I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

I was unfortunate enough to witness a friend of mine be run over by a truck full of Ray-O-Vac batteries.

I knew he was dead when I saw it,he got squished like a bug,inhaled his cigarette and didn't even cough.....

He was a small guy,but he made a really huge,chunky mess in the snow that night.

They mailed an $8000 bill to him after he died 4 hours later.

Like,somehow they didn't figure he wouldn't be able to read the bill,or pay it.

This was way back in 1985 or 86.

This stuff has been way out of control for a long time.

I feel for you and can see the insanity of having a healthcare system that only takes care of the wealthy.

You are welcome here in Norway, we allways need some extra hands
Free healthcare and I'll personaly set you up with a job netting a minimum 3000$ a month+overtime if you don't mind physical labour and getting your hands dirty.

PM me and we'll set it up mate.



(edit)

I have read more of the thread now and can see that your situation is a bit more complicated than I initially thought. I wish you the best of luck and also the best to your father. The offer still stands, but I understand how hard it must be for you in this situation. If there was any way to move with your father his health would also be taken care of here.
If there is any way to make it happen I know a fair bit about the family immigration laws here and I am willing to help you in any way I can.

reply to post by ANOK


You don't get it.
The two are compatible because I am referencing a middle ground.
Health care is a product, it requires a means of production, distribution and is exchanged. It is but one aspect of the entire spectrum of production, distribution and exchange within a given society.

Your narrow view pertains to the entire spectrum of production and capital within a society, I am addressing a middle ground where a philosophy like socialism can fit within a Capitaist frame work in relation to healthcare.

When you come from a society that pays for it(production), controls it(distribution) and makes it universal(exchange). The production of healthcare is for USE and not PROFIT. That is philosophically and politically, socialism.
So get over it.

It is following the socialist philosophy you yourself point out. But a limit of control and involvement to just one aspect of production, distribution and exchange. That being health care.
So, get over it.
It works.

You picked out one sentence in my entire post.
That is all you did.
I clearly explain my statement that Soialism and Capitalism are compatible by addressing a middle ground between the philosophies in which health care can fit.

Get over the stars too dude, seriously, posts sound pathetic when you whine about people getting more star then your own.
Especially when you only address one sentence.

Originally posted by atlasastro
You don't get it.
The two are compatible because I am referencing a middle ground.
Health care is a product, it requires a means of production, distribution and is exchanged. It is but one aspect of the entire spectrum of production, distribution and exchange within a given society.

No you don't get it.

The social health care industry is not owned by the workers, it is not socialism. There is nothing to be compatible. You have many many services ran by the government, payed for with your taxes, that are not called socialist. So why health care?

Your narrow view pertains to the entire spectrum of production and capital within a society, I am addressing a middle ground where a philosophy like socialism can fit within a Capitaist frame work in relation to healthcare.

It is not a narrow view. It isn't a view at all, it's reality. Health care provided by the government through taxes is not socialism. It's not even a socialist model.

Why do you keep insisting that national, or social, health care has anything to do with socialism? Because you pay for it with your taxes instead of private insurance companies? That's not socialism.

When you come from a society that pays for it(production), controls it(distribution) and makes it universal(exchange). The production of healthcare is for USE and not PROFIT. That is philosophically and politically, socialism. So get over it.

The problem is your definition of socialism. Socialism first off is an economic system, not a political system.
Something being not for profit is NOT socialism. Where are you getting this from?

Socialism allows for profit, free-markets, known as market socialism. Socialism only changes where the profits go, instead of a private owner they go to the workers.

Will you quit telling me to 'get over it'. There is nothing for me to 'get over', OK?

I never said it didn't work, I am a supporter of national health care as it is more fair than private insurance within the capitalist system imo. I am also a socialist, a libertarian socialist.

It is following the socialist philosophy you yourself point out. But a limit of control and involvement to just one aspect of production, distribution and exchange. That being health care.

No it doesn't. The health care system is not owned by those who run it. It is NATIONAL health care really, not social health care. National meaning government owned.

You picked out one sentence in my entire post. That is all you did.
I clearly explain my statement that Soialism and Capitalism are compatible by addressing a middle ground between the philosophies in which health care can fit.

I didn't pick anything. I disagreed with your statement and I tried to explain why, you misunderstood so I tried to explain again. I think I wasted my time.

Get over the stars too dude, seriously, posts sound pathetic when you whine about people getting more star then your own. Especially when you only address one sentence.

What are you going on about, why are you so angry because I disagree with you?

I don't care about your stars I was just surprised so many agreed with such a misunderstanding.

