on?
(snip)


I don't want to sound unkind because you ask questions to which you want answers. But I've answered similar questions over and over since the 1980s.

However, I copied and pasted one of your questions above which I will answer. I do not "believe" so strongly that it was more than a Mogul balloon. First, I do not "believe", I say that of all of the explanations, the Mogul balloon train has more credibility than any other explanation. But, primarily, I do not accept that a UFO crashed, not near Roswell nor anywhere else on the planet. Claims come and claims go and so far no one has provided any irrefutable evidence of a UFO crashing anywhere. So, Roswell balloon train, yes. Roswell UFO crash, no.



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by debrisfield
Recap: The Air Force counterintelligence debunkers in 1994 took the position that:
1. The debris field was TINY (Cavitt's 20 feet square). Stories of large debris fields and multiple debris fields were all exaggerations.
2. What was in Ramey's office was not substituted debris but what was recovered. All that was depicted and identified was a single balloon and radar target.

Yet elsewhere they claim it WAS a Mogul balloon crash spread over a large area.
I think you're misinterpreting what they presented.

-First, Cavitt's 20 feet square would be a bit large for a single balloon.
-Second, didn't Brazel already pick up some of the debris before they got there?
-Third, you keep assuming that the only two balloon options are a single weather balloon or Mogul, and for some reason you don't consider the possibility that Mogul may have not remained 100% intact after crash landing. I don't know why you refuse to consider this possibility, but it seems possible to me that part of the remains of Mogul could have landed on one debris field and parts could land somewhere else. Being dragged on the ground could separate parts of the balloon train and if some heavier parts were ripped off the rest would be lighter and could float back up to land elsewhere. I don't know what happened I'm just saying this is possible.
-Fourth, you don't seem to consider that no two witnesses tell the exact same story even if they saw the exact same thing. It's possible the size of the debris was actually somewhere in the middle of the extremes described by witnesses.
-Fifth, the USAF does deny a HUGE debris field, but I only see where they present Cavitt's 20 square feet (they don't confirm that figure, do they?), and based on my interpretation of the report the don't rule out point four, that Cavitt might have had an estimate on the small end. They only say it wasn't HUGE, they don't say it couldn't have been larger than Cavitt's 20 square feet, do they?

Perhaps Cavitt underestimated the size of the debris field, and perhaps no other witness got the exact size correct either. Even if you assume Cavitt is lying, we are still left with Marcel's unremarkable testimony about debris that sounds like balloon debris. I know it doesn't sound like it to you, but it sure sounds like it to me. If you don't agree about that we will have to agree to disagree.

And Cavitt is certainly entitled to say the material is consistent with a weather balloon even if it was mogul because as you pointed out, the material WAS consistent between Mogul and a weather balloon, it's just that Mogul had much more of it and a few extra components (that may or may not have been recovered).

Again, I'm not sure what they recovered was Mogul, but even if I suspected Cavitt of lying and believed Marcel's story which in part I do believe, he's still describing what sounds like balloon debris to me after accounting for the decades he's had to embellish the story, so it's really his embellishments I find suspect and not his entire story. For example, I don't think there's any material that can't be cut. Diamond is the hardest substance known and we can even cut diamonds into shapes for diamond rings. The other self-evident part of Marcel's story that makes that claim seem kind of ludicrous, is he both describes how it can't be cut and yet how it is apparently shredded into tiny little pieces over the entire debris field. Isn't this inconsistent?
edit on 2-1-2011 by Arbitrageur because: fix typo



posted on Jan, 2 2011 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by debrisfield
Recap: The Air Force counterintelligence debunkers in 1994 took the position that:
1. The debris field was TINY (Cavitt's 20 feet square). Stories of large debris fields and multiple debris fields were all exaggerations.
2. What was in Ramey's office was not substituted debris but what was recovered. All that was depicted and identified was a single balloon and radar target.

Yet elsewhere they claim it WAS a Mogul balloon crash spread over a large area.
I think you're misinterpreting what they presented.

