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I spent 3 hours in the ER on the 15th. I just got my $11,000.00 bill in the mail.

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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 

OP, I really feel for you but it is really hard for me to comprehend your situation.
Because in Australia mate:
My brother suffered 2nd degree, and superficial second degree burns to his face, arm and leg 4 weeks ago at a B.B.Q.
Took him to ER.
They admitted him straight away.
He was giving 15mg of morphine, partial Ice bath for the burns and then hooked up to a warmer(intravenous device that circulate warm solution) to combat the effects of the ice on his core temperature as well as to offset plasme loss, he then had a chest x-ray via portable machine.
Transfered him by ambulance that night to a specialist burns unit in Sydney.
Was kept in for 3 days.
Came home to heal a little more before they re-assesed him, and then re-admitted him because he needed skin grafts.
5 days in a hospital room to himself, 3 skin grafts. Released.
Back at the unit evey second day to have the grafts re-dressesed and checked and finally to have staples removed.
He is now sweet and doing his own dressings but still going back to the unit to get check ups and to get fitted for custom made compression garments to protect his wounds and grafts and to get some light physio on his hand and arm to make sure the grafts stretch properly to ensure movement.
Bill- $0.
He only coughed up for his perscriptions for pain relief which came under $100.
He gets all new dressings, paraffin, bepantham etc supplied at the unit each visit.

This is socialized medicine. It ain't the best in the world, but it works. I pay a tax levy every year for this. This year my brother needed that care that I contribute too, and he got it.
If Americans think that something like this is the end of the world, well, so be it.

I cannot fathom that you have to pay that much for what you had done for you. I feel sick for you.






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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by atlasastro
 


Hey. Sorry to hear that. Tell your brother to get well soon, and to stay away from the Kangaroo tail! .



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Please do not do what you just did again and say the words "you people" as it just showed your complete and utter ignorance by doing that and it shows your complete and utter disregard for people...you have no idea what my political alignments are...and if you bother to read peoples posts you would get a better understanding of them.
the whole thing here as i see you will not answer a single question with one ounce of logic...If i gage you correctly which i could be wrong is your against all things not american...so therefore one would liken it to a religion where one becomes blinded by Dogma....and that is not good any open debate...and as for what WE do on ATS i to am a memebr and i frequent the board and write a great deal of articles....and yes about many subjects and topics....but not once have you answered a basic question of how healthcare leads to socialism or communism....and also it show show little you know of the european makeup as each country still retains it's own goverment and each country exerts it's own laws with a general blanket that governs a commonality between nations.....

Simplified version for you like the FED oversee's the STATE.....

I would love to say exactly the type of person you are.....but i will refrain because i would not like to bring myself down to the same tactics i can see you using.

But if you could please just answer the question about health care leading to the demise of nations...that would be helpful
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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by AnnieMaine
He got a huge chunk of the bill written off, then he is probably eligible for Medicaid or something like that. The people who are hurt by the health care system are those who are working full time but making just a bit too much money to have any of the bill written off and they can't afford insurance. I know someone who falls into that category and it is sad. They had an ER visit and found out that they made about $3500 more than the limit to have any of the bill written off. The only health insurance they can afford on their income has a $15,000 deductible - yep, $15,000. All that does is protect them from losing the house - maybe. To get insurance that would have a reasonable deductible, they would have to pay around $800 a month in premiums - when someone only makes $2000 a month, they can't afford that kind of premium. So they are stuck until they run up enough bills that they lose their house and everything else, then they probably will still not be eligible for anything because they still make too much money for Medicare or whatever it is. Too many people in this country fall in the crack as far as medical care goes. This person would be better off to quit the job and sell the house and go on welfare - then could get free medical care - the system is just totally screwed up.


Your exactly right!! Its those that are trying, those that make a little too much for assistance but not enough to afford insurance (it is common for someone to have to pay $200+ a month for individual insurance where I am, over $400 for family!! and no that's not before taxes--and this insurance i'm referring to isn't even all that good, and of course does NOT include dental).
So folks get off their 'lazy butts,' take some 'self-responsiblity,' show some 'initiative,' and they get SCREWED. That's how it works.
Some days I have wondered what it's all for...get a job, stress about work, stress because you can't pay your necessary bills because everything is so friggin expensive and your work doesn't pay enough, stress because you can't buy the med insurance offered cause then you can't pay the $600-$800 daycare bill for your kids so that you can work, then stress because your sick and can't afford to go to the doc, then you're so sick so you have to go to the ER, then you got TONS of stress cause now you're on the verge of bankruptcy.
The 'American Dream.'



