New York union guilty of murder (depraved indifference)

reply to post by Cablespider


So far, there has been two unsubstatiated claims.

First the paper quoted the politician.

Second another paper substantiated it by other components. Sucks to be you if you are NY union.

reply to post by andrewh7


Making the assumption that you are being forthright about your profession, I have a question. Wouldn't there be the possibility of a gross negligence action - even if just civil, against the union in question, if not specific members of it, in this case?

Saltheart and I don't agree often on issues - but on this one I think we have similar concerns. People died as the result of the behaviors of others and there, in my opinion, should be culpability for their actions.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


I have to agree with Heff, this would be the FIRST TIME he has ever agreed with me.

Better watch out Heff, you will be considered a traitor after this.

To me, a big problem.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by andrewh7

 

You have a blizzard condition, where EVERYONE knows that it is a dangerous condition. Evidence 1
You have people that is there job to clear the roads.-Evidendence 2
You have people that are told to purposefully told to not do their jobs.-Evidence 3
You have people that DIE due to emergency that could not get to them because of the lack of action.-Evidence 4


NOW- here is the FACTS OF LAW

"To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting. "

Just because YOU may not be able to get a conviction because you are a paid off component of the judicial system, does not mean I could not get them convicted.

By the way, how bout being destroyed by a non lawyer, how does that feel?

You haven't destroyed anything. You're some guy sitting at a computer in a basement with a wikipedia window open. I just told you that novel application of the law is based on legal precedent or legislative notes. Yet, you repeatedly quote the statute without offering any support for your extreme interpretation. Repeating a statutory definition is like walking into a civil rights case with nothing more than a copy of the US constitution - it's lazy and dumb. You continue to parrot partisan propaganda spouted out by the New York Post. Secondhand anonymous accusations printed by a newspaper are not evidence. You apparently don't even have a copy of the Constitution or you would know about the Confrontation Clause.

If "everyone" knew it was an emergency, why didn't everyone's representatives, the Mayor and the Governor of New York, declare a State of Emergency, shutting down schools, telling all non-emergency vehicles to stay off the roads, and bringing in buckets of FEMA money to hire a fleet of snow plows or bring in the national guard to assist with snow removal.

Pennsylvania's Governor did it in February of 2010. www.post-gazette.com...

Gov. Ed Rendell has dispatched the National Guard to Pittsburgh and Allegheny County to assist fire, ambulance and police as public works crews continue to clear the streets of the nearly two feet of snow that fell across the region Friday and Saturday, felling hundreds of trees and pulling down electrical wires.

Kevin Evanto, a county spokesman, said the disaster emergency declaration enables the county and municipalities to take all necessary actions to address storm-related issues, including bypassing standard procurement and contract procedures to hire temporary workers, rent equipment, and purchase supplies and materials.
Read more: www.post-gazette.com...

reply to post by andrewh7


Since earlier that YOU attempted to state you were a lawyer, I guess you LIED.

Funny how things go, but you have NOT addressed the issue.

Oh well, that is typical. Just do what you do.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by andrewh7

 

Making the assumption that you are being forthright about your profession, I have a question. Wouldn't there be the possibility of a gross negligence action - even if just civil, against the union in question, if not specific members of it, in this case?

Saltheart and I don't agree often on issues - but on this one I think we have similar concerns. People died as the result of the behaviors of others and there, in my opinion, should be culpability for their actions.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

~Heff

First off, thank you for being polite. As I stated, I am a lawyer from Michigan and state laws tend to vary. We were previously discussing criminal charges. A civil case is a whole different story. If you wanted to bring such a case, the first thing you would want to research is the applicability of sovereign immunity. Sovereign immunity would most likely insulate the snow plow officials, as government employees, from ordinary negligence as long as it took place in the course of their employment. Attempting to argue gross negligence would be only option . I have a lot of experience with this as I have had to sue the City of Detroit for the "gross negligence" of their bus drivers. If your initial complaint only argues ordinary negligence, your case will be dismissed really quick.

Now, a common mistake people tend to make is letting the damages in a civil case override the actual negligence. That is, the fact that a death occurred alleged as a result of the negligence is irrelevant to establishing successfully the other legal elements of gross negligence: Legal duty, Breach of that Duty, Proximate Cause, and Injury. If your showing of factors 1-3 is insufficient for a lawsuit related to a broken leg, then they are going to be equally insufficient for one resulting in death. So, don't get hung up on the injury.

The estate of the deceased person would have to show the snow plow guys owed the injured party a duty, that the duty was blatantly and indifferently breached by extreme recklessness, and that breach was the proximate cause of the injury. This is more difficult when you are arguing that inaction rather than action was proximate cause. The injury has to be reasonably foreseeable.

The mayor can pass blame however he wants but if a civil lawsuit were to take place, it would be the City of New York as the Defendant. Hence, it would probably be in the best interests of the mayor not to throw public employees under the bus.