I picked on that because it is a common mistake I get tired of hearing, and wanted to make a point.

www.sodahead.com...

reply to post by Wally Hope


Umm, not for nothin', but I think atlasastro was addressing ANOK, not you...


And then again, I could be wrong.

Don't mean to be insensitive but running 24-hour operations to help ANY person with ANY illness is neither cheap nor easy. Most people will NEVER pay the bill-- and they know this when they care for them-- please understand state-of-the-art healthcare is not free, and can never be.

As far as your situation, I'm sorry-- but you should at least pay some small part for the services your received. I guarantee you 3k doesn't cover your visit. 11k doesn't either.

Just to give you an idea EKG machines cost about 1 million dollars. Techs and doctors aren't cheap. And before you say they are overpaid, remember that doctors got to school 8+ years, plus residency and such. Eventually they do tend to break even and start making money-- but why would anyone dream of working as hard and long as they do to live an impoverished life... Avg medical student debt is around 150k. Not to mention 8+ years of lost wages, missed chance of investing money-- time away from family, no real vacations, lost love along the way-- It's actually becoming a problem-- medical school simply doesn't pay.

In the UK or Canada, they would have given you pain killers and maybe did a urinalysis. Then you would be put in queue to get an EKG sometime in the next year or so. Mind you even if you had 11k to pay the bill they would STILL do that. Sounds pretty crappy to me, given that the higher earners pay more into the system!

reply to post by ragman


how many times is an EKG machine used in it's lifetime? And, just out of curiosity, you sure there isn't some gov't program to assist hospitals to get one??? I bet if I looked, I could find one, or at least quite a few programs funneling lots of money into the hospitals!!

As far as the doctors, the problems you are describing, as far as their debt goes, is true for most of the college graduates out there, they are walking away with tons of debt, and a piece of paper that aint' gonna provide them with a job that will pay that debt for a long time, if ever.
This isn't justification to make everything less affordable, it's a justification to make everything MORE affordable! But, I bet if I brought up the issue of those highly paid adminstrators of the colleges, you would go on about how they deserve their money also.....

If most people aren't paying their bills, it's probably because their bills are unaffordable not to mention ludicrous and filled with crap and services that they know they didn't get, or that are so overpriced it's insane!! When I was in the hospital with my foot, a guy came in everyday and gave me and my room mate this little tube with a ball to blow in, then he came in something like two times a day for about 5 or ten minutes to watch us blow into the little tubes...and chat with my room mate.....
I was charges $100 dollars for each of these visits!!! How many of these visits did this guy make during an 8 hr day, because this guy brought in enough money to pay my weekly paycheck in less than two days in just those four visits in that one room. which consisted of less than 20 minutes of his time!!!

Originally posted by ragman


In the UK or Canada, they would have given you pain killers and maybe did a urinalysis. Then you would be put in queue to get an EKG sometime in the next year or so. Mind you even if you had 11k to pay the bill they would STILL do that. Sounds pretty crappy to me, given that the higher earners pay more into the system!

edit on 1/2/2011 by ragman because: (no reason given)

This quote tells me you have never been to these places and do not know what you are talking about.

I have been really sick(cancer) and there was no waiting for anything, 1 week after being diagnosed I was in surgery after extensive tests. 1 month after that i was in chemo. The reason for the 1 month wait for chemo was that it wasn't safe to start treatment too close to surgery. While in chemo I could eat from the hospital restaurant or I was free to order any food I wanted from other restaurants. My parents, relatives and wife could stay for free at the hospital hotel. I have a 10 year follow up plan with check ups every other month. Including echo, ekg, mri, blood tests+++. All travel to and from the hospital is also reimbursed for me and one more person, by air land or sea.
I have no idea what the real cost of this would be for a US citizern without insurance, but I'm quite sure it would mean financial ruin for most except Bill Gates.

It wasn't free obviously, it was paid by me, my parents and everyone else with a job in my country.
But at the time i needed the treatment i never had to worry about the costs, we as a society had allready paid for it togerther so we could all feel safe if and when something happens.
Higher earners pay more than low earners, that is just fair. How on earth is that bad?

If a country can wage wars at the cost of trillions of $ from the tax payers money then I for one do not understand how it is possible to neglect the health of those same tax payers.

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


The costs probably would have hurt Gates too!! Heck, he'd probably have to sell his mansion and buy one of the repos, maybe even the one in my neighborhood!!

Now, there's these neat little credit cards that you can get, just for your medical expenses, that carry a low interest rate, and the hospitals are refusing to carry the account more than 90 days and are referring you to these cards!! (just like the people who were writing the mortgages were turning right around and selling them off!!)

