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still think chemtrails are not real?

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posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by apex
 


Okay, that's fine. I agree. But that doesn't mean Chemtrails aren't being sprayed.
You quote me but then leave out the part where I ask for a video? It will be hard because they don't exist.

I understand some peoples disbelief. Maybe they simply don't spray where you live and you have not witnessed a fleet of craft cover your sky with chemtrails in less than 2 hours.
I have been around aviation my entire life. I have never seen a commercial craft leave a horizon to horizon "contrail" at any altitude. My father was in the Air Force and has been a commercial pilot for 30+ years. Both of us and many other pilots are in complete agreement that trying to pass off horizon to horizon Chemtrails as contrails is a load of garbage.




posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by dplum517
Show me a VIDEO of a commercial craft leaving a horizon to horizon "contrail" as you say. Shouldn't be that hard since according to some folks all the chemtrails are simply commercial liner contrails. A still image will NOT do. I want a video of a clear commercial craft leaving the horizon to horizon "contrail."


I left this out earlier becuase it isn't really relevant to what I was saying. But here goes. I question why you feel a video is necessary proof where an image isn't, though I don't have any images of horizon to horizon contrails. either thats because they don't spray over my county, or it's because the major flight paths are to the north and not straight over. Of course, I don't remember seeing many when I lived in Sheffield either, and you would think they'd spray over what is, IIRC, one of the most populated cities in the UK.

And, as to:

I have been around aviation my entire life. I have never seen a commercial craft leave a horizon to horizon "contrail" at any altitude. My father was in the Air Force and has been a commercial pilot for 30+ years. Both of us and many other pilots are in complete agreement that trying to pass off horizon to horizon Chemtrails as contrails is a load of garbage.


Really? Have you taken a good picture of all the supposed chemtrail planes over you with which you can confirm they aren't airliners? And do you have any proof that these other aircraft which therefore do the spraying exist? They must land somewhere.

Ultimately to prove a chemtrail exists you need a sample of it from the sky, not down here where it could come from a lot of other sources.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by apex
 


No, unfortunately I do not have a powerful video camera to zoom in on them. But if you have a pair of astronomy binoculars they are powerful enough to see the planes have no markings on them.
Also, this is where it is hard to prove because I don't know where the planes land at. They certainly don't come from a commercial airport, I know this from simply watching the sky's next to an airport and also know and have looked up all departure times and where flight traffic should be.
If you read the other thread thats new about the former FBI Chief who claims to have seen the planes parked at certain national guard bases and what not. Go to that thread and watch the video.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by dplum517
But if you have a pair of astronomy binoculars they are powerful enough to see the planes have no markings on them.
Also, this is where it is hard to prove because I don't know where the planes land at. They certainly don't come from a commercial airport, I know this from simply watching the sky's next to an airport and also know and have looked up all departure times and where flight traffic should be.


I have to admit, you make it hard to believe you know about aviation. There are a lot of airports, for one thing, not all the planes in your area need to be landing near you, and it takes a very large distance for an airliner to safely descend from 11km or so down to the ground.
If you are near an airport and there are contrails in the sky, that would be because aircraft fly past that location all the time, and ones that are going to land will be a lot lower and so won't even be in the right place to create a contrail.

So, you are basically saying that aircraft fly past you at high altitude, which you are unable to identify due to the distance, and leave behind large trails that spread to become clouds. Where in that situation is proof that they are chemtrails?



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by dplum517
 


And your pictures or videos of these fleet of craft cover your sky with chemtrails in less than 2 hours?"
And I expect the lab reports to back up your claim of "chem", too.

I cannot prove something does not exist. You are the one making claims something does. It's emperical. If there are planes flying like you say, show the video. If they are "spraying" anything, show the lab reports.