-First, Cavitt's 20 feet square would be a bit large for a single balloon.
(snip)


From a December 8, 1979 interview of Jesse A. Marcel Sr. by National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt:

Pratt: How many pieces were there?
Marcel: It might have been hundreds. ...
Pratt: When you went out there that morning, you could see this stuff scattered for quite a ways in the distance?
Marcel: Lord, yes, about as far as you could see - three-quarters [of a] mile long and two hundred to three hundred feet wide. ...


FBI Teletype message, July 8, 1947, concerning the Roswell "Disc"

... TELEPHONICALLY ADVISED THIS OFFICE THAT AN OBJECT PURPORTING TO BE A FLYING DISC WAS RE COVERED NEAR ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO, THIS DATE. THE DISC IS HEXAGONAL IN SHAPE AND WAS SUSPENDED FROM A BALLON (sic) BY CABLE, WHICH BALLON (sic) WAS APPROXIMATELY TWENTY FEET IN DIAMETER. MAJOR CURTAN (sic - Kirton) FURTHER ADVISED THAT THE OBJECT FOUND RESEMBLES A HIGH ALTITUDE WEATHER BALLOON WITH A RADAR REFLECTOR, BUT THAT TELEPHONIC CONVERSATION BETWEEN THEIR OFFICE AND WRIGHT FIELD HAD NOT ... BORNE OUT THIS BELIEF. DISC AND BALLOON BEING TRANSPORTED TO WRIGHT FIELD BY SPECIAL PLANE FOR EXAMIN INFORMATION PROVIDED THIS OFFICE BECAUSE OF NATIONAL INTEREST IN CASE ... AND FACT THAT NATIONAL BROADCASTING COMPANY, ASSOCIATED PRESS, A OTHERS ATTEMPTING TO BREAK STORY OF LOCATION OF DISC TODAY. MAJOR CURTAN (sic) ADVISED WOULD REQUEST WRIGHT FIELD TO ADVISE CINCINNATI OFFICE RESULTS OF EXAMINATION. NO FURTHER INVESTIGATION BEING CONDUCTED.


The underlining was done by someone, as opposed to equipment, and there are other handwritten notes all over the copy, as well as additional official text. There are a lot of pages in Pflock's book dedicated to copies of documents. But just the above official FBI document is enough to "prove" that the debris was not of an alien craft and no mention of bodies.

edit on 2-1-2011 by The Shrike because: Correct grammar.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike
FBI Teletype message, July 8, 1947, concerning the Roswell "Disc"
So you don't think the FBI knew that the Freedom of Information Act would be passed about 19 years later in 1966 and planted that memo as disinformation to hide the recovery of an alien craft?

Neither do I.

It also seems to highlight that while it appeared to be some kind of balloon-like material, they were having trouble identifying it, contrary to the claims that nobody would have any problems identifying the type of balloon. It's clear that it wasn't an ordinary weather balloon, whatever type of balloon it was, so Brazel and Marcel were both right about that much.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by spacevisitor
(snip)
Does that not count also for what the military said about it all, because how come that you believe so strongly that it was indeed nothing more than a mogul balloon while you know that it is quite clear now that the military was lying to their teeth back then as they did also later on?
(snip)


I don't want to sound unkind because you ask questions to which you want answers. But I've answered similar questions over and over since the 1980s.


It’s not necessary to sound unkind, because you can’t expect from me that I know or remember all those by you answered similar questions over and over since the 1980s right?


Originally posted by The Shrike
However, I copied and pasted one of your questions above which I will answer. I do not "believe" so strongly that it was more than a Mogul balloon. First, I do not "believe", I say that of all of the explanations, the Mogul balloon train has more credibility than any other explanation. But, primarily, I do not accept that a UFO crashed, not near Roswell nor anywhere else on the planet. Claims come and claims go and so far no one has provided any irrefutable evidence of a UFO crashing anywhere. So, Roswell balloon train, yes. Roswell UFO crash, no.