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:46 AM
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reply to post by Nutella
 


Thanks.
He's sweet now.
He won't be toasting any roo on the barbie for a long while though.
But that is what you learn from pouring an accelerant on a bbq already lit.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:49 AM
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Some responses in this thread really illustrate so fully why the world iss going to hell in a handbasket. The monetary system is a farce, ownership is a farce, if not; why were the Indian Tribes of America living with open land non ownership for thousands of years and they have had no trouble, yes they fought with other nations for some things but land ownership was not one, then the British idiots came here and corrupted their way of life, sent them to reservations, and basically took over land that even the Natives did not beleive belonged to any one person any more than someone would say that a tree or a deer belonged to them. One day this system is going to go down in flames, the monetary system, I would venture to guess sooner then later. The sad thing is, those that are going to look out for their own interest and for what benefits them, are going to perish, including those so called "wonderful doctors", HAHAHA... When the dollar crashes, and it will, those that are self interest, they will never be helped, they will be left to fend for themselves, and they are not ready to survive or able to, guarantee you that much. You see a wise man once said no man is an island unto themself or something along those lines, if you cannot work together, nobody is going to help you, when you're down on your luck and demanding some kind of payment for care when the majority of the community is working together to just stay alive and you're demanding they give up all their stockpile to pay for medical care, they might even shoot you. There are also people alive that have studied medicine and not become doctor's who also studied holistic medicine and alternative therapies, etc, that would do the necessary healing without worrying about taking an entire communities well being from their hands. I am one of them.

These self interest groups are going to be remembered and when they try to reach out to us for support, guess what, they'll be met with the same disregard they have given us, not because we will be vengeful, but because we will know their true evil nature, and we will know that giving them the ability to survive would be detrimental to the better enlightened world to come into being, their greed and thirst for power will spoil whatever we would try to do to make the world a better place, and not repeat the mistakes we have succomed to presently. We want change, with change comes a huge purge, we must weed them out like so many contaminants leaving only the pure and kind, or our world will be doomed again.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


once again the man who know about the NWO apparently and then asks why americans give out more in Aid than any other country.....It's BLOOD MONEY....it is payment to keep the status quo by the goverment so the they can always go into third world countries and have their military bases...keep their stay behind armies....have access to the resources..and have a say in foreign politcs....
Wow you really think people are stupid...well it is amazing that your willing to tell about how the NWO works yet your willing to use the same NWO propaganda to try to make your points.

Note:by the way...It is your money they are giving out that could be used for your healthcare...



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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Yeah, and i can see by your avatar where that "progression" leads to...

i know it too well, as I said I have already lived, and experienced the "socialist progress"... Thanks but no thanks...




Well I had the avatar made for me... and It's because I'm always called a Commie.... and mainly by ignorant, narrow minded folk like yourself.

So I embraced it.

Cheers for confirming your ignorance.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by endtimer
Oh, so I don't care about anyone and don't give a rats ass? I don't care about whining and sniveling
people that seem to want everything handed to them on a golden platter, that's what I don't give a
rats ass about.


Health care was considered something of a "golden platter" in two types of societies: in Stone Age and in the United States. Other groups of people elevated themselves from this pitiful condition and try to help those unfortunate who took ill.


Health care ISN'T free.


Oh, I believe you, just look at the bill in the OP.

If you think it's OK to charge 11 grand for a handful of fairly generic, run of the mill tests, you are beyond help.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 09:14 AM
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Just wanted to add from the point of view of an insured person:

a) I keep paying co-payments that add up, given that I have a family of 4. My share of the insurance cost goes up as well every year, eating up whatever raise I may get.
b) certain medicine for respiratory problems my kids had last year was terribly expensive even with the insurance
c) periodically, there is a specialist in attendance who is not "in the network", in which case I get the full bill (huge) and have to fight it, losing both money and a tremendous amount of time
d) astronomical insurance costs put great pressure on my employer. As an example, a few years ago when the budget stayed flat, people were let go just because there was no $$$ to cover the uptick in the medical coverage.

In short, it's legalized madness and people who say it's OK are, in my opinion, thoroughly brainwashed by the right. Congrats.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


I sure hope all works out in the end...and your in the same situation as my friends were in and then they had a biggy and the insurance company in their ifinite wisdom and some sort of get out clause used it so they would not have to pay...It devastated the family and sent them down the road to ruins...they were doing the so called right things and had insurance...and that was not enough in the end...i find it irresponsible that a nation which tries to say how high and mighty they are and how they say we are all for freedom...yet do not make it so people have the freedom to good health.
best wishes to you and your family and hope you can always find a way to stay healthy.
I will tell a joke that goes around in Canada.
There is a Canadian and an American who get involved in a great bust bar brawl in Canada.
The Canadian is sitting across from the beat up American just as beat up himself laughing his head off
The American looks over and says.."what are you laughing at"
The Canadain smiles
"I will get fixed up for free"

I don't know why America is so against health care other than the rich lobbyists for the Pharma companies will not be able to charge the outrages prices for care...or the over aid doctors wont be able to buy that second jagaur.




