A True Christian Can Not Believe in Evolution !

reply to post by Bendii

So many threads of people searching for the truth of God. Or what God is ,what God has done or didn't do. Many replies are people desperate to believe what the Bible says literally. Why does it matter to you so much that God do something in a certain amount of time? Is because you feel you will lose faith if God does not do like you want?

It's quite simple. If God was lying in Genesis and Exodus especially, when saying He created to Earth in 6 days, then you cannot believe Him to be truthful when He discusses salvation in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

reply to post by Seed76

Sorry! did not mean to offend you..did not realize I had pointed it out to you...... And I meant to hit the 4...Sorry. Did not edit my post.

reply to post by Bendii

Sorry! did not mean to offend you..did not realize I had pointed it out to you...... And I meant to hit the 4...Sorry. Did not edit my post.

You do not have to apologize man. You did not offended me. My reply was for another poster. So do not worry at all.

Oh btw, welcome to the ATS Family

Peace

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No, #1 is a true premise. There is an entirely different thread on that issue, in fact you can find links to a thread that contains plenty of evidence in my signature, the same thread is found here, it's entitled "Evolution: PROVE IT!".

There is also a thread that is entirely open to falsifications of evolution in my signature, link can also be found here, it's entitled "Evolution: FALSIFY IT!"

Now, unless you can provide me with what a definition of 'macroevolution' is...I'm guessing you mean speciation, which we have repeatedly observed, I cannot address your points. Of course, there are two threads that are far more suited for this discussion.

Oh, and why didn't you address the points I made relating to scripture? Jesus gets science wrong in two instances and the thread relies on a discussion of divorce taken out of context.

Im no Christian, but if I would be called anything its spiritual. This reminds me of when people used to tell me in grade school "you either believe in God and that he created the Earth, or you believe in evolution and not God." Now that you get older and look at every single thing there is to look at and research, whether its science or psuedoscience or whatever, the puzzle pieces begin to fit. I believe in a God or spiritual existence after death, but I do not believe this Earth was created in 6 days, or 10,000 years. I believe in evolution, it's pretty straightforward and isn't hard to prove. That doesn't mean you can't believe in something else though, even if you are religious. I believe this Earth is millions of years old at least, and that God in a sense created the universe because he/we are the Universe. God (which in my opinion is creation and existence itself) stemmed from the Universe, and everything to come in existence was in a sense his work. That's just one of my opinions, don't know if it's right or not, but either way I believe in an afterlife existence because of things i've researched and experienced myself that I know for 100% fact wasn't an "over-reactive imagination" as some would say. Because really when you begin to look at existence, creation and the Universe itself as a whole and think of all of the things that may be or are possible within it and some theories that astrophysicist have that would be/or is insane, it's not to hard to believe there could be an afterlife realm. Once you begin to see the Universe itself, compared to this tiny planet and the creatures on it, it seems pretty magical.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Perhaps you can remember the river...

There is a torrential river somewhere in africa (i want to say the congo), where due to largely unknown causes (theories suggest the speed of the river, coupled with the depth, and debris causing pockets) where severe adaptations have taken place within hundreds of feet of one another. The variance in iterations is truly astounding.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, #1 is a true premise. There is an entirely different thread on that issue, in fact you can find links to a thread that contains plenty of evidence in my signature, the same thread is found here, it's entitled "Evolution: PROVE IT!".

There is also a thread that is entirely open to falsifications of evolution in my signature, link can also be found here, it's entitled "Evolution: FALSIFY IT!"

Now, unless you can provide me with what a definition of 'macroevolution' is...I'm guessing you mean speciation, which we have repeatedly observed, I cannot address your points. Of course, there are two threads that are far more suited for this discussion.

Oh, and why didn't you address the points I made relating to scripture? Jesus gets science wrong in two instances and the thread relies on a discussion of divorce taken out of context.

Absolutely false. There has never been an observed instance of one species changing to a different species. There are NUMEROUS examples of variations within a species. You cannot use these examples (Evolution) and immediately declare molecules to man Evolution exists. Flies always bring forth more flies, dogs more dogs, horses more horse, fish more fish. There is no verified instance of the "Evolution" you speak of.

Your argument is the fallacy of equivocation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Again ..I apologize...I wasn't aware that 24 hours or 7 days was in existence then. But I love reading the bible and learning of other beliefs. I think the bible like so many other belief systems are a collection of stories that are handed down. To each culture, it is their comfort.
I definitely believe in God. Look around you. The Earth and the Universe are such wonders. Look at each other. Life is magic. Do you not think God can not make it right in the end? It is that simple.
I am so sorry if I offend you. The God I know is so much more, than the one in the bible. He is not a God of war. He does not lead soldiers into battle against each other. he does not kill his own children for disobedience. Even a good human parent won't do that!