Well, if that is your view and opinion about it, I will respect that.

But I do not believe that it was a Mogul balloon and here is just a small part of the information for why I do not believe that.

Here are some photographs of a mogul balloon from 1947, the first was posted by yourself in another thread.


Originally posted by The Shrike

Mogul Balloon Train - The 3 sections are really one long construction hence "train"





Here are some other photographs which give me a very good impression at how such a balloon in reality look like.
It’s really far from being spectacular and obviously nothing more than plane simple back to Earth technology from back then.


Roswell 1947 - Photographs

MOGUL BALLOON TRAIN AND MOGUL PARTS PHOTOGRAPHS:



Above: In the forefront of this photograph of a Mogul balloons train on the ground before flight, three ML-307BIAP radar targets. These radar targets were used on the Mogul balloon trains to make it visible to radar.
Photograph source:
"The Roswell Report: Case Closed", USAF report by McAndrew, published by the Headquarters United States Air Force through the U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington D.C., page 231, 1997.



Above: Several ML-307BIAP radar targets on a launched Mogul balloon train. On the top, two of the balloons of the Mogul balloons train are visible.
Photograph source:
"The Roswell Report: Case Closed", USAF report by McAndrew, published by the Headquarters United States Air Force through the U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington D.C., page 231, 1997.

Above: Preparation of Mogul flight N.9 launch New York University students on July 3, 1947, near Alamogordo.
Photograph source:
Photograph by Eileen Farnochi, released by Mogul scientist Charles B. Moore.



Above: Launch of Mogul flight N.9 by New York University students on the evening of July 3, 1947, near Alamogordo.
Photograph source:
Photograph by Eileen Farnochi, released by Mogul scientist Charles B. Moore.



Above: a radar target as used on a Mogul balloon train.
Photograph source: US Air Force.



Above: the corner of a radar target as used on a Mogul balloon train, showing the balsa wood sticks and reinforcement scotch tape.
Photograph source: US Air Force.



Above: debris of a Mogul balloon, which has been exposed to the sun.
Photograph source: US Air Force.


www.ufologie.net...


Then this important testimony from Thomas Jefferson Dubose, retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.


Originally posted by Gazrok
THE CASE FOR ROSWELL PART I.

Additionally, there is the testimony (as a sworn affidavit) of the other man in the photo other than the General, that proves to be an interesting read… roswellproof.homestead.com...



1) My name is Thomas Jefferson Dubose

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.

(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at Fort Worth Army Air Field [later Carswell Air Force Base] in Fort Worth, Texas. I served as Chief of Staff to Major General Roger Ramey, Commander, Eight Air Force. I had the rank of Colonel.

(5) In early July, I received a phone call from Maj. Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command. He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported in the press. I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth. I so informed Maj. Gen. McMullen.

(6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy.

(7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: T. J. Dubose
Date: 9/16/91

Signature witnessed by:
Linda R. Split
Notary Public, State of Florida


reply to post by Gazrok
 


So, after reading this, I do wonder myself the following points.

why would they if it was only just some debris of a Mogul balloon taken all that effort for sending some of the debris/material by personal courier due plane to Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] Benjamin Chidlaw?

and why if it was again only just debris of a Mogul balloon was that entire operation conducted under the strictest secrecy?

I really cannot believe that they would do that.

This is what I also find quite remarkable.


There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there
were letters on some of the parts. Considerable scotch tape and some tape
with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

No strings or wires were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.

Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but
that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.



www.cufon.org...

For those interested, here is an interesting article about a study of the debris that was found at Roswell regarding if it could really have been debris from a Mogul balloon.

