I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
]

And of course someone such as you would also agree with brainwashed Barbara Boxer (Democrat of course) who announced to the world a few years back that "there are no more communist nations anywhere in the world"... Despite the fact that millions of people still live under such dictatorships, and we have a few others emerging like Venezuela

Apalling ignorance. Your society (with the help of Faux News and the like) is trying as hard as it possibly can to convince you that Venezuela is a 'commanist rouge state' so that y'all can invade and take their oil as well! For goodness' sake, why are you all so gullible?
I had an American insisting in the teeth of the evidence I provided for him, that Chavez was an unelected military dictator. I gave him links to the facts about the several elections Chavez has won and he still refused to accept the truth.
It's a toss-up which country y'all are gonna bomb back to the Stone Age next - Pakistan, Iran or Venezuela... I notice y'all never attack a country that could give you a decent fight back - such as North Korea!
Not just wimps, but gullible whining wimps!
Vicky

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse


What's free will when your government controls every aspect of your life?...
Already your government and chief of police are mulling over the posibility of taking away your freedom to peacefully protest, and i tell you what, people like you will eventually accept it because you will, or already believe "it is for the good of all"...

EU, I have become pretty sick and tired of your rants about the PTB.
All you do is spill hyperbole and conspiracy.
The fact that you can relegate socialized health care, a system that is run successfully in many democatic/capatilist countries, as a conspiracy or attempt at controlling people is one of the worst cases of indoctrination typifying the rhetoric established by special interest groups aimed at ensuring a commoditization of health care in the USA.

You are simply towing the party line like a good puppet.

For people who cannot fathom that certain services of a society can be established as universal, like health care, whilst still adhering to the general philosophy of capitalism, indoctrination is one where you accept that socialism and captilalism are antagonistic. Or simply put, it is either one or the other.

This is your stance and it is not based in reality.

Socialism and Capitalism are compatible and this is evident in the fact that most western countries have socilaized systems and services in place.
In fact, in most western countries these socialized services are there to cater for the inequalities generated by a capitalists system. These inequalities are inevitable within a capitalist system. In a health care system run in a capitalist fashion, these inequalities are also inevitable.

As the gap between the rich and the poor increases due to the way competition and monopolzation pools more and more resources in smaller and smaller concentrations( which we see all over the west) the demand for socialized services and a socialist philosophy to cater for the poor increases. In the USA, the health care issue is a prime example.

It is now considered more profitable to reduce the level of poor in a nation by having an active government balance inequality by instituting a level of socialism with a capitalist frame work in order to reduce the burden of inequality on the potential for individuals in a society to participate in a capitalist market.
That is why Europe, the U.K, Australia and many other countries have universal social services related to welfare and health care.

There is a middle ground between neo-liberal individualism and a socialist collective philosophy, and it works. The evidence that it works can be found in my post here.

Unfortunately, from your rhetoric, it is evident that capitalist monopolies have indoctrinated you with a fear of any form of socialized services.
Your country has socialized monopolized capitalist bank debt with bailouts. The army, navy and air force are all socialized services. The FBI, and all other agencies are socialized. Highways systems, all socialized.
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENTS OF LABOR, AGRICULTURE, STATE, EDUCATION, INTERIOR, NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, COMMERCE, ENERGY, TREASURY, TRANSPORTATION, HOMELAND SECURITY , JUSTICE, ENERGY, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, all socialized.
I could go on.

So when you state, as you have repeatedly, that socializing health care will lead to this:

It always starts with a few things, including healthcare, then you take over some "private companies", then you take away the ability of the people to own and bear guns, then you take people's ability to protest, take over other private companies, and slowly but surely every right is taken away...

post by ElectricUniverse

How do you suddenly differentiate between the health care system and all the other socialized services?
I mean, if one part of the system is suddenly socialized within a system with many, many, many socialized services, why do you only start to worry when it is healthcare?
I'll tell you why, because EU, you are told to be afraid. And you are.

I have seen you state repeatedly( more simply) that the progression from a socialized health care system will result in socialism over taking a society.
Yet I do not see you following the progression of the capitalist system which results in a monopoliztion within socities, effectively we have corporations taking control and centarlizing everything.
We see this, with the media, with banks, agriculture, oil etc etc.
So when you say this:

Make no mistake, all this "socialization" is leading the world towards one goal, and it is not one of "unity, where we are all treated well"...