Anecdotal evidence means nothing because you have in the past made many claims and statements that were LOL incorrect.
There are millions of pictures that exist of contrails, some as far back as WW2. Reports and studies of contrails persisting exist from the end of WW1. Even some "chemtrail" sites admit that. Here are two pictures. The first is found at Infowars.com.


source
The second is from Northland New Zealand Chemtrail Watch.


source

Considering your statement earlier,



Some pictures have been manipulated and put on the one of the most well known disinformation sites out there.

are you just upset because you have been duped by that website and don't want to think it's possible you are wrong?
You provide nothing but your anecdotes, observations, and insults. At least I produced something someone has called for. Even then I knew that you would find a way to weasel out of accepting anything anybody shows. You ignore common science, have made many factual errors, You know no one can show you a video with your qualifications because people who know they are contrails do not waste their time videoing the sky for a completely normal event. Only "chemtrailers" do that. And any video we could find would be posted as a "chemtrail" for that reason.
Onus is on you, the claimant to bring something, anythingto the debate to prove your conclusions have even a half-assed chance of needing further research. Something not from a "chemtrail" site, I expect good provenance, good science method, and peer-review would be lovely. It's what is expected to prove the facts behind any theory, even the unimagined ones.
edit on 18-1-2011 by stars15k because: fixed pix size to fit

edit on 18-1-2011 by stars15k because: fixing link



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:04 PM
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And the Argument goes on and on and on and on like a broken record from both sides.

IT is called GEOENGINEERING.

www.naturalnews.com...


www.abc.net.au...



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by apex
 


Hmmm, well, trying to convey certain information can be hard over the web using text.
Yes, you are absolutely right, the planes come on one after another descending from a long distance away. But, you are insinuating that the planes I see are all commercial? When they simply aren't.

Commercial planes don't "suddenly" come out in groups and sometimes fly in pairs leaving parallel Chemtrails. I have even seen 3 next to each other. They have a systematic way of covering the sky very efficiently using grids or "X"s to maximize how much sky they cover.

Again, I understand your disbelief, maybe you just have to see it to believe it..... like UFOs or something.

As for my knowledge of aviation..... I simply go off my life experiences I have had with it.... growing up in an Air Force family and flying all the time. I am not claiming to have degrees in the field or that I am some expert.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by dplum517
 



Your pictures? Your location? The route maps of airplanes around you?
Anything to bolster your claims?
Please?



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Human_Alien
reply to post by Dilligaf28
 


But when air samples and water samples (devoid the thousands of photos and videos) are offered up as proof yet STILL denied, what do you expect? Or want?


These samples were not taken directly from a contrail. They cannot possibly represent solely the contents of a normal contrail if they were taken from anywhere other than directly from a contrail.


How do you prove air?

By taking a sample from the specific air you are referring to...e.g. the air in the contrail


What you REALLY want is someone of authority to announce it. That's the ONLY proof that you're looking for. Admit it.
And you know as we all do, at the moment, it ain't happening.

I will not admit to something that is not the viewpoint I hold.


We have them admitting to cloud seeding, chaffing and geo-engineering the weather but that TOO.....you don't allow into the mix.

Please show me where I have not allowed cloud seeding, chaffing, or proposed but as of yet uninitiated geo-engineering in this discussion. I get the impression that somehow you feel validation of "chemtrails" because of cloud seeing and the like. Thats a false association not rooted in rationality or reason and is such a leap of logic as to be considered intellectually dishonest.


If they're doing that and admitting it, them why can't you allow for the fact that that might be what we're witnessing?

There is no fact to "what we might be seeing". What you say is observation and observation does not make for fact. Just because cloud seeding or what not occurs does not mean "chemtrails" are valid. You can repeat that association all you like but it will not change the invalidity of it.



I'll back off on the 'poisoning us part' if you admit they're up there doing something. And if you DON'T admit it, despite the fact that THEY have admitted to it then, your true colors will shine and we'll all know what your motives are.

This is a rather rudimentary attempt at construction an argument with a built in bias that would force me into either agreement with you or to admit I am in league with those you feel are "chemtrail" producers. You then further attempted to label me as having motives. This attempt did not succeed. I only post this in an honest effort to Deny Ignorance.