An Engineer Looks at the Project Mogul Hypothesis by Robert A. Galganski


The debris field
Most of the debris consisted of lightweight, thin-gage, flat or slightly curved, sheet like fragments exhibiting physical properties atypical of late-1940s technology.
There appears to have been two distinct types at the site:

(1) foil-like pieces easily crumpled by hand which completely recovered their original shape and showed no signs of wrinkling when released;

and

(2) pieces which could not be deformed or damaged by any means, even when whacked with a 16-pound sledgehammer. I refer to both kinds of debris, which would not burn, as thin-shell material. (Common thin-shell products—which do not possess such extraordinary deformation characteristics—include Saran wrap, balloon film, aluminum foil, and motor-vehicle and aircraft body panels.)



Summary and conclusion
A mathematical model idealized the debris field as a variable-length, parabola-shaped region sparsely covered with fragments of an extraordinary thin-shell material.
It was assumed that Mogul Flight 4 created the debris field, leaving behind metalized-paper, rawin-radar-target remnants having a known total surface area.
Model-predicted and Mogul Flight 4-supplied thin-shell material surface areas were compared. One Mogul balloon train could account for only an extremely small fraction of the reported debris, even if Major Jesse Marcel had badly overestimated the field size.
Clearly, Project Mogul Flight 4 could not have been responsible for the debris found on the Foster ranch. Indeed, the analysis illustrates in a most compelling fashion just how absurd the Air Force’s Mogul hypothesis really is.


www.think-aboutit.com...


edit on 3/1/11 by spacevisitor because: Made some corrections and did some adding

edit on 3/1/11 by spacevisitor because: did some adding



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:41 AM
link   
It's no secret that Mac was held by the military, and recanted his story while being detained, just as it's no secret Ramey worked the balloon coverup story immediately after the story broke.

There's even an additional witness, Frank Joyce, who attests to Brazel telling him that he had to change his story...in addition of course, to Brazel himself stating he had to change it.

In addition, before the crash, Brazel's finances were described as "not being able to rub two nickels together", yet right after, he's driving a new truck, and opening a business in a new town, etc. Now, granted, most testimony supports Brazel's main reason for coming into town was to look at getting a newer Jeep truck. Rationing was still in effect, so long driving trips were made only for something important.

So, we come back to the main problem always encountered with the Roswell witnesses. We have to decide whether or not their story changes were due to the military telling them to keep quiet, or whether it's due to fame-seeking or even just bad memory. In the end, we all have to make our own assessment of it.



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 04:57 PM
link   
reply to post by The Shrike
 


I find it hard to believe that the 509th couldn't tell the difference between a weather balloon and a flying disk...

Gen Rameys public communications direct wrote is a sworn statement that was to opened after his death
that the flying disk story was to be published to distract attention away from the 2nd crash site in Corona where lay a more intact craft!

Now you have to admit that this is the way the Army Air Force operates! Admit some truth but twist it, then recount previous statements once the heat is off.

The official story has changed 4 times!!!



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 07:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by The Shrike
FBI Teletype message, July 8, 1947, concerning the Roswell "Disc"

So you don't think the FBI knew that the Freedom of Information Act would be passed about 19 years later in 1966 and planted that memo as disinformation to hide the recovery of an alien craft?

Neither do I.


We again have an example of the total irrationality of the debunker arguments, where they want mutually exclusive things to be true.

The FBI was told by one of Ramey's intelligence officer it was an ordinary SINGLE weather balloon and radar target. Ramey said it was a ordinary SINGLE weather balloon and radar target. Ramey's officer Newton, then and now, said it was an ordinary SINGLE weather balloon and radar target. Roswell counterintelligence agent Cavitt interviewed by the AF in 1994 (after denying for years he was involved in any way or even at Roswell) claimed it was a very tiny balloon crash no bigger than his living room, or 20 feet square.

This, the modern USAF counterintelligence agents argued in their 1994 report, was all totally consistent with the quantity and type of debris shown in the 1947 Fort Worth photos (which it was), namely an ordinary SINGLE weather balloon and radar target. Stories of additional recoveries of debris were all exaggerations. What you saw in the photos was what you got--all of it.