You are ignoring the fact that capitalism is the very thing that has generated globalization. Not socialism.
It is capitalism that has generated greater division and centralized more wealth, resources and political power into the hands of so few. Socialism has not done that.
In fact, socialism, especially in relation to healthcare is essentially handing back a service to the entire population. I guess that must be evil hey, EU?

Systems like universal health care take away the resources of health as a commodity, the wealth of health care from private companies, and the political issue of health care by making it apolitical as a universal right, and this hands it back to the people.
I guess that would make you someone who supports the PTB and how they dictate to a population in relation to health care in the USA.
Currently, in many other countries, health care is universal and it works and the people come first. Not the companies, not the corporations, not the lobbyists and not the politicians.
But hey, screw the people right E.U.

Once again, read this and tell me I am wrong.
post by atlasastro


Thank God some people realize that there can be a sane middle ground between two philosophies. A middle ground where people can have the best possible health care simply based on the status that they are a citizen that requires such a service.

Originally posted by atlasastro
Socialism and Capitalism are compatible and this is evident in the fact that most western countries have socilaized systems and services in place.

That is not true.

Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production.

They are not really compatible.

Socialism has NOTHING to do with health care anymore than it is to do with any other service a company, or government, provides. Using that logic then the police, fire fighters, the prisons, the military, are all socialist (LOL).

This is a misconception that comes from the word 'social', which means it pertains to a group of people in a community (and no that doesn't mean communism), nothing to do with socialism that is an economic system. I don't know how many times I see 'socialist' health care. People really are that dumb.

A country that has social health care is only protecting their labour pool in a less exploitative way.

reply to post by ANOK


Dude, regardless of you protestation, socialized medicine( people owning and contributing to the production of a healtcare system) is working within capitalist societies in the west.
It is working. They are compatible.

Get over it.

@groingrinder.

call barak and tell him your problem. i hear that from 2-3 pm he does answer the phone. after being screened of course.

Phone:
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
Comments: 202-456-1111

those are the actual oval office phone numbers, public knowledge.

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit

so you see what happens, I have 2 posts deleted because of the fact that I told Endtimer he is a .......
I hate people like him, really !!
but you know what : here on ATS those Endtimers get free access to spit their hate and their racism and their fascist ideas but when a normal person tells them in front of each one of us that he is a big .... then your post is deleted !!!!! He makes lots of people sick with his arguments, he thinks he is much better than all others, but you may not tell him the truth ??? come on people !!!
He has all perfect medical aid he needs, just free, like all elected people out there, but who is paying for that ???
and another human being has to wait to be helped until he got the big money for it ?????
You better delete HIS posts !!!! they are full of venom !!! Very Happy New Year to all people of good will !!!

reply to post by Sparky63

So what difference is it to me if I pay the insurance company or pay the government?

I'll tell you.....With private insurance I can always shop around for a more competitive rate or plan, I can even opt out if I want and choose some type of alternative medicine.

Absolutely correct. There is another major outcome of socialized medicine....as the government squeezes more and more from the productive members in society to pay for the ever-increasing number of people on the dole, the country will experience a "brain drain" as the producers move to greener pastures in order to be able to keep a larger portion of what they have earned. This is already happening in places like Venezuela, as Chavez continues to nationalize huge chunks of the nation's industry.

Soon there will not be enough taxpayers to pay for their "free medical system". It is showing in the UK already as certain cancer rates increase as early screening tests are delayed because of cost, etc.

Originally posted by atlasastro
reply to post by ANOK

 

Dude, regardless of you protestation, socialized medicine( people owning and contributing to the production of a healtcare system) is working within capitalist societies in the west.
It is working. They are compatible.

Get over it.

Again you keep misunderstanding. Socialized medicine is NOT socialism. There is nothing to 'get over', it is not socialism working within capitalism.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production, a system opposed to capitalism. A capitalist economy that has government provided services is still a capitalist economy. The economy is still controlled by the few owners of capital exploiting labour. Free, or social, health care does make the economy socialist.

How did you read my post and still misunderstand, and all the people that stared you?

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by RichardA
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Buddah,
Sorry I have to take issue with your statement. Yes I believe that every man and woman should have available to them the means with which to protect themselves.

I don't feel either way, but I do think you missed the point. Columbine students had no business or right to walk around armed to teeth. That's a fact (I hope) in any frame of reference.


REPLY: The underage students, I will agree should not have been carrying firearms, but teachers could have/should have been armed in order to help deal with a situation such as that. Oh, and your wrong, they do have the RIGHT to walk around armed. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be INFRINGED. Pretty cut and dried to me.