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posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
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The Social Democracies that Europe has are nothing like the Governments of the old Soviet Union, which was never communist either in the true sense of the word, but rather Authoritarian single-party dictorships. Socialism is also a different ideology than communism, so I am totally confused why Americans confuse the two..


And of course someone such as you would also agree with brainwashed Barbara Boxer (Democrat of course) who announced to the world a few years back that "there are no more communist nations anywhere in the world"... Despite the fact that millions of people still live under such dictatorships, and we have a few others emerging like Venezuela.

Look how confused people like you actually are that you claim socialism and communism are different... The only difference between socialism and communism is the same as the differences from a white cat and a brown cat... they are both cats...

Even Karl Marx said socialism is but a stage away from communism. Every communist country is also socialist, and "for the good of all" is the reason why they turn into dictatorships because they have to force everyone to accept the leftist dogma, but you are too blind to see this.

You Europeans think that the people who have been brainwashing you to accept socialism "have only but good things in mind for everyone", but i guess that's why all such countries with the help of the rich elites turned into such good socialist nations...



Originally posted by stumason
Well, actually I am not that confused, because I know from experience that unless you can break something down into a simple black/white, right/wrong, left/right explanation, alot of you guys simply cannot grasp it. There is no grey area, no between the lines, no room for maneuver. Pretty retarded really, but it's the way you guys have been brainwashed, to use your turn of phrase


Oh yes you are that confused, because you think the people who are pushing for a socialist One World Government "are only doing it with the best intentions in the world"... When these people have even written that any way to bring this One World Order/Government to fruition even wars, crisis, etc must be used "for the good of all"... YOU are the naive, confused soul.

You think these same people will maintain total control by the goodness in their hearts"?...

edit on 30-12-2010 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:56 AM
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The solution to the problem with the American healthcare system does not lie with taxation. You are just feeding the beast and encouraging him to beg and bite. TORT, INSURANCE and BIG PHARMA reform would go a long way towards lowering medical costs. Robbing me to provide for the welfare of another person is inherently wrong. This year my premiums and out of pocket costs for my and my families health insurance went up $1,960 dollars a year. So much for Obamacare not costing the middleclass anything ehh? Healthcare is not free. Someone has to pay for it. The government is in bed with these lawyers, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies.

While the philanthropical concept of everyone paying into a pool to provide for all may sound dreamily utopian; it does not negate the fact that once the consumption of that pool becomes greater than what one can pay into the pool due to the rising costs of healthcare and the number of people drawing, that pool will indeed dry up. The same can be said about every single social welfare program the US currently has in place. Social security, food stamps, welfare, unemployment insurance are all failing. I have already stated once in this thread that after researching every tax I pay I am robbed of 40% of my yearly income. Those of you that researched your own taxes would certainly be surprised at the numbers you come up with. More government control is definitely not the answer when those in control of the government have silver lined pockets my friends. If a man came up to you on the street and placed a gun at your head and pointed to a homeless man on the corner and said he wanted all of your money to give to him because he can not or will not provide for himself is that right? That is exactly what our government is doing to us. I would much rather keep more of my income and give to the man out of the kindness of my heart than be forced with the physical threat of violence to do so!



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Shamanistical

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
Health care should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

Education should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

Adequate nourishment should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.

A roof over you head should be a right, not a privilege. But it is not.


What you propose as a RIGHT implies another human will have to be tasked and enslaved with providing you those rights and that is wrong!!! And immoral!!! It's called involuntary servitude, enslavement!


The whole semantics argument of "rights" aside...those items constitute the basis of civilization, not slavery.

They are the benefits, along with security/defense, that accompany a society or gathering of people.

Everyone contributes and works and in return is guaranteed the fundemantals of survival.

Visit any "primitive" tribe in the present day or read about the tribes of the past...study a little cultural anthropology. You will find these tribes provide their members food, shelter and healthcare, teach the children and take care of thier elderly. It has been a cause for humans to gather together from the birth of the species.

It does not run contrary to capitalism.

even the most ancient or primitive tribes understand the rewards of providing the least of neccessitites for all it's members. A sick hunter will recover if he is cared for and fed during his illness and return to hunting and providing for the tribe. An elderly member, no longer able to hunt has wisdom and knowledge that is valuable that the rest of the tribe does not. Educated children make the entire tribe prosperous...they hunt more efficiently, can identify and find medicine for the tribe members etc.

It's pretty basic when you think about it. We basterdized healthcare when we made it a profit and loss equation. It has no variables that apply to capitalistic economics. If disease or car accidents only happened to the unemployed or the lazy that would be different...but disease and accidents happen to everyone, regardless of economics...Cancer doesn't care about age, intelligence or income.