So, civil case a fair chance of success but I wouldn't be so optimistic about a criminal one.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by andrewh7

 

Since earlier that YOU attempted to state you were a lawyer, I guess you LIED.

Funny how things go, but you have NOT addressed the issue.

Oh well, that is typical. Just do what you do.

I didn't attempt to state I was a lawyer. I stated I was a lawyer because I am a lawyer in the State of Michigan. I practice No-Fault (Auto) Law and personal injury. I got an undergraduate degree in psychology from U of Michigan. I took the LSAT, went to law school for three years, took the bar exam, passed the bar exam, got sworn in by Chief Judge of the Oakland County Circuit Court, paid my yearly bar dues of approximately $350, and was issued a bar card.

The greatest perk - I am allowed to take a cell phone into the Oakland County Circuit Court whereas you would have to walk all the way back to your car to put yours away before being admitted.

I indicated to you that my opinion was that the criminal case would be unsuccessful but felt that damages might be awarded in a civil suit provided you could argue gross negligence to overcome the issue of sovereign immunity.

reply to post by andrewh7


So, it was New Years and the rum was probably speaking the most.

You are a specialized attorney in civil cases right? Is not criminal completely different. Yes, I understand precedent, where you find a relevant case history and apply that to the current trial.

Tell me, has there ever been a case where a defendant was charged in say like a corporation, where they knew that their product was causing harm, and then were charged with a crime for their inaction?

I do not have access to the databases created for attorneys. I am sure the parameters could be just plugged into a database and the relevant cases brought up. I am sure there are these types of databases. Everyone else has them, do the lawyers? I do not have the time to look into it, but I am sure you have all the time in the world right?

Sorry, I was debating the presenter instead of the presented. Later.

reply to post by stealthc

hey they think it's all fun and games, but low and behold if you gotta do things that are unsafe and that is what you have to do for your job, then you are owed something extra for having to do unsafe things. I as a worker don't mind doing unsafe things, but that costs extra and it is entirely up to me if I do it, plain and simple. I am a rigger, osha tries to apply to me but the very nature of my job pits the responsibility of my own skin, onto me and those whom I trust enough to perform my work with. I love doing unsafe things, but that is also because I get rewarded for it. You take away those rewards and I go on strike. Simple as that. So yes while you looking on the outside looking in think it's all fun and games that's great--but the guy asking me if I worked there and I had any idea how easy it is, hasn't worked there either so I don't get the point. I would imagine the poster I am replying to knows more than either of us and he says the city is a slave driver -- after experiencing government first hand I wouldn't put anything past them either. Workers have the right to strike, union or no union, if you die because you are dependent on the system then that is your own bloody fault. The system fails people all the time, only an idiot would trust their lives to it.

Nyc workers that are in a union cannot strike under the Taylor Law. Our union gets fined everyday that we go on strike. I have been working for 10 years at my job, and only got 3 raises in that time. The city wont give us a contract, so we work without one until the city and the union finally settle on one, and that alone can take years. BUT we cant go on strike at any time.

We definitely dont get paid extra for doing more risky work, the only thing we get is the fact we still have a job. And THAT'S WHAT THEY TELL US! If I were to call the union, which I have done on many different occasions, last being when I heard about the Mayor's Executive Order put into effect, that was their first and only response, "Be happy you still have a job".

Have you ever been told at your job that you have to work 10% out of your title? and your a union worker? I've never fell into that but you see it happening all over from workers who didnt know any better. And when you call the union about it, they always say they have to look into it. They've been looking into for years already.

Some new information has come out.

10-12% of the union called in sick.
One group of workers were seen buying beer and sitting in their car for the entire shift.

Nope, could NOT have been a work slow down huh? Idiocy.

New Video on New York response and more evidence of the slowdown.

www.breitbart.tv...

Saltheart it seems you were right on the money with this one. This news report starts out with the words "criminal investigation...". Seems more information is coming out about the work slow down, including workers that spent 11 hours at a Dunkin Donuts. Some are reporting they were told to "take their time, city hall does not care about them".

reply to post by OneisOne


I hope they go for the whole enchilada. Time to make people responsible for their actions.

Thanks for the video.

Update, now the feds have launched an investigation into the New York unions actions-

mystateline.com...

I wonder if it is to protect the union or to actually go after possible criminal actions. We'll see. Keep subscribed for further deveopments. This is the SHFF network.

For the record:

I was incorrect in assuming there was no credence to this thread. The OP was, in fact, correct as evidenced by pending investigation.

I apologize for my haste in dismissing the idea. I was wrong and can live with that. Life would be pretty boring if we went around always being right. I am sorry SSFF, I applaud your courage of conviction.

In the words of one of my favorite writers:

“Whatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong. There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right. To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Good for them! Organized labor is what makes this country great. Blue collar men and women can work hard for a respectable wage and proper benefits.

This country needs to stop persecuting the unions and realize that the unions are simply fighting for what they deserve.
Blue collar people are not lower on the totem pole and they should be paid for busting their rear and building this country.