FBI Delivers Anti-terror Flyers to Farm Supply Stores

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade
Ammonium nitrate in large quantities is sold in these stores, can be used in bombs, especially dangerous and explosive when mixed with fuel and a proper ignition device is is used.

I worked with ANFO in the mining industry for years and use to buy fertilizer grade AN for blasting.
after some of the bombing like the one at the world trade center and the OK Federal building the federal government banned the sale of Prilled Ammonium Nitrate fertilizers with a Ammonium Nitrate concentration high enough to be used for explosives.

Only some one that is a chemist or chemical plant technician with large equipment that could do temperature controlled crystallisation could extract the AN in a usable form.

There is only one place you could still buy Prilled Ammonium Nitrate without a explosives permit in a form that is use able and that is in small amounts and that is from a drug store or medical supply store.(it must still be modified for use but its easy)
I will not identify the product as i want a source for it if i need to blow something up.

reply to post by Stewie


Uh huh. Even so, ANFO packs a hell of a punch and has been used intermittently by a variety of violent groups since the 1970s. The IRA, FARC, and the first WTC bombers come to mind.

What exactly is your specific objection to sales clerks asking a few, basic questions to unfamiliar people trying to buy ammonium nitrate fertilizer? Shouldn't they at least be making sure that the buyer isn't just some jackass who read about ANFO on the Internet and wants to make a big boom in his backyard? It kind of makes sense - to me, at least - to do a quick check that someone buying ammonium nitrate knows what they're using it for and can explain their project fairly easily, since it seems kind of suspicious for someone who doesn't really know what they're doing to be buying a known bomb-making material.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade

To think otherwise then anyone should be able to buy explosives of any kind for any reason, want some C4? no problem how much? ,,, No questions asked!

How C-4 Works

That page contains a thorough explanation of the ingredients and proportions for C-4. Anyone who wants to badly enough can find all the ingredients. Heck, anyone with a little knowledge can buy enough 'common' items in a convenience store to leave a crater where it stood. A fan and some common flour can make a building into a bomb. Napalm, thermite, they are actually easy to make. I don't make and use them because I do not wish to, not because I don't have the ability. Anyone with a little knowledge can create an explosion easily using hundreds of chemical combinations, most of which are even more powerful compared to the size of the ingredients.

Maybe it would be easier if we just outlawed chemistry?

TheRedneck

What if said fertilizer salesman themselves wanted to use it for a bomb?

They going to ask themselves questions?

What if said fertilizer salesman had a *ax to grind* with a said farmer.

*Lets tell the fbi this guy seems suspicious make him have a bad day*

All around this idea is silly.

reply to post by TheRedneck


The more complicated and difficult it is to make a bomb the less likely it is for some people to attempt it.

If someone is intelligent enough and crazy enough then likely nothing will stop them from building a bomb.. But it should never be as easy as ammonium nitrate was.

reply to post by pr3l33t

I have a lot of objections to it.
Primarily, it is not a problem that needs a solution. It is a benign "potential" problem.
Secondly, there are real criminals out there doing real damage, but they are bankers so they are off limits..
And, we as a country don't really have the money for this nonsense. Have you been keeping up with the fiscal situation of our federal government?
Why are we being sold all of this FEAR??? Don't you think that maybe there is an unstated motive to all of this? Do you really trust the FBI, the BATFE, the CIA, Homeland Security? If so, why?
Read about the Alfred Murrah bombing, Waco, 911 for christs sake.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade

You still don't understand... I can make thermite or napalm in a fraction of the time I would need to make a fertilizer bomb, and probably for less money. As far as explosive force to initial weight goes, ammonium nitrate is not that great. Why do you think Timothy McVeigh needed a U-Haul?

I doubt if I would have a problem over the 'new customer' or 'out-of-state tags' restrictions, but when they say that paying cash (which I do regularly for purchases), being impatient (who isn't after a long wait or in a hurry?), or not being able to answer some vaguely-defined questions (do you know the exact pH of your soil offhand?) is a flag for terrorist activity, then I start to worry.

Those are not good indicators of terrorism... they are indicators of business as usual for some people.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by pr3l33t
This one seems pretty simple to me: if someone is buying fertilizer and seems excessively interested in ammonium nitrate fertilizer, you ask them a few questions about what they plan to do with it, see if they seem legit, and then sell it to them. Of all the government measures being taken, this is one that just seems ridiculously blown out of proportion by the fringe. Fertilizer bombs can be insanely powerful - look at the Oklahoma City bombing - and it kind of makes sense to just check in with people who are buying fertilizer that can be used to make explosives. On top of that, they say to focus mainly on new customers, not to interrogate everyone who even looks at fertilizer. I think this is fairly sensible, especially given that it's not any kind of rule or directive. Please people, focus your outrage on something worth your time.