If I want to carry a .45 strapped to my hip when I walk down the street, deal with it.

I really don't have a problem with that, really. Except it feels like I could strap a stone axe to my hip and howl at fool moon to appease spirits of the dead. As a society, we do need to move on from having to walk around armed and dangerous just to make sure you and your family are all right. I do like guns, by the way. A lot. The feel, the smell, the sound.

REPLY: I don't know what a fool moon is but if you want to carry a stone axe and howl at a full moon, be my guest, just don't do so on my property, or in such a way that puts anyone in my family at risk.

If you want you children's safety to depend on the response time of the local PD, then you are not thinking clearly.

Again, stone age approach. Well, I know I'm lucky -- the response time of my PD is pretty incredible (from experience), so indeed your mileage will vary.

REPLY: Really, can they get there before someone shoots up a store or mugs someone? Wow that's impressive, or do you mean that people get taken to the hospital because the police get there faster than most places AFTER THE CRIME HAS OCCURRED? Its been my experience that unless the police happen to see a crime happening, someone has to call and report the crime occurring before the police even get sent there. Thanks but I'd rather my wife need explain the dead rapist at her feet than have to give a police report on being raped. Just a left over stone age approach I'm sure.

He just turned 19 and already has his first handgun, a 9 mil. (personally I think its a bad choice and prefer the .45 myself but hey that's just personal preference.)

Aaah, the eternal argument among those who like guns

I like Sig Sauer chambered for 9mm and it just rocks. Try one. Elegant and deadly accurate.

REPLY: Sigs are nice, but I I believe the 9 tends to over penetrate. 45 hollowpoint however mushrooms out much quicker at a lower muzzle velocity inherently increasing the impact and stopping power. Again personal preference here so it depends on the shooter and what they appreciate. Glocks are nice too. Ever get to fire the 45 caliber Glock? Kicks like a mule on meth. Gave me goosebumps first time I fired one.

Those who are willing to give up freedom for safety deserve neither. (paraphrasing Ben Franklin)

Dude, you are so overdoing it.

REPLY: Dude, so the way I feel. Seriously, I will not give up my freedoms for anyone. If someones freedoms are taken away and they still fight for them, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with them in order to defend their freedoms. If someone voluntarily trades their freedom for perceived safety, may their chains rest lightly upon them.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


maybe their posts aren't deleted because they are sticking to the thread topic and your getting yours deleted because your making personal attacks on someone? Hmmmmmm..........try leaving the personal attacks off of the screen and maybe more of your posts will get posted. The posts I've read have more to do with telling people they are this or that and nothing to do with what the topic really is. Try debating the issue and leave the ad hominem and personal attacks elsewhere. Not only will your responses be posted, but you may actually add something to the conversation. Right now all your doing is damaging your point of view by making it about the person and not the subject at hand. Debate involves facts and cogent arguments about why you feel a certain way, not name calling and off topic rants about the individual. Try it that way and I'll bet your posts aren't blocked. Just sayin.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Well my friend you must have no freewill...bececause you do not understand already how the constitution has been undermined...and frankly...because i do live all over the world in any country i have chosen to do so i would say i do have free will a lot more so than you do...like i said...you and a bunch of your friends go have a protest in any major American city and see what happens to your so called freedomsmy friend...go ahaed....try it....if what happened in london to prince Charles...tell me that if it happened to say the president...hmmm....shots would have been fired....so please do not go on about your precious constitution because it has already been so watered down by the elite....also when you bother to take the time to read your constitution...which i do....you will see the term...blantently ...Amendments..now look up the meaning...and there you will find your answer....so power to the people my friend....because you have absolutely none...nada....no one iota....not even a tinsy little bit.....i Believe your ignorance runs soooo deep it is incredible...and i just have seen a thread posted on the fed...and people over there are actually suprised it is private and run by the Rothschilds....now who are the ignorant ones...grow up mate....i told you ....i could wipe your bottom with your own history.

NOTE: you see my friend you appear to be a typical troll as you use typical troll tactics...you break down what people say into little qoutes...taking things out of context...simplifying them for your attacks...as there is not enough capacity to answer questions in a respectful indepth mannor.....so when to learn to speak with respect...we might actually have some decent convos on the NWO and the ELITE...but until you learn to communicate in a decent respectful fashion..without hate....because like i said i lived in America for four years....I study american and world history.....I do indepth studies of the Rothchilds and their Bloodlines....I study JFK and how he was actually trying to bring down the Rothchilds Empire hence his Assasination....so please.....learn some respect and we might be able to have some good conversations...otherwise....you just keep on Trolling.