Look at the US housing market, and the effect it has had on the world!! Now consider, by the time an american dies, they could have millions of dollars in debt on these things, with an easy monthly payment of 10 - 20 dollars...and well, if these card companies is selling this debt off in cdos or whatever, ummm....
I can just picture the mess that we are gonna have when the boomers start to die off!

But, well, somewhere along the lines of commerce, there are a few people who are making really big bucks, and they can party hardy till that day comes I guess.....


A state of the art medical care system isn't worth much if it isn't affordable!!! And when you consider how much american taxpayer money has gone into making our system state of the art, best in the world, along with how much taxpayer money is going into providing the care for the select few that it helps out, well....
I think the amount of money that the taxpayers put into it, should entitle them to the care they need!!!!

Originally posted by Wally Hope

Originally posted by atlasastro
You don't get it.
The two are compatible because I am referencing a middle ground.
Health care is a product, it requires a means of production, distribution and is exchanged. It is but one aspect of the entire spectrum of production, distribution and exchange within a given society.

No you don't get it.

Sometimes it just seems folks are dense on purpose.

Capitalism requires SUPPLY and DEMAND...and it does great in that context...Build it cheaper...better..lower price...demand goes up etc. SUPPLY and DEMAND.

The reason why healthcare does not fit into the capitalistic equation is that disease doesn't give a ef.

The DEMAND for healthcare doesn't respond to price...no one gets hit by a car and then negotiates for the best ambulance service to take them to the hostpital. They don't bicker with the surgeon for the best price.

Cancer doesn't care if you are 3 or 30 years old...if you have a masters degree or work at the local mill. It doesn't care if you are rich or poor. Diseases that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat do not care if you can afford it.

Healthcare has nothing to do with capitalism.

That is why the most primitive of societies throughout the history of mankind have always cared for thier sick and elderly. The USA continues to pretend it is an argument about capitalism...despite the rest of the industrialized world scratching there heads at us...because the profiteers that make billions from our efed up healthcare "industry" are literally so greedy they don't care if people suffer and die en masse....just keep that money flowing.

It's a fixed game for them. Rigged by nature...Demand never responds to price...it doesn't respond to anything...people just get sick or injured..people pay or they die.

You can keep capitalism and socialize healthcare...because healthcare does not care about the rules of capitalism. Never has.

Capitalism rocks! Healthcare has nothing to do with it.

Do you have children? YOu may be able to apply for medical assistance. Depending on what state or county your in, they may have a public option. Call the social services office and they may have ideas for you.

reply to post by Shamanistical


IT shouldn't be the government responsibility to FORCE people to do ANYTHING... You sir are a prime example of what sort of people would accept a tyrannical government. It is none of your business what other people do with their own lives, and neither is it the business of government...

People like you seem to have a God complex mentality thinking you know what is better for everyone and wanting to force them.

BTW, just a side note I am not in bad shape, but neither do I want everyone to do, or eat what I eat or do...

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


Thanks for the offer, I have to decline it because my dad needs me here. You are a good man.

Originally posted by maybereal11
....
What it wasn't...be any objective analysis was a government takeover...that was simply a well thought out lie meant to make people just like yourself react precisely in the manner you are.
...

So according to you the government FORCING people to buy the insurance the government wants otherwise people get fined is not government taking control of healthcare?...

So according to you the government telling and forcing doctors to stop treatments and operations "because they are too expensive" for elder people is not government control over healthcare?...

Also, supposedly Obama took off the "end of life conseling"/ death panels from the bill, but now it has been passed by the same Obama as a regulation which took effect yesterday... Under this regulation doctors must provide yearly checkups and advise elder people of "end of life choices" instead of using treatments or operations that might save their lives but it is cheaper...

BTW, do use some of that grey matter you were born with and tell me what is better for Big Pharma companies... for people to get treatments and operations or for them to take pills instead?... I'll give you the answer because you might try to twist it around... Big Pharma makes a killing from selling PILLS, hence the "end of life counseling" will benefit BIG PHARMA, and not people...

Only the left would continue pretending that "FORCED end of life counseling" are not "death panels".... And then you people call us ignorant....

BTW, doctors will be PAID to give this counseling, so they have an incentive to force this on elder people who will be more easily influenced to make the wrong decision "for the good of all"... And you people want to call yourselves compasionate and humane....

Originally posted by ragman
Just to give you an idea EKG machines cost about 1 million dollars.

If you mean it's the thingy that does the cardio reading, they start from $800 and up, with $5000 price tag for what seems to be a super duper machine.

cardiologyforless.com...

So if this is what you meant, you clearly took your "info" our of your a##.

Techs and doctors aren't cheap.

Cardio is routinely done by common nurses.