But tell you what....before I jump on the shill-wagon, tell me what PROOF do you want? You tell me (us) and I'll see if I can meet your demands.


This is the sole part of your reply that has any relevancy to my post. You are again however attempting to box me in by requesting that I tell you what will prove "chemtrails". If there is proof out there you should not need to be told what it is you should only need to supply it. Even after all after all the above items that I responded to I found no proof offered by you. You rather crudely and unsuccessfully tried to box me into groups of your own creation that I do not belong in as well as attempting to paint me as having motives other than my true desire to Deny Ignorance but you did not offer proof of "chemtrails" only disinfo and evasion.
edit on 18-1-2011 by Dilligaf28 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by dplum517
 



Your pictures? Your location? The route maps of airplanes around you?
Anything to bolster your claims?
Please?


If you actually read threads you will note that I have said I don't have powerful video cameras to zoom in. Anyone can get pics of regular chemtrails....they are everywhere. As for my location......it's right there every time you read one of my posts. Anyone can get the route maps of commercial planes but by no means does the military or other entities in the government need to disclose their plane routes to the public.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by Human_Alien
 


Oh, for Great Purple Spaghetti Monster's Sake, H_A!!!!! Weakest. Excuse/Deflection. Attempt. EVER!:


....but proof (such as uniforms, clothing, cars, hair styles etc ) will have to accompany said-photos so to show they're from the past....


Take your head out of the.... sand ....long enough to watch the following TV show episode. It is the "Outer Limits". Episode title "The Premonition". ORIGINAL Air Date: January 8, 1965!!

(Season 2, Episode 16):

You may watch the full episode, if interested....BUT, in just the opening shot, tell us if ANYTHING looks "familiar"...up in the sky there. The opening pan sequence lasts until 00:38. Oh, yeah....claim it was "photoshopped"....in 1965!!!




edit on 18 January 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Cmon weedwhacker. You and I both know that looks nothing like a Chemtrail. Not to mention the bulk of the dirty looking exhaust was on the ground when taking off.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


You are now declared the official ATS stand-up comedian! You are truly a laugh a minute.
Okay, let me catch my breath and stop laughing.............

(deep breath)

I think most of us (and even those who have just tackled the potty-training stage) knows; clouds from trails.

If this is your perception and representation of what we're talking about, it may behoove the FAA to re-test your ability to discern objects if you're up there with the potential of crashing into my house thinking it's a runway!

It's quite ironic that the (albeit, "cute") way of putting me down is a direct reflection of you i.e., "Get my head out of the sand" (classic!)

You're thoroughly enjoying this aren't you?



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by stars15k
 


Why did you show my pics of WW2 planes? I don't care about Contrails, I care about Chemtrails.... not to mention you don't know what the military did for countermeasures against radar....fuel additives, chaff, flak....

I have never claimed to support all Chemtrail websites or the other. That's like saying I agree with every Chemtrail person out there, which is ridiculous.

And you quoted me out of context. I was specific to the BS website "contrailscience.com"

Just because people spout off the their craziest thoughts and come up with odd theories does not negate the fact that Chemtrails exist. You keep asking me to get lab results or something...... duhhhh ...as if I have the resources to do all that...



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 03:51 PM
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Hi sky observer peoples !

Originally posted by firepilot
. . .How is it that there are ZERO professional pilots, or even general aviation pilots, that believe in this chemtrail garbage. . .?

! ! ! Here we have disinformation, again ! ! !

Blue skies ! !



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by Human_Alien
 



I think most of us (and even those who have just tackled the potty-training stage) knows; clouds from trails.


Then, it is true......no matter HOW much evidence is shown that "chem"-trails are a delusion, and based entirely on forms of confirmation bias....even in as much as to delude oneself to refuse to accept an obviously period photo of a no-longer-in-service jet (AND defunct airline)....but, to sit there, after seeing a film from 1965...confirmed, undeniable...and STILL refuse to see the contrails??? They are there, clearly....and, as today, some of them are joined by cirrus clouds....cirrus clouds likely spurred to form, by the very presence of the contrails, along with normal natural processes.