Furthermore, back in 1947, it was claimed that no other equipment was found. That was certainly Ramey's story and Mack Brazel's. In fact, Brazel even denied the existence of any sort of balloon rigging being found (no string or wire was found, he said). Intel agent Marcel likewise said nothing about equipment or rigging back in 1947. None was shown in the photos taken.

Brazel also indicated only a small quantity of small rubber pieces, which he presumed to be from A balloon (again the singular being used, before denying at the end that it wasn't "in any way" like the weather balloons he had previously found). He also said he found sticks and foil, presumably from A (singular) "kite" which he allegedly tried to reassemble. All told, the lot of debris added up to maybe 5 pounds. This would be more than only one typical weather balloon and one radar target, which would weigh only about 1 pound, but, but not a lot. But still this was inconsistent with what was described in Fort Worth and shown in the photos, which again was only one balloon and one radar target

But, simultaneously, present-day debunkers claim the debris was supposed to come from a 600 foot Mogul balloon train made up of about 28 weather balloons and multiple radar targets (3-5), plus all the other rigging (hundreds of yards of it), plus all the various equipment a Mogul might carry: parachutes, a radiosonde, a sonobuoy, batteries, and ballast and altitude control equipment. This was supposed to explain Brazel's 200 yard across description of the debris field, and though never mentioned by the debunkers, Marcel's 1947 and later scattered over a "square mile," or 200-300 feet wide by 3/4 mile long

So there you have it. The Roswell event was simultaneously a single balloon/target with no rigging or equipment, as described and photographed in 1947, and a 28 balloon/multi-target Mogul with hundreds of yards of rigging and all attendant equipment, also simultaneously a tiny balloon crash no bigger than CIC agent Cavitt's living room. Cavitt's crash area varies by about a factor of 1000 with Brazel's, which varies by about another factor of 100 with Marcel's "square mile."

And finally Brazel's description of only small pieces or strips of rubber material do not match up with the photos showing an intact balloon. Brazel's descriptions of "flower tape", supposedly that can only be associated with a Mogul crash, also do not show up in the photos taken back in 1947.

Yet the debunkers will tell you these descriptions are all perfectly consistent, and then congratulate themselves as "critical thinkers" and insult those who say "wait, that makes no sense" as "gullible believers." It seems to me they have it totally backwards.


It also seems to highlight that while it appeared to be some kind of balloon-like material, they were having trouble identifying it, contrary to the claims that nobody would have any problems identifying the type of balloon. It's clear that it wasn't an ordinary weather balloon, whatever type of balloon it was, so Brazel and Marcel were both right about that much.


Again, a debunker trying to have it both ways. It was just an ordinary weather balloon and radar target was the story and photos back in 1947, just like was used by weather services all over the country. But it was also simultaneously NOT an ordinary balloon, because Wright Field said they couldn't identify it when contacted by the FBI.

How can both stories be true? They can't be, not in the real world, unless the FBI was simply lied to about what was really found. A weather balloon and radar target would be extraordinarily easy to identify for experts at Wright Field, even over the phone. The official story was also no other equipment, and none was shown in the photos. The FBI telegram indicates the FBI wasn't told about any additional equipment that they might have discussed with Wright Field. So what exactly was it that was so hard for Wright Field experts to identify: A rubber balloon? Tinfoil and balsa wood sticks?

And then there is the question of the nonexistent, totally undocumented Mogul balloon that the debunkers argue caused the debris. How can a nonexistent balloon flight explain anything?

You can bet Shrike and Arbitrageur will continue to duck the question of the missing documentation for the alleged Mogul. Instead, what Mogul records show is a total blank in the records where the alleged Mogul would have been recorded. This was true also of the previous two flights that also never got off the ground. They were never recorded either, and it is clear from comments in Mogul reports that is because the flights were canceled for various problems, just as the alleged "Roswell" Mogul was (excessive cloud cover according to the one and only mention of an attempted flight from a diary).

Modern-day AF counterintelligence agents instead tried to lie all three nonexistent flights into existence to make the case for Mogul, and our gullible, unthinking debunkers continue to uncritically lap it up.

