reply to post by randyvs
And this is a classic and total example of a God in the gaps logical fallacy... meaning that
it one lacks an understanding of a process, well, then surely it must be God.
Personally I rationalize it all this way... If there is a God, then he, himself, operates within the parameters of his own creation... IE he utilizes
natural law to accomplish his ends. This allows spirituality and observable fact to coexist without contrasting.
~Heff
God did it !, page 1
privacy
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 05:13 PM by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by randyvs
Why are you putting quotation marks on your own slightly distorted paraphrasing? The first law of thermodynamics is the conservation of matter and energy, meaning that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed.
In its present form. It always existed in some form if the first law applies prior to the Big Bang, which we're not entirely sure of.
They had a 50/50 chance on the issue. Either the universe was eternal or it began to exist. Not much of a big deal when they could have tossed a coin on the matter. And when you weigh that against everything else it gets wrong (the entire order and timeframe of creation, the moon as a light, the sun going round Earth, Earth being flat, global flood, etc), it's not all that impressive.
What? Now you're just mixing up terms. You're using nonscientific terms like 'eternal' alongside mathematical terms like 'infinite'. 'Infinite' is in relation to measurements of quantity. An infinite amount of something. Now, you're getting into areas of science that are purely the realm of theoreticians. We aren't sure if the energy existed or not prior to the big bang or if the concept of before or time actually applied until the event happened.
You're obviously trying to imply that this energy had a source. So what was the source for this source? And the source for the source of the source? Etc ad infinitum.
No, there is an appearance to our hominid minds that have an uncanny pattern recognition system that still kicks in when we see things that are clearly undesigned. Or have you not spent a lazy afternoon staring at the clouds and pointing out which clouds look like what?
There also isn't too much precision. Studies have shown that the universe could exist in its present form without one of the fundamental forces of the universe, namely the weak force.
And what order? Please show me an element of design anywhere in the natural world.
That there was either a naturalistic prime mover or other incredibly simple event that kicked off the universe.
A naturalistic prime mover? Maybe a quantum event in the singularity? Maybe the collision of two membranes. I mean, they're all pretty simple.
That's a skewing of Occam's razor. The principle is that the most simple form of an appropriate explanation that accounts for all of the circumstances is the one we must use.
Is not the simplest answer because it posits a being more complex than the thing that is being explained. How is infinite complexity simpler?
Originally posted by randyvs
The first law of thermaldynamics:
" energy is eternal"..
Why are you putting quotation marks on your own slightly distorted paraphrasing? The first law of thermodynamics is the conservation of matter and energy, meaning that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed.
Science has proven the universe didn't always exist.
In its present form. It always existed in some form if the first law applies prior to the Big Bang, which we're not entirely sure of.
Wheather anyone likes it or not the Bible supported this claim long before science got around to proving it.
They had a 50/50 chance on the issue. Either the universe was eternal or it began to exist. Not much of a big deal when they could have tossed a coin on the matter. And when you weigh that against everything else it gets wrong (the entire order and timeframe of creation, the moon as a light, the sun going round Earth, Earth being flat, global flood, etc), it's not all that impressive.
So if the universe didn't always exist, but the energy with in it is eternal. There must be another factor that involves the energy of the universe. Seeing that the energy that is infinite would have to be introduced to the universe being finite.
What? Now you're just mixing up terms. You're using nonscientific terms like 'eternal' alongside mathematical terms like 'infinite'. 'Infinite' is in relation to measurements of quantity. An infinite amount of something. Now, you're getting into areas of science that are purely the realm of theoreticians. We aren't sure if the energy existed or not prior to the big bang or if the concept of before or time actually applied until the event happened.
You're obviously trying to imply that this energy had a source. So what was the source for this source? And the source for the source of the source? Etc ad infinitum.
Granted this source could be just as stupid as any car battery. Seems a totally illogical assumption given the order of things in the universe. The absolute precision of this existence. There is handywork that can be seen in everything. Design to everything we see, smell, touch, taste and experience
No, there is an appearance to our hominid minds that have an uncanny pattern recognition system that still kicks in when we see things that are clearly undesigned. Or have you not spent a lazy afternoon staring at the clouds and pointing out which clouds look like what?
There also isn't too much precision. Studies have shown that the universe could exist in its present form without one of the fundamental forces of the universe, namely the weak force.
And what order? Please show me an element of design anywhere in the natural world.
At this point what is the simplest explanation for these facts to make any sense at all?
That there was either a naturalistic prime mover or other incredibly simple event that kicked off the universe.
What is the one most simple answer, staring you in the face at this very moment?
A naturalistic prime mover? Maybe a quantum event in the singularity? Maybe the collision of two membranes. I mean, they're all pretty simple.
I heard something about the most simple answer, is usually the right answer, somewhere I think.
That's a skewing of Occam's razor. The principle is that the most simple form of an appropriate explanation that accounts for all of the circumstances is the one we must use.
God did it.
Is not the simplest answer because it posits a being more complex than the thing that is being explained. How is infinite complexity simpler?
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 05:29 PM by impaired
reply to post by randyvs
Which god? Your god? The Muslim's god? The New-Age "Great Creator god"? Zeus?
I mean, when people start saying "God did it", I think people should specify and not just that, but be aware that there are indeed other "gods" out there.
Which god? Your god? The Muslim's god? The New-Age "Great Creator god"? Zeus?
I mean, when people start saying "God did it", I think people should specify and not just that, but be aware that there are indeed other "gods" out there.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 05:37 PM by randyvs
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Are you a dancer? I swear you just did everything from the twist, to the mexican hat dance all over my thread. There wasn't even that much to it. Perfectly choreographed and then disected with a state of the art laser or something. How can you make such a mess of simple straight forward logic.?
Oh hey as for the quotation marks. I'm gonna leave em in. For the same reason I didn't erase em. I don't give a crap.
Impaired
I'm sorry I was under the impression there was only one Heavenly Father. Comeback when you're more interesting.
Are you a dancer? I swear you just did everything from the twist, to the mexican hat dance all over my thread. There wasn't even that much to it. Perfectly choreographed and then disected with a state of the art laser or something. How can you make such a mess of simple straight forward logic.?
Oh hey as for the quotation marks. I'm gonna leave em in. For the same reason I didn't erase em. I don't give a crap.
Impaired
I'm sorry I was under the impression there was only one Heavenly Father. Comeback when you're more interesting.
edit on 28-12-2010 by randyvs
because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 05:39 PM by autowrench
Originally posted by impaired
reply to post by randyvs
Which god? Your god? The Muslim's god? The New-Age "Great Creator god"? Zeus?
I mean, when people start saying "God did it", I think people should specify and not just that, but be aware that there are indeed other "gods" out there.
Yeah, I hear you, randyvs, and I have posted all of the names of the Gods and Goddesses in the Bible, but people didn't read, obviously. And most of them were called "Lord." Go figure. Wonder what they would all do is ALL of the Old Gods came back and demanded their devotion, or else? Christians also forget about their Mother too, why is that? After all, She gives and provides them with everything they have, even the paper for their Bibles came from Her trees. No wonder she is so depressed and about to die.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 05:42 PM by WalterRatlos
reply to post by impaired
Of all the