I found a hint (ironically, on a blog site devoted to the delusion of "Chem"-trail believers, to clap each other on the backs, and feed each others' paranoia fantasies) that the movie from the late 1970s, "Capricorn One" (a piece of schlock, but anyway...) has a lot of the sorts of contrails we see today, captured in the film, in the last hour. Terrible movie, downloading it now though, to scan through it for more examples.......



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by dplum517
 


And you keep evading the fact that you believe in something for which there is no proof, while asking people to prove a negative. Then you negate anything anyone provides. You have nothing to bring because there is nothing out there that would pass critical thinking. Not being able to think critically is a stumbling block to anyone who believes in "chemtrails". There is nothing to show they exist outside of anecdote, flawed and biased observations, and rhetoric. It's should not be a matter of money. I wouldn't have the money to run a test either, but I know there are tests that have been done. The results are easy to find......just research "contrail studies -chemtrails". Google has 681,000 hits.
The knowledge is out there, done by experts from all over the world, and all different disciplines. They are studying contrails because they are a concern and they don't study "chemtrails" because they know from testing that any trail is a contrail.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by dplum517
 


And you keep evading the fact that you believe in something for which there is no proof, while asking people to prove a negative. Then you negate anything anyone provides. You have nothing to bring because there is nothing out there that would pass critical thinking. Not being able to think critically is a stumbling block to anyone who believes in "chemtrails". There is nothing to show they exist outside of anecdote, flawed and biased observations, and rhetoric. It's should not be a matter of money. I wouldn't have the money to run a test either, but I know there are tests that have been done. The results are easy to find......just research "contrail studies -chemtrails". Google has 681,000 hits.
The knowledge is out there, done by experts from all over the world, and all different disciplines. They are studying contrails because they are a concern and they don't study "chemtrails" because they know from testing that any trail is a contrail.


Hmmm. Well I do believe that you are the one that cannot critically think.
Any trail is a contrail?
What about stunt planes with smoke?
What about planes that spray pesticide?
What about planes that seed clouds?
And I will ask this question since it is very relevant.
Are you not LDS? Because you said you were. If not, do you go to church? If so, you believe in something without ANY proof.

Oh, and I know Chemtrails exist NOT becuase of the internet but because of real life observation.
edit on 18-1-2011 by dplum517 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 07:25 PM
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No you don't.

You "know" chemtrails exist because you choose to ignore the vast amount of evidence that they are something ewlse, AND prefer to believe something that is unproven but simpler for your to comprehend.

which means you have been duped by of the hoax - one of its main planks....indeed one that it absolutely must maintain, is that 100+ years of atmospheric science is all part of the conspiracy.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by dplum517
 


Why do you IGNORE the answers to your questions below, but instead keep asking them???


What about stunt planes with smoke?
What about planes that spray pesticide?
What about planes that seed clouds?


Low altitude.
Low altitude.
Low altitude.


NOT at 28,000 to 40,000 feet! Commercial jets, mostly passenger (some FedEx/UPS/DHL) and ALL that comes out of the engines is exhaust, typical from burning petroleum...and WATER....which, when there is already a LOT of other WATER VAPOR present, will over-saturate and condense out, and freeze almost instantly, into the tiny ice particles that make up ALL cirrus-type clouds (for, at those altitudes, they ARE all cirrus....only exception is when occasionally very powerful cumulonimbus grow and grow from well below, and poke up to menace us at altitude).

They don't last up there for long, few hours...as they constantly change and evolve, and eventually lose their energy and collapse back down...mostly from raining/hailing, and just all the other energy they expel in formation.

Really...you COULD study a bit of meteorology, it is all there...and much, much more to learn....and, much of it is FREE online!!!

edit on 18 January 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



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