So they you have the debunkers' case. A nonexistent giant Mogul balloon crashed, and then magically lost its rigging and equipment, reducing itself down to the remains of exactly one weather balloon and one radar target to be shown in Fort Worth, indistinguishable from any other ordinary weather balloon/target. Yet Wright Field still couldn't identify what it was when the FBI called because the debris was simultaneously not from an ordinary balloon and target.

This idiocy would be a great comedy act!



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 09:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by spacevisitor
An Engineer Looks at the Project Mogul Hypothesis by Robert A. Galganski


The debris field
(2) pieces which could not be deformed or damaged by any means, even when whacked with a 16-pound sledgehammer. I refer to both kinds of debris
If it can't be damaged, then why is it in pieces?

That claim debunks itself, right?

In other words, it's in pieces because it was damaged.
And if it couldn't be damaged then it wouldn't be in pieces.

Do people even think about these claims? I don't see how any sense can be made of that claim other than to dismiss it. Am I missing something?



posted on Jan, 3 2011 @ 11:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spacevisitor
An Engineer Looks at the Project Mogul Hypothesis by Robert A. Galganski


The debris field
(2) pieces which could not be deformed or damaged by any means, even when whacked with a 16-pound sledgehammer. I refer to both kinds of debris
If it can't be damaged, then why is it in pieces?

That claim debunks itself, right?

In other words, it's in pieces because it was damaged.
And if it couldn't be damaged then it wouldn't be in pieces.

Do people even think about these claims? I don't see how any sense can be made of that claim other than to dismiss it. Am I missing something?


Yes--common sense and a little basic knowledge of material science. Materials can be broken, cut, torn, creased, marked etc., if their physical load limits are exceeded. Thus a very strong material might be shattered by an explosion or when placed in a pneumatic press, but resist efforts to be cut, torn, broken, bent, etc. when forces are much weaker, such as applying force by hand, trying to cut with a hand knife, or even hammering with a sledge hammer. Think the difference between a plane being torn to pieces in a plane crash, yet those picking up the individual pieces from the crash, being unable to break any of the metal pieces by hand.

This is certainly easy for us to comprehend with thicker materials, such thick sheet metal or even thicker metal plate. But one thing that amazed Roswell debris witnesses was how thin and lightweight the material was, what you could ordinarily deform, tear, cut, etc., by hand or knife, yet they couldn't do it.

This certainly wouldn't apply to ordinary balloon materials allegedly found, such as rubber balloons, thin balsa wood sticks, Scotch tape, and foil-paper, same stuff chewing gum and candy bars were wrapped in. Anybody would be able to tear, cut, break, crease, etc., even a baby or toddler. These are very fragile materials.

To deny that many people described such anomalous physical properties to the Roswell material is simply an exercise in psychological denial or just plain debunkery. Again, here is a compendium of debris descriptions from a variety of witnesses, military and civilian, not just Major Jesse Marcel:

www.roswellproof.com...

Such remarkable materials are now beginning to emerge from our material labs, though they seemed near impossible when first described 30+ years ago. Maybe the closest to the "memory foil" that couldn't be creased, cut, broken, dented, etc., and would return to its original shape is so-called Liquidmetal, alloys of various metals that break up the normal crystalline structure, making them amorphous like a liquid, giving them some remarkable properties: high elastic limits or memory, unusually high strength, unusual hardness, resistance to cutting, creasing, etc.

www.liquidmetal.com...

More on Liquidmetal, and other emerging supermaterials:

www.roswellproof.com...

You won't be able to damage Liquidmetal either with ordinary hand-testing, but it certainly can be stressed beyond its limits and be broken, cut, etc. "Indestructable" is a relative term that doesn't literally mean impossible to damage, just not capable of being damaged with the torture tests on hand.
edit on 3-1-2011 by debrisfield because: Fix link

edit on 3-1-2011 by debrisfield because: Fix link



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