Originally posted by Bendii
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Again ..I apologize...I wasn't aware that 24 hours or 7 days was in existence then. But I love reading the bible and learning of other beliefs. I think the bible like so many other belief systems are a collection of stories that are handed down. To each culture, it is their comfort.

God says plainly in Exodus 20:11 that He created in 6 literal days. To believe otherwise is to believe the God of the Bible is a liar. Secondly, the bible says man's sin brought death into the world. How can there be millions of years of Evolution which relies on death before Adam's sin which brought death as a punishment? Evolution and Creation are opposed on every single aspect bar none. To "ride the fence" on the two is a rejection of the Bible account.

I definitely believe in God. Look around you. The Earth and the Universe are such wonders. Look at each other. Life is magic. Do you not think God can not make it right in the end? It is that simple.
I am so sorry if I offend you. The God I know is so much more, than the one in the bible. He is not a God of war. He does not lead soldiers into battle against each other. he does not kill his own children for disobedience. Even a good human parent won't do that!

I agree your god would never do those things.

He cannot, he doesn't exist.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Absolutely false. There has never been an observed instance of one species changing to a different species.

No, the correct formatting would be that 'absolutely false' would refer to your statement. Here is one set of examples of observed speciation while another is found here.

I didn't even have to use Google, because I've provided these resources since...I think my first year on ATS was when I first posted it.

There are NUMEROUS examples of variations within a species. You cannot use these examples (Evolution) and immediately declare molecules to man Evolution exists.

You've actually made a mistake. Molecules have nothing to do with evolution. They've got plenty to do with abiogenesis, but that's a different topic. We're talking about evolution. Now, the truth that variations within species occurs does leas to the observations of species change.

Flies always bring forth more flies,

Are an order, not a species. Admittedly, it'll take time to observe members of Diptera evolving into a different order. Of course, that's what happens once you look at the Linean classification:

The classification of the common house fly can be found here Source

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Arthropoda
Class: Insecta
Order: Diptera
Section: Schizophora
Family: Muscidae
Genus: Musca
Species: M. domestica

So yes, that's a lot of change.

dogs more dogs,

Canis lupus familiaris.

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Subspecies: C. l. familiaris

Source

Now, you're talking about subspecies change, which is on an entirely different level. In italics is the level at which you were talking about change in flies. Hell, we know that dogs won't always produce dogs because we got dogs from wolves.

So you clearly are unaware of taxonomy.

horses more horse,

Define what you mean by horse. Common domesticated horses? Wild horses? Do zebras count as horses?

fish more fish.

Ok, now you're just arguing at the clade/phylum level. You're pushing the goal posts back. Evolution is simply the change in allele frequency over successive generations. It allows for speciation, which I've provided evidence of.

There is no verified instance of the "Evolution" you speak of.

I've already provided it. Of course, you'd like to see single generation evolution across phyla and order...so you either don't understand classifications or have some issue grasping what evolution means.

Your argument is the fallacy of equivocation.

No, it is an argument from evidence. Your argument, on the other hand, is the argument from ignorance of biological sciences.

And what's more, you've failed to acknowledge my point that Jesus has gotten science wrong before yet again.

Originally posted by Vio1ion
How can faith in the story of Creation have something to do with faith in God ?

I personally believe that science might be the right tool to appreciate the almighty complexity of God.

the same science that used to drill holes into peoples heads, the same science that still places electrodes on depressed patients and zaps their brains beyond repair.

or the same science that is basically clueless on 99.9% of the stuff they study in their respective fields.

if you put a chimpanzee in a lab coat, it's already on par with a nobel winning scientist in the understanding of the universe.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


God exists in a timeless realm. In God's eyes, all of creation from beginning to end happens all at once. When God put the plan in motion from the smallest microbial plant life beginnings, he knew that man would soon walk the earth and they would be male and female.

But the questions is, "does it really matter?"
To be a Christian, do you really have to believe everything the bible says?
Can you not just accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and be done with it.
I believe I can accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and not even believe anything the entire bible says except passages related directly to Jesus and who HE is, and still be safe.
Furthermore, what does it really mean to have Jesus in your heart? To you. Is it just an affirmation saying, "Jesus, come into my heart" and with those magic words your soul is save from hell? Or upon saying those words do you not have to try to be as close to being like Jesus as your finite human brain can allow? For if you truly believed in Jesus, TRULY, wouldn't you know that having him in you heart is just that. If Jesus was in anyone's heart, TRULY, they would be living a life like the one Jesus showed us to live. An affirmation at one point in time where you may have felt overwhelmed with the holy spirit is only the beginning. If you don't go from there and try to live as much like Jesus as you possibly can, then you are no more saved than a murderer sitting in jail who said those words at one time, meant them, and turned towards a selfish life and never came back.

Self Sacrifice
Love
Peace
Mercy
Honesty
Serving others
etc.

But most importantly Self Sacrifice in service to others. That is the way, the truth, and the life and no one will go to the father except by these qualities, Which are the qualities of Jesus Christ. You can bet your ass that this is the truth.

To be built in the image of god does not imply perfection does it? God created the earth in how many days? Why is it that so many do not see that "god" is not done with us....we are not perfected...thus he will contuinue to sing to our soul(god as a master musician...matches well with quantuum field vibration concepts). Most evolutionist think in line with darwin(darwinsTHEORY of evolution)...but what if Darwin was deaf to the song of the father???

If we accept more modern ideas about vibration/energy within our area of the universe boosting our dna output...its kinda like "god" or the "quantuum field" is gettign ready for the chorus....we are currently in the bridge of the musical piece...

And I am not going to tell god HE CAN"T MAKE ME DANCE differently when the time comes.....

I hope this annology helps merge a few points of many......

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No one is saying God is a liar! And this debate will go on and on. My Dad said to never get into a debate over religion or politics. He was right. The writers of the Bible saw God as their God, for them only. One who leads them in war against their enemies. One who helped defeat their enemies. The enemies were also God's children. He loves all his children., right. God is love. The history and politics of those times were brutal. Everyone needed God for themselves and not their enemies. I am so sorry..but the bible portrays God in a very negative way. Jesus portrayed him different.
Say what you wish..that is what this site is for. May God bless you....

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Bendii

 

So many threads of people searching for the truth of God. Or what God is ,what God has done or didn't do. Many replies are people desperate to believe what the Bible says literally. Why does it matter to you so much that God do something in a certain amount of time? Is because you feel you will lose faith if God does not do like you want?

It's quite simple. If God was lying in Genesis and Exodus especially, when saying He created to Earth in 6 days, then you cannot believe Him to be truthful when He discusses salvation in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

I see.
So proof that any statement in the bible is scientificlly inaccurate is proof that the promise of salvation cannot be trusted?

It's wonderful to realise how much true believers like you have in common with my atheist friends. They completely agree with you on this.


Tell me about that famous ruminant, the hare, again?

I find this thread a bit taxing on my mind but here goes. My father's favorite quote from the bible was "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." If you take this literally it means that if your rich you won't go into heaven but with a little research you find that the eye of a needle is the reference to the tiny entrances about 2 by 3 feet that were put into walls of towns like Jeruselum that in time attack camels were forced to kneel down to get through these entrances so outside people could enter the walls and be protected.. A very difficult task but not impossible.Thus it is possible for a rich man to enter the gates but very hard to.The bible is written in many languages,including latin,hebrew and ariamaic and each culture had their own euthanism and own sayings. Translating them into our modern toungue is often difficult and misleading. That's like us going back in time and saying Jesus was cool. Well nowadays cool means many different things but back in those days it meant cold. If you take the bible literally( a word I have never found in the bible) your missing the point. Without the education and "science" and archeology is science you will never truly understand what is being taught to you. That is why most religous leaders tell you to have faith and not question because then they can mold you into what they believe and which can prevent you from being closer to god.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


A TRUE Christian doesn't try to minimize god and put him into a tiny box....God can do anything...But you are trying to claim he can't.That means you are against god....
No human can hold the knowledge and power of god in their tiny little mind...If you say you KNOW his plan then it's not God's plan you're espousing....
God is like a firehose...our brains...like thimbles....
Your attempt to belittle god....FAIL.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


You are presupposing to know exactly what process God used to create this planet and all the animals on it.

How do you know that evolution isn't the exact tool that God set in motion?

You can quote scripture all you want, but remember those tomes have been filtered through thousands of years of people reproducing them and interpreting them according to their preconceptions, their personal goals and the instructions of their king or pope.

OK taxing is right....too all those that site 6 days creation....how long is gods day? You really think 24 hours?? As vast as he/she/it is in comparison to us....i suspect the lenght of his day may be equally vast....LOST IN TRANSLATION perhaps....a day of god is 24 hours because we decided 24 hours in a day for us? LMAO....one day for the sun is 33 of ours....step up the ratio to god size....his day is more like 2443215193475195691843765643761345941395461327562137460326473264081732 HOURS.....that is a random number....no calculations to credit me with on that 1..... LMAO

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

As Christians we don't have the luxury of picking and choosing what we like and dislike, or agree with or disagree with that is printed in the bible, especially if Jesus said it.

It would appear that you are correct -

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets." Jesus, Matthew 5:17

It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17