Anyone who has done the research knows that a fertilizer bomb could not have done the damage in Oklahoma. The are difficult to make and even harder to ignite. It is basically ammonium nitrate saturated in diesel fuel. Diesel is not easy to light like gasoline add in a bunch of solid fertilizer and it is even more difficult.

reply to post by TheRedneck

Exactly. The terrorists they're really after, are us. They fear there are too many of us that know what you know. And we might just use it on them. So little by little, they're limiting access to whatever they can. And at the same time, trying to track what they can't limit. This is just one more step along the way. "See something, Say something".

I'm sorry Redneck, I'm gonna have to turn you in. Paying cash. Impatient. Dissenting remarks. Knowing too much. Sounds like a terrorist to me.

The enemy is us folks.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Anyone who has done the research knows that a fertilizer bomb could not have done the damage in Oklahoma. The are difficult to make and even harder to ignite. It is basically ammonium nitrate saturated in diesel fuel. Diesel is not easy to light like gasoline add in a bunch of solid fertilizer and it is even more difficult.

I honestly have no idea what that has to do with the majority of my post... I'm not even saying this is something the FBI should be involved in, this is just plain common sense. You shouldn't sell things which risk being used in a dangerous fashion to people who are clueless about what they're buying. If someone walks into a grocery store and tries to buy a can of spray-on deodorant and a lighter, you should ask them what they're planning on using it for. If someone completely unfamiliar walks into a farm supply store and tries to buy several bags of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, you should make sure that they're planning on using it for a legitimate purpose. I know that people can make up excuses and evade detection, but just using your discretion and making sure that someone at least seems to be buying something potentially dangerous for a legitimate purpose is part of being a responsible vendor. It's the same reason you card people buying cigarettes and alcohol (and before you libertarian/anarchist hacks get on my case, no I don't think drinking ages should be so high, so don't waste your time typing out some angry rant about how evil it is that high school kids can't get sh*tfaced on the weekend); the first layer deters the less competent. Again, I bring up the example of the random jackass who just wants to make a big boom. We know those types of people exist and it's probably a good idea to make it at least a little harder for them to blow themselves (or, worse, somebody else) up because they don't know how powerful ANFO is (or do, but just don't care).

Also, ever heard of a detonator? They're pretty handy little things for making stuff blow up that's explosive. Also, look up the 1993 Bishopsgate bombing, an IRA bombing that used ANFO, in London.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I think this really all comes down to intent, whether the buyer is just ignorant, impatient, in a hurry or just looks suspicious, if it is ultimately found that someone was intent on buying bomb making materials, and as a result of this flyer and requests was reported, and investigated and was found to be attempting to build a bomb to murder people and that is prevented then how can that be a bad thing?

And what exactly have we the people lost in that process?

In reality there are far greater threats that need to be focused on, but that doesn't mean that law enforcement should not be focused on the potential random lunatic that may be seeking ways to make a bomb.

This really is thrown out as a potential net to possibly catch that random lunatic when or if he/she attempts to purchase bomb making materials.

Not a big deal here.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Originally posted by pr3l33t


Anyone who has done the research knows that a fertilizer bomb could not have done the damage in Oklahoma. The are difficult to make and even harder to ignite. It is basically ammonium nitrate saturated in diesel fuel. Diesel is not easy to light like gasoline add in a bunch of solid fertilizer and it is even more difficult.

You do not understand how ANFO works or how its mixed.

One its not a saturated mix.its just enough to dampen the prill.(6 percent
by weight of fuel oil)
Two you do not light it. (by the way you can mix gasoline with AN and it will also explode so will vegetable oil)
You have to use a detonator with booster explosive to detonate it.

I have set it off by the ton in quarry blast

This is obscene, and NAZI GERMANY. Who would hand out brochures relating to suspicious behavior, AND THEN LABEL THIS AS SUSPECTED TERRORISM. The behavior just makes the person normally suspicious.

Its the Bloodlines/Bildenburgs/Cartels/International Bankers who fit that description best.

I'm an asst. mngr at a farm supply store. I have not seen the flyer...looking forward to meeting an FBI agent. I will probably end up on his list after we meet... probably already on it if he has seen the rear end of my truck.

