I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

Originally posted by blupblup
Again... ALL for FREE.

Ah, but that's the problem. Some say FREE health care is a RIGHT, or should be, but how can such a RIGHT be EQUAL for ALL? Socialized health care is not and can never be a right that would be shared by all, if it were, then who would be left to pay? How can something be a RIGHT for some and NOT (or even a BURDEN) for others? That doesn't sound very moral or nice or fair. Sounds almost sinful.

Anyhow, would you think it too much to expect that maybe you should have had to sell your computer and home entertainment system to pay for that care (you can always buy another later, right?) instead of having to revert to involuntary servitude to pay for all that? Why should someone else have to pay for that if you had the means (i.e. sell all your stuff, pay over time)? Paying your own expenses instead of expecting FREE might make ya feel better inside as a human too.

I suppose socialized food is next? Food is just as important for our continued health and existence too. Gee, maybe we should all stop working so hard if all this stuff is gonna be free. Hum, I'll have to reconsider this socialist thang, it sounds like an easy ride, sure beats having to work extra hard and having to save for a rainy day .. especially when those new toys keep going on sale at the iToy store all the time, ha. And it sure beats having to sell my spiffy stereo to pay my doctor bills when my liver goes bad from years of drinking too, ha. Damn, lets all start smoking, FREE will pay for the consequences. Cool, man .. socialism is gonna pay for all our sins, ha.

Well, it's time for a sausage pizza and a pitcher of beer and a nice big cigar afterwards .. seeing that if I'm gonna be forced to be a commie, well hell, that means no personal consequences for ME ME ME ... arhar har har har ...

(socialism, a.k.a. FREE ... what a scam, ha)

Originally posted by Shamanistical
Ah, but that's the problem. Some say FREE health care is a RIGHT, or should be, but how can such a RIGHT be EQUAL for ALL? Socialized health care is not and can never be a right that would be shared by all, if it were, then who would be left to pay?

Well it IS a right.... in a civilised and developed nation, let me know when you get there ok?

Also we pay national insurance, about 11.8 % of our wages, to fund the NHS, so not actually free.... but a damn sight cheaper than the figures I've seen and heard about over there.

So we all pay and we all benefit..... an alien concept to you I'm sure, as I said, It's the done thing in most civilised countries, there's a big list a few pages back, check it out.

Anyhow, would you think it too much to expect that maybe you should have had to sell your computer and home entertainment system to pay for that care (you can always buy another later, right?) instead of having to revert to involuntary servitude to pay for all that?

Na, why would I sell stuff to pay for my healthcare?

That's insane.... barbaric in fact.....

"Here, I'll trade you my stereo and my car for a new kidney" (not actually like that I know, but effectively the same thing)

Sick, sick people.

Paying your own expenses instead of expecting FREE might make ya feel better inside as a human too.

Really.... well I guess with all my bills for transport, home and all the rest.... I know about paying my way.
Not sure about making feel better as a human, I find helping others and being nice to people is a much better way.... That's just me I guess.

Hum, I'll have to reconsider this socialist thang, it sounds like an easy ride, sure beats having to work extra hard and having to save for a rainy day ..

Well that's pretty good too.
Saving is fine... everyone has expenditure, no matter what country they live in.

We probably have higher tax and VAT.... god knows.... I'm sure it balances out somewhere.

But yeah.... that's fine, if you enjoy spending all your savings to visit your doctor or having to prioritise your illnesses due to funding... then that's fine and you like it... cool.

Land of the free and all that...... stand on your own two feet..... blah blah..

reply to post by blupblup


Why does everyone seem to make "illness" out to be like something unique when it comes to our existence and survival? Hum? Every piece of logic that the socialists have used to enslave others unfairly and involuntarily could also apply to food care, house care, clothing care, a new car care (well hell, ya needs something to get you around to all that free stuff or we'll all die too, ha).

Listen, I have plenty of compassion for a child that has cancer by no fault of their own and that kind of stuff, but here in America we have way to many very unhealthy fat people, something like 1/3rd of us Americans are wide body couch potato boozers .. and until THAT changes I will have no part of anything socialist. No, no way will I be turned into a freaking slave by those that DEMAND I pay their bills. Sorry, but you socialists will have to learn to manage without my involuntary cooperation. I know, it sucks, but try to get over it, okay, then I won't have to start toss commies off the planet whenever they try to put their grubby hands all over me and in my pockets, gawd, that's so creepy, ha.

reply to post by Shamanistical




I don't need your cooperation or anything from you?

I live in a country that has a nationalised healthcare system... why do I need your help, input or advice on that?

I was merely stating, with my post about my trip to the hospital, that In my humble opinion, it's the best system.

You don't see it that way and don't want to pay for fat,lazy people.... that's fine... that's not my business.


Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Originally posted by blupblup
Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Different core moral beliefs I would say. I was raised to believe "involuntary" servitude is evil, a sin. There is a huge difference between charity and slavery, a huge moral difference. A big difference between asking for help and DEMANDING it via law, agency, and deadly enforcement.

reply to post by Shamanistical




The thing is, most Brits actually like and wanted the system we have now... our system wasn't always like this.
It was fought for and changed so that everyone was treated and looked after equally.

You can say we are forced and so on... we don't see it that way, and not because we're sheep either, but because we like helping one another... seriously.

We don't have that "I look after myself and my family and screw you all" mentality..... we just don't.

The vast majority in the UK love the NHS.

It has helped me throughout my life many times, might say saved it a few

Paying a small percentage of my wages towards a system that works for everyone is fine.

I've heard some figures of $300-800 dollars a month for healthcare over there??

I mean what the heck is that about?

That's scandalous...

And all so some big pharma and private insurance companies can make a buck.... great


And you say that WE are held to ransom and forced (with deadly? force) to pay.

Anyway, this argument has been had soooooo many times on here and It's kinda boring.

You don't want socialism, it's evil.... it rapes people.... blah blah.

You look after you and **** everyone else.

Fat countrymen..... yadda yadda.

Cheers

Originally posted by Shamanistical
Anyhow, would you think it too much to expect that maybe you should have had to sell your computer and home entertainment system to pay for that care (you can always buy another later, right?) instead of having to revert to involuntary servitude to pay for all that?

This naivete of yours leaves me completely astounded. I, for one, have a relatively cheap computer and a dated home theater (which works just fine for me). I can' possibly fetch any amount of decent cash if I sell the whole contents of my house.

We have 2 kids. For medical reasons (position of the fetus), my wife had to have C-sections both times. An absolutely normal, run of the mill C-section and recovery in the local hospital has a 30 grand price tag, not counting anesthesia. What the heck are you thinking with that silly "entertainment system" that is supposed to cover all that?

Originally posted by maybereal11
Your whole rant is like a case study for fact check.

I doubt you even know what "fact check" means.

Originally posted by maybereal11

The gov doesn't decide what insurance you choose.

Really?... so the government will not be FORCING Americans to buy healthcare insurance, and that healthcare insurance doesn't need to have what the Obama care bill says it must have?...

In page 426 you find the following.

14 (b) DISREGARD OF PAYMENTS FOR MANDATORY EX
15 PANDED ENROLLMENT.—Section 1108(g)(4) of such Act (42
16 U.S.C. 1308(g)(4)) is amended—
...

frwebgate.access.gpo.gov...:h3590eas.txt.pdf

Originally posted by maybereal11

end of life counseling doesn't tell docs or patients what to do.

It doesn't even require that anybody have end of life counseling.

In HR 3200 you can even find for example in pages 424-426 that if a person hasn't had such a consultation within 5 years the consultation must include end of life benefits to the "consumer" and family.
candicemiller.house.gov...

Starting on page 431, “Expansion of Physician Quality Reporting Initiative for End of Life Care”, makes end of life consultation a reportable pay for performance measure for every doctor providing services to Medicare patients.

“Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.”

Page 432
candicemiller.house.gov...

It also states.

..the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for lifesustaining treatment.

candicemiller.house.gov...

The secretary of health and human services is given a lot of power to change, and to force whatever she sees fit without consulting patients, and without asking for any medical opinion. In fact the term by the secretary is included 179 times in the bill. For example "the secretary shall determine, shall decide," etc.

Who REALLY Controls Obamacare Details?
www.youtube.com...#!

Yet you want to claim the government will have no power over healthcare?...

Originally posted by maybereal11
It makes the choice available for patients and families and pays the doc for the consult through medicare..if the patient chooses.
It's entirely up to the patient. How is knowing your choices and outcomes a bad thing vs. letting docs and hospitals have thier way with you during your final weeks/months.

Does the patient chooses when or why the secretary can make choices and enforce such choices? No...

The patient can make choices when you are FORCED to buy the healthcare insurance the government wants because it must abide by the regulations in the bill?... No...

As your condition progresses, meaning as you get worse, you have to get more "end of life consultation", and since the doctors have to abide by the enforced decision of the government, doctors with no conscience or who want to keep their jobs will have to explain to you that it might be better for your family if you don't get any more treatments, or get an operation which could help you or even save you, just because "it is too expensive"...

but yeah the "consumer" will have a lot of choices heh?...

BTW, you want to see a clear example of when Obama lied about thehealthcare reform bill?...

www.youtube.com...

Obama claimed abortion was not included, yet he lied...

$94,688.25! I got a bill for ya!