I've noticed that certain conservatives interpret the Constitution as not mandating state-supported or provided services, healthcare included. Yet what higher purpose is there for government other than to defend its citizens, protect their freedoms and rights and secure the nation's progress? A nation's army, its police and justice system, and yes public healthcare all serve this ultimate role of government.

Apart from places like North Korea or Cuba, public health systems in industrialised Europe and elsewhere rely in fact on public-private partnerships, as states seek to protect their citizens' right to life, while guaranteeing choice of providers. So no, public healthcare is not communist is not bankrupting private insurers and clinics anywhere.

It's most ironic that even Netanyanu's Israel, the wet dream of US conservatives, provides universal public healthcare to its citizens.

Originally posted by RichardA

REPLY: Dude, so the way I feel. Seriously, I will not give up my freedoms for anyone. If someones freedoms are taken away and they still fight for them, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with them in order to defend their freedoms. If someone voluntarily trades their freedom for perceived safety, may their chains rest lightly upon them.

Words to live by.

There is no Law in America requiring a surgeon to even be present in an operating room while Americans get operated on. I had a surgeon tell me what he was going to do for my operation. Later from reading my medical records I found out he had informed my insurance company he was going to use P.A.C.'s. That's code word for trainees to do the surgery. That's when I found out there is no law in America requiring a surgeon to even be present for a surgery. They all let trainees operate under their name and do the dirty work while they go off and play Golf. Yet we pay full price expecting a real surgeon to do the work.

The trainees screwed up my surgery and left metal fragments in my spine. I thought of suing them but was so disgusted at how I was treated..I just wanted to puke. My eventual second surgery I again was a guinea pig for a new procedure for some college kids in San Francisco. They screwed up as well.

I now know the true state of the medical field in America...and it's appalling. Nationalizing it won't help it. Everyone will end up like me. Disabled by Doctors....I regret serving this country and wish my ancestors never left their homeland. If anyone wants proof Federal ran healthcare sucks just ask a Vet. Or a military member...all they get peddled is motrin, even if they need immediate surgery. I've got a story I'm sure hundreds of thousands have as well. We kill our own.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
I really wish there was a simple solution that gave Americans faith in a system that works for them.

We have one already. We live in a nation where we are free to choose our careers and earn as much or as little as we please (less what we get jacked by uncle sham of course). And we also can spend it and/or SAVE IT FOR A RAINY DAY, as much as we please too ... or not.

Unfortunately however, not everyone has taken full advantage of these "system" opportunities, and/or have not made prudent and wise and responsible choices when it comes to managing their lives and finances. For example, anyone that decided to spend their income on home entertainment systems, computers, satellite television, Internet access, a pool in the back yard, a new car in the driveway, a trip to Vegas, etc., has no right to say that the "system" we got today has failed them when suddenly they are all old and sickly and haven't the money to pay for their keep.

To many have chosen to spend their income on cool crap and fun and other stupid needless crap all the while thinking someone else will worry about their health care and their retirement and probably their eventual burial expense. I have no compassion for the irresponsible and unmotivated, not in this country, where the "system" certainly DOES work if you want it to and you do what you're suppose to do in order to make it work for you.

Good grief, ask you typical oldster out there how much they have personally saved during their life for their eventual retirement and burial some day. It will shock you to learn how many irresponsible humans surround us all, it's scary, and I want to run away from them all before they enslave me and all jump on my back and start nibbling on my ass as their next source of sustenance. Humans suck, what a disgusting species.

reply to post by plube

i would say i do have free will a lot more so than you do...like i said...you and a bunch of your friends go have a protest in any major American city and see what happens to your so called freedomsmy friend...go ahaed....try it....if what happened in london to prince Charles...tell me that if it happened to say the president...hmmm....shots would have been fired....so please do not go on about your precious constitution because it has already been so watered down by the elite...

Let me get this straight...you equate a potentially lethal attack on members of your royal family to freedom?

O-KAY...

Originally posted by SaturnFX
You said:

Originally posted by endtimer
reply to post by groingrinder

 

I'm not sure what the point is. You had all of these procedures done,
knowing you only have $50.00 a month, you knew this going to the
Medical Center. Now what? Are you mad at society or the Hospital
in general because they didn't wipe out the entire debt? You stated
that they took off $8,000 and have $3,000 left to pay off. I would say
that is a pretty darn good arrangement. What are you complaining
about? Suck it up and get a part time job. Do something besides
complaining to ATS.

edit on 28-12-2010 by endtimer because: (no reason given)

But in a previous thread authored by you, you wrote:

We would love to
stop the wars, treat people fairly and have a growing economy as we had
just a short time ago, but the elites are screwing the whole world to satisfy
them and only them. They don't care about the "little people" anymore. We the
American public are the little people that bend over for these corrupt and
morally bankrupt thugs that are ruining this country and big chunks of the world
also.