We bankrupt folks at random in the USA. It is bad for our capitalistic economy...we waste our human capital and create undue suffering. Healthcare does not belong in the mechanics of capitalism...never has.

A nation with universal healthcare is more prosperous and more competitive. It's people are sick less and recover more quickly. Their resources and attention are not focused on base survival on a daily basis, but rather innnovation, working hard, prospering.

A nation whose people are one suprising doctors visit or one car accident away from absolute financial ruin can not compete in the global economy any longer. Enough with the unfounded "socialist" rhetoric. It is an emotional hot-button word you have been programmed to respond to

I love capitalism..I am an economist by education.... I truly love the virtues of capitalism! But healthcare has no place in the equation....never has...the most primitive of tribes understand this....if not for the greediest amongst us derailing our national discourse with words like "Socialist" we would understand this too.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Blah, blah, blah, more right wing hot air, avoiding questions and deflecting truth... You seem to believe that Europe (all 27 very different countries I might add!) is a step away from being the new USSR, based solely on the fact that our Governments foot our medical bills! Oh, the evil of it! God forbid anyone take away your "god given right" to be fleeced by corporate fatcats and be billed thousands simply because you wish to remain alive, the very thought of it!

You honestly don't have a clue, do you? You really do believe the rubbish your typing and that Europe is some Socialist's wet-dream, on the verge of a Dictatorship. I would be very surprised if you have ever been here and if you have, you certainly didn't learn anything from your stay here.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Socialism means government (or common) ownership of ALL or overwhelming majority of the means of production, coupled with severe restrictions on allowed size and growth of private companies.

Communism:

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a stateless and classless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.


From these definitions:
-Government payed basic healthcare and education alternative or other necessary basic services provided or payed by the government ALONGSIDE the commercial alternatives, both to provide for those who cannot afford it, and to encourage competition and provide basic availability and quality / price ratio under which services in question should never fall, is NOT socialism.
-Social democracy is NOT socialism, and is fully compatible with capitalism and ideals of classical liberalism.
-Obama is NOT a socialist.
-Basic income or other forms of welfare is NOT socialism.

Socialism means government ownership of ALL or majority of the means of production, (coupled with severe restrictions on allowed size and growth of private companies). Moderate redistribution of wealth is not socialism. Government does not own ANY means of production, it only redistributes money from one private entity (taxpayer) to another private entity (receiver of benefits or service payed by govt).

Can we please stop comparing apples and oranges?
edit on 30/12/10 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


You can't even answer questions.

Your dishonest attitude towards this thread only confirms an inability to engage in constructive dialogue.

Just like Mr Mirthful, you remain indigent to right-wing dogma.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
Oh, I believe you, just look at the bill in the OP.

If you think it's OK to charge 11 grand for a handful of fairly generic, run of the mill tests, you are beyond help.


The OP has grossly misrepresented the bill, it was immediately cut to $3,000 and he has applied for AHCCCS (Arizona Medicaid) which if he had done in advance (when he fell on hard times) his bill would have been zero, zilch, nada, not a penny... As it is, he has since applied and if he hasn't misrepresented his financial situation, his bill will be reduced to the aforementioned zero, zilch, nada, not a penny...

The truth about this "situation" which has been largely ignored... Deny ignorance indeed...

The amount of bloviating over this lie unfortunate omission resulting in a gross misunderstanding is mind numbing.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:43 AM
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Just some of the countries with "Socialist Healthcare".

Healthcare and education....we need to get our sh&^ together if we are going to compete and suceed like we used to in the world. There is nothing radical or socialist about national healthcare. England, Scotland, Canada, Australia? C'mon folks...stop letting yourself be manipulated.

Argentina
Brazil
Colombia
Greenland
Mexico
Peru
Trinidad and Tobago
Norway
New Zealand
Japan
Germany
Belgium
United Kingdom
Kuwait
Sweden
Bahrain
Brunei
Canada
Netherlands
Austria
United Arab Emirates
Finland
Slovenia
Denmark
Luxembourg
France
Australia
Ireland
Italy
Portugal
Cyprus
Greece
Spain
South Korea
Iceland
Singapore
Switzerland
Israel
Bhutan
Hong Kong
India
Macau
China
Singapore
Thailand
Russia
Scotland
Wales
Australia
New Zealand



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
You seem to believe that Europe (all 27 very different countries I might add!) is a step away from being the new USSR, based solely on the fact that our Governments foot our medical bills! Oh, the evil of it! God forbid anyone take away your "god given right" to be fleeced by corporate fatcats and be billed thousands simply because you wish to remain alive, the very thought of it!





That was awesome mate.

Very funny indeed.




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