Most of my customers are farmers and self-reliant people...they fly the American Flag, think taxes are too high, believe in individual rights and the Constitution, believe in the rights of land owners, many are Christians, almost all have guns, and they think the US govt is too damn big...these traits alone put them on the DHS threat list and defines them as extremists

...now buying fertilizer will push them over the edge and make them terrorists.

After getting to know my customers...all I can say is fertilizer should be the least of the FBI's worries.

Why are you going on about this fertilizer stuff? Dont you people realize its just listed there to make it look better? Youre already falling for it it seems,forget about those fertilizers and look closer.

Originally posted by ANNED

Originally posted by hawkiye
Originally posted by pr3l33t


Anyone who has done the research knows that a fertilizer bomb could not have done the damage in Oklahoma. The are difficult to make and even harder to ignite. It is basically ammonium nitrate saturated in diesel fuel. Diesel is not easy to light like gasoline add in a bunch of solid fertilizer and it is even more difficult.

You do not understand how ANFO works or how its mixed.

One its not a saturated mix.its just enough to dampen the prill.(6 percent
by weight of fuel oil)
Two you do not light it. (by the way you can mix gasoline with AN and it will also explode so will vegetable oil)
You have to use a detonator with booster explosive to detonate it.

I have set it off by the ton in quarry blast

I did not want to give any details or ratios unlike you and spoke in terms anyone could understand. And yes you do light it (I believe I used the term ignite) and regardless of how it is accomplished it is an accelerated "burn" causing expansion and explosion which is lighting it. But thanks for your input.

People...no body is making a fertilizer bomb...they never were and never will...if they have more than one brain
cell they will realize that the fertilizer out there is not strong enough.

This is the story that the FBI is feeding the public on behalf of DHS to set the fuse on their own bomb....and program I call F&F (Fear and Fink).

Pay attention...do not watch the hand you are told to....watch the other hand that is really doing the duty.
Such a SS move. This is how it started in Germany....guess they saved their notes.

Always a light touch in the beginning....

I personally find it nothing wrong in helping the authorities. Simple enough job really, a question or 2 and pass on the info.

And that's where the abuses will start.

Johnny Sourface hates my guts. I worked hard on my farm, got the looks and every weekend I have a girl and a pick up truck that blends into the woods at night for some intimacy. I buy a few bags of fertalizer one day, and the next, I'm pounced upon by the FBI who grilled me to no end, intrusion into my privacy, denying my rights as a citizen, even if the evidence of my need is right under their nose - the fields.


Tommy Niceboy always had a smile while serving his customers. He doesn't interferes into others biz, recognizes a persons right to privacy and sells what they want. One day, the Feds pounced on him and hauled him to gitmo bay - for selling fertizers which was traced to his store - accomplice to terrorism.

Best the authorities know where to draw the line and make it clear in its fight against terrorism. 'Either you be the hero now or you will only live long enough to become the villian in the end'.as the laws and regulations passed in the initial stages becomes casted in stone and becomes the deadweight to a society and a terror to the people, leading to a reign of fear instead of one with courage that will evolve humanity.

reply to post by thecinic


In addition to fertalizer, deisel fuel that is used on farms in addition to anhydrous amonia and many other items that can be used to manufacture drugs or explosives. If you think about it, its hard as hell to botain this material in sufficient quantities unless you are a farmer or manufacturer.

Its easier to go to a farm in the middle of the night and steal the items in sufficenet quantity than it would be to try to obtain this stuff through legal channels. Its possible for a farmer to have over 40 head of cattle stolen in the middle of the night, which is no easy feat.

Its even easier to obtain items that don't moo...

The County Sheriffs department has a program with the farmers that allows the anhydrous to be color coded and logged. This way if the stuff is stolen, the anhydrous can be tracked back to the location it came from to easier identify the scene of the crime.

To me there is nothing bad about trying to open up lines of communication with people to be mindful of their surroundings and items they possess that has dual use.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

Exactly. The terrorists they're really after, are us. They fear there are too many of us that know what you know. And we might just use it on them. So little by little, they're limiting access to whatever they can. And at the same time, trying to track what they can't limit. This is just one more step along the way. "See something, Say something".

I'm sorry Redneck, I'm gonna have to turn you in. Paying cash. Impatient. Dissenting remarks. Knowing too much. Sounds like a terrorist to me.

The enemy is us folks.

edit on 30-12-2010 by Klassified because: Oops. Correction.

You've hit the nail on the head.
Nothing more here then the Governments fear of its own people. What ITS people can do to them IF we get upset at THEIR actions.