You, sir, are the morally bankrupt problem. you are the exact thing you railed against pretending you are somehow different...no, you are a perfect representation of that which you proclamed to hate.

Sorry mate..you looked at a "little person" and sneered at it. You decided elitism only need get proper healthcare, and insinuated that if the disgusting poor person couldn't afford life saving health care, they simply should have had the decency to die.

Once -your- mindset is eradicated from the public, then we can start discussing fairness and equality...but until such time, well..you are the problem.

edit on 28-12-2010 by SaturnFX because: (no reason given)

exactly FX -

This individual is the very BARRIER protecting the elite scheming - without him and his ill this nation could
address the notion of a system which costs more than the federal government deducts from every paycheck
combined

reply to post by Shamanistical

Good grief, ask you typical oldster out there how much they have personally saved during their life for their eventual retirement and burial some day. It will shock you to learn how many irresponsible humans surround us all, it's scary, and I want to run away from them all before they enslave me and all jump on my back and start nibbling on my ass as their next source of sustenance. Humans suck, what a disgusting species.

Seriously, have you thought about seeing a doctor? Growing up won't fix what you've got.
You make Electric look like he's just descended from heaven.

It's the way our laws work, and the way are systems are set up. There are issues, and it is going to take a while to figure out to repair them, because our economy is fragile, and it's complicated.

Nobody wants to enslave you, or nibble on you. Stop with the drama queen act.

reply to post by mishigas


please do not twist words...what i was saying is the right to protest without fear of getting shot.....simple as.

I am addressing what EU is stating saying what a gloriuos free society america is when people live in fear of being shot by over zealous police officers with guns....and also living in fear of going to get health care because the cost is so over inflated by those same company's who have no care for the consumer but only the bottom line...as for Attacking the Royals....that was the police being complete and utter incompetent in their ability to deal with the ptrotesters in a fashion other than Kettling whichs leads to anger....but hey ....live and learn shall we....and there will be more protests in european countries as the people will not be swindled and just listen blindly to what their goverments say...yet EU is willing to call Europeans sheep...hmmmm....To me if people are willing to stand up to injustices that are being put upon the people by TPTB then who are the sheep....I hear lots of times how unhappy the American people are with their GOV...and what do they do about it....NOTHING.
The same London police chief who said they wouldstop protest's is the same one who could lose his job for being so out of touch and allowing the Royals motorcade to travel into the protest..as they were going to attend a totally different Event....Complete incompetence.
But i must say that Charles was calm and show extreme restraint and even so did not blame the students for the right for protest but did not condone the voilence.....
Now just one note here....The royals live off the same Taxes of the people ....And that is another issue...Also the royals are part of the Same Elite who want to control Society so good thing they did not get hurt but by the same token it wakes Em up to the anger of the people.

Originally posted by plube
reply to post by mishigas

 

please do not twist words...what i was saying is the right to protest without fear of getting shot.....simple as.

People protest here every day, and nobody that I know is afraid of being shot because they are protesting.

Now, there have been instances where protesters have turned violent, and forced police to defend themselves, but that is not the norm.

In the UK the bobbies don't wear guns; that's why you aren't shot in the arse.

I am addressing what EU is stating saying what a gloriuos free society america is when people live in fear of being shot by over zealous police officers with guns....

Now you are acting like an hysterical old biddie. BOO!

and also living in fear of going to get health care because the cost is so over inflated by those same company's who have no care for the consumer but only the bottom line...

Now you're really weaving tales, my friend.

I hear lots of times how unhappy the American people are with their GOV...and what do they do about it....NOTHING.

We just dumped a whole bunch of overspenders and advocates of Obamacare in November. We're going after Obama himself in 2012. Want us to send him over to you? You can have him for a six-pack of Guiness and it doesn't even have to be cold.

America created the Tea Party Movement and effected great changes upon our political landscape, and not a single shot was fired!! So don't go around singing songs about policemen shooting up the protesters, OK?

Sorry to hear about that op i live in td uk an were are so lucky re health care although you would be suprised how many ppl dont appreciate the NHS