You are so CONDITIONED to accept normality of ENORMOUS price tags attached to anything in healthcare, you are willing to swallow any bill without questioning.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Your whole rant is like a case study for fact check.

The gov doesn't decide what insurance you choose.
end of life counseling doesn't tell docs or patients what to do.
It doesn't even require that anybody have end of life counseling.
It makes the choice available for patients and families and pays the doc for the consult through medicare..if the patient chooses.
It's entirely up to the patient. How is knowing your choices and outcomes a bad thing vs. letting docs and hospitals have thier way with you during your final weeks/months.

Originally posted by Vicky32
Apalling ignorance. Your society (with the help of Faux News and the like) is trying as hard as it possibly can to convince you that Venezuela is a 'commanist rouge state' so that y'all can invade and take their oil as well! For goodness' sake, why are you all so gullible?

You want to talk about "apalling ignorance" and then make an asinine comment right after?...

Who the heck has said that we should invade Venezuela?... Oh wait, you heard Chavez and his delusional Chavistas claim the U.S. want's to invade them and you believed them?.... It is YOU who is gullible... The only people who believe Venezuela is going to be invaded because of it's oil are Chavez, Chavistas, and gullible, naive people such as yourself...

BTW, in case you didn't know Obama is supposed to be a PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT...same for his administration...

Originally posted by Vicky32
I had an American insisting in the teeth of the evidence I provided for him, that Chavez was an unelected military dictator. I gave him links to the facts about the several elections Chavez has won and he still refused to accept the truth.

Never mind that I am almost sure you don't speak, or understand one word in Spanish, but did you tell this to this person before or after Chavez told Venezuelans that if a referendum against him was called and if enough votes were present he would leave office, and when more than enough votes for the referendum were accepted by his government he went on tv and said no one would make him leave office for whatever reason...

Did you make this comment to this man before or after Chavez was given, by the people he put in his government, 18 more months for "emergency" after his office term has ended?...

Did you make this comment before or after Chavez has said many times that Venezuela and Cuba are following the same form of socialism?...

But of course, to a westerner who has never set foot in neither Cuba or Venezuela there is no socialist/communist dictatorships in these countries....

Originally posted by Vicky32
It's a toss-up which country y'all are gonna bomb back to the Stone Age next - Pakistan, Iran or Venezuela... I notice y'all never attack a country that could give you a decent fight back - such as North Korea!

Not just wimps, but gullible whining wimps!
Vicky

Nice, so all you have to show are insults... typical, and then those like you want to call yourselves as intelligent, well articulated people...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Shamanistical

 

You sir are a prime example of what sort of people would accept a tyrannical government. It is none of your business what other people do with their own lives, and neither is it the business of government...

You're not talking to me, are you? I'm totally against involuntary servitude, and I too am against ANY government social engineering/involvement in our lives.

If though however I suddenly find myself involuntarily subjected to this collective socialist health care thang of Obama's, where those I would not want to share medical expenses with suddenly become a burden upon me financially, THEN I WILL be all for getting up in everyone's face when it comes to PROPERLY maintaining their health!

Hell yeah, if I have to pay some other persons medical expenses, they will NOT be over-eating, no more fat people, no more alcohol, no more TV .. you exercise instead, no drug abuse, no more promiscuous sex, you MUST brush your teeth after eating anything, you will wear your seat belt, you will eat only healthy food .. no more fast food, no more smoking .. anything, and no more a bunch of stuff ... if it becomes my responsibility to pay yours or someone else's potential medical costs!!! Got that people? If Obama socialist care becomes law, I'll punch ya in the face and send ya to the hospital before I let you get lung cancer and I have to pay for THAT instead !!!

Well I had to go to hospital yesterday....

Asthma related issues.

I was ill with flu like symptoms for two days, hadn't slept for 2 days and my breathing was really bad yesterday.
So I was driven to hospital and went through to the desk.

Told the receptionist my issues and was asked to take a seat.

She went through to the treatment area and told one of the nurses.... who called me through about 5 mins later.
Because it was breathing related, all the people with cut hands and bad legs and stuff had to wait... oh well


Anyway, I had an ECG, had a chest x-ray, had my blood pressure taken, temperature taken, had 3 vials of blood removed for testing and was put on a nebuliser... all within an hour of being there and ALL for free.

Turns out I had some sort of chest infection and fever... coupled with asthma, never good.

Anyway, was given another Inhaler, Antibiotics and Steroids.

Again... ALL for FREE.


Thank goodness for the NHS

That is outrages . There is no possible way Wage,Medicine,Electricity ETC is worth that much money. That has to be some type of fraud. You have to take action. Either get a lawyer or Get a loan.

PS: Don't go to that hospital anymore!