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ATS The Site We Love to Hate

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posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 11:19 PM
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There are times I come to ATS to debate certain topics, but in the midst of a debate find myself trying to convince people that have almost zero logical reasoning skills, this is not a slight, but merely an observation.

Now while I do not fault individuals for this, I believe basic logic and argumentative skills are in order for the purpose of sounding credible, maybe we can fault of our educational system for not instilling the tools much needed in every facet of life. Most colleges offer a basic Logic 101 course, which I highly recommend, after which most people will have enough to debate with proper skills, understanding and forming a valid argument.

I am thankful I am not a politician, but I know the best political figures, MSM, religious leaders, large corporations understand and know logic inside and out, allowing them the capability to manipulate reasoning, giving their arguments the appearance of being valid and sounding logical, but in fact are flawed.

When people present their premises/facts here on ATS, many times we find flaws in the arguments based solely on the structure and conclusions, this is basic logic 101.

There are also those that will argue in a circular format which is also considered, invalid.

And then those that will appeal to what is called "blind ignorance", hence the ATS motto "Deny Ignorance"

In conclusion, I feel that trying to reasonably argue a point with invalid logic is pointless, thus bringing me to the title of the thread "ATS the Site We Love to Hate" Many times people think they have won an argument here on ATS because they get no response from the party they are debating, when in reality the other person/or party saw they did not have the proper tools to continue to debate properly and bowed out.

So the next time someone starts to argue in fashion that does not adhere to basic logic, point them to this thread and maybe they will get the hint.


edit on 28-12-2010 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 11:30 PM
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I tend not to get involved in back and forth type exchanges if I can help it, the original post remains whether the person you are debating with understands it or not and I really don't usually see the point in repeating something if it wasn't understood or was ignored in the first instance.

Hopefully other people reading the thread will get your point though and it may make some impact on their thoughts or contribution to the thread.

Some people do seem to think that the last person to post wins.



posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by davespanners
 


Dave,

When people get emotional logic goes out the window and that is understandable, but at some point logic and reason needs to prevail to resolve the issue.

The quote I now live by.




Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by Realtruth
reply to post by davespanners
 


Dave,

When people get emotional logic goes out the window and that is understandable, but at some point logic and reason needs to prevail to resolve the issue.

The quote I now live by.




Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.





but who determins the fool ?

which doctrine shows characteristics of a "foolish person"?

i like the quote . but when do you know if your the fool or the other party ? lol

What happens when both accuse of being fools lol



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by seedofchucky
 



Chucky that is the point.

If you argue long enough without logic, then both people look like idiots with no direction, hence the quote.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 05:32 AM
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reply to post by Realtruth
 


Never argue with morons

You dont have as much experience as them



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 07:16 AM
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reply to post by Realtruth
 


Logic can't be learnt...

Besides, what's logical to me may not be logical to you.

I'll give you a case study (with video!!!)

First, watch the video.



Now, to me what this guy is doing is completely illogical and stupid, right?

We can all agree on this.

So why didn't he come to this conclusion?

Why didn't the people around him come to this conclusion?

To him, what he was doing was the most logical way of doing the job.

Now apply that to forums like ATS.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by Chadwickus
 





OK, that is hysterical, but don't mix logic up with common sense.

And btw I always enjoy reading your posts, since you do use logic.

Some people will do this almost instinctively, but their is a mathematical approach to it, in fact lawyers and politicians will use it to see if someone is lying, even if they do not know what the subject is.

What I speak of is called Syllogistic logic, many people do not know this even exists or have studied it in depth, but I have seen huge transformation in people that lack critical thinking once they mastered this symbolistic approach.

But I agree to a certain extent some people do lack the ability possibly to grasp or learn skills like this and many times this is not their fault, but more of a learning disability.

I am of the school of thought that if given a chance, time and proper education many people would be able to see through the BS that is fed to them on a daily basis, but I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by Realtruth
 


Never argue with morons morans

You dont have as much experience as them


There, fixed it for ya




posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Realtruth
reply to post by davespanners
 


Dave,

When people get emotional logic goes out the window and that is understandable, but at some point logic and reason needs to prevail to resolve the issue.

The quote I now live by.




Never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.




Excuse my intrusion here, but i would also add the following word



Adaptation.




posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by Realtruth
 


Syllogistic logic, I'm intrigued now, I can't say I've heard of it.

So this would be on a different vein to problem solving, which is probably where I was heading last night...



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by Realtruth
 


Whoa, whoa, whoa with all the technical terminology there hoss! I'm so lost... so very lost... we are supposed to debate and follow rules and stuff???

FFS the person who directed me to ATS told me this was the new beta for Chatbot and that I could just say whatever came to mind...


~Heff



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


Heff even if new rules applied you would still break them.


Your out of the club for posting that blasphemous YMCA picture too.






posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:11 AM
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When people present their premises/facts here on ATS, many times we find flaws in the arguments based solely on the structure and conclusions, this is basic logic 101.


Every member has not been educated in logical fallacies, critical thinking, etc. Even those of us who have had it in college curriculums, etc. sometimes still resort to straw man tactics, etc. often without realizing it.

There will be a wide range, from those who could sell ice to an Eskimo, to those who cannot be swayed due to blind faith in an issue.

It's just par for the course.


So why didn't he come to this conclusion?

Why didn't the people around him come to this conclusion?


How could ANY of them not see what was going to happen here?




edit on 30-12-2010 by Gazrok because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


Garzok,



I would have to agree, it seems blind faith and emotions play a huge part in losing our ability to reason.

Given the fact we have time to read things over here on ATS is a plus, but again, I will agree that when certain people want to believe something so badly, that even when presented with sensible facts and information there absolutely nothing that will change their minds, hence "Blind Faith".

It would also be nice to see this as a part of middle and high school curriculum, since logic/critical thinking applies to every facet of our daily lives, but I don't think this will happen any time soon.



edit on 30-12-2010 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by Realtruth
 


Now, to me what this guy is doing is completely illogical and stupid, right?



I dunno sir, it looks like a very efficient/logical way of going about mating a tree trunk with a wee truck.

Can't wait to see the offspring...they are going to be so cute.

PS- The tree is not a playa, it just crushes a lot.



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