My dad had abdominal aortic anuerysm stenting done at Ocshner's Hospital in New Orleans Decmber 13. We got his bill in the mail today: $94,688.25. The pharmacy bill was $2114.2550. The surgeon's fee was $28,858.00.
The room charge was $5,844.00, Lab $2,063.00, radiology $2941.00, anasthesia $3,612.00, respiratory services $153.00

The "medical supplies" bill was $49,103.00!

Tell me there is not a problem with healthcare costs. Not that we aren't grateful that such a wonderful option is available. A few years ago he would have had to have his whole abdomen emptied and the aneurysm repaired. The survival rate wasn't so hot and the recovery time was a disaster! With the stenting they just went in thru his femoral arteries and fed the stent and the tools up to the aneurysm to repair it.

We would never begrudge Dr. Bazan his surgeon's fee. He is from Argentina and has trained at Johns-Hopkins and Harvard med. But that "med supplies" bill is complete and utter B.S.!

reply to post by jennybee35


When did I say there is no problem with the cost of healthcare?... I said the contrary, but instead of demanding for people to abide by another measure controlled by the government people should be able to have AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE instead...

What is wrong with affordable healthcare?...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
instead of demanding for people to abide by another measure controlled by the government people should be able to have AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE instead...

What is wrong with affordable healthcare?...

There is nothing wring with it, but there is a tremendous likelihood that these two issues are coupled, don't you think?

Providers and insurers DON'T want it to be affordable, they are after the bottom line and they are going to milk you well, to death (appropriately). You see, I can (and I do) go with an old model cellphone and things of that nature, but if I need a kidney transplant, I'm locked into the extortion scheme that you seem to like so much.

i am from canada and i think you would be mislead to believe that our healthcare is "free." our income tax rates would make your american heads spin, and hearts flutter. i would tell you what they are but i am afraid knowing would send you to the er with a heart attack. nothing in this world is free...

reply to post by mateocarms




Are these the rates?

www.cra-arc.gc.ca...


Doesn't seem that bad...

reply to post by buddhasystem


Well, seeing as the aneurysm is an inherited tendency, I guess their answer would be "He shouldna'
been born!"

Originally posted by blupblup
We don't have that "I look after myself and my family and ....

Yeah, so I hear. I suppose it's too much to expect of a human to look after themselves these days, huh? Were they never weaned off their mommy?

What a hopeless species, disgusting too. It's simply not right for any gang of humans to FORCE others to do stuff for them, especially personal stuff, like paying other peoples living expenses. That's simply immoral and I can't believe there are so many that can't see THAT.

I hope they make socialism voluntary here in the USA, otherwise I would have to curse them all for such immorality. I won't be forced into slavery so everyone can have FREE stuff. You should know that when stuff is FREE you'll always find it in short supply too and that doesn't sound good either. STUFF, be it food, clothing, health care, etc., should go to the highest bidder .. that's our incentive to work and save and buy health care before we buy computers and home entertainment centers. Take away that incentive and then what will you EVENTUALLY have?

How's the economy where you're at? Is your socialism still in the black or in the red YET?

OMG, I can feel the rope burns around my neck already .. after I've told masta to go bleep-himself when he comes with shackles to force me to pay my lazy drunken idiot neighbors bill for a new liver.

Unbelievable, the human race doesn't deserve to survive, not if unequal rights for all is their attitude. Icky species, they'll use and abuse anything in their desperate lame futile attempt to remain alive on this gawdforsaken world of yucky humans. I suppose when the food runs out you socialists will start eating humans next?

Oh man, this planet creeps me out. I may have to start a smuggling ring to help victimized wealthy people to freedom if socialism ever takes hold here in the USA, ha. But where can we go, where does freedom still exist, where, where do the moral ones go to escape bondage by the socialists ... where where where ???

reply to post by Shamanistical




You should show the quote in full....not cut it off to make it appear like something else.

You don't get it do you....


Nobody will come and FORCE you to pay for anyone else's medical bill.

It's taxes.... you have taxes right?

EVERYONE pays and EVERYONE benefits.

As I said, this argument is pointless.... especially when people don't listen/read and are completely ignorant of how these things work.

Thanks for the chat.

Originally posted by Shamanistical
Were they never weaned off their mommy?

Indeed! These bastards (human in general) may from time to time develop medical conditions (such as described a few posts up) that would leave them with the choice to either

a) die
b) bankrupt their families

and they have the nerve to complain about mere $94,000 in bills! What socialist sheeple are these people! We, the real patriots, should just be prepared to die from preventable decease or curable conditions, instead of being shackled by life-loving commies! Tar and feather these bastadrs!

what is it with people and this socialized this and that,

question : why do you even pay tax

female dogging about socialized medicine and paying taxes is hypocritical if anything, either you are part of something or your not which then ops for even more questions such as what on earth are you doing in a "country" in the first place ,

if anything the u.s has a socialized military and people are still being hypocritical about it all ,


the sky is falling and the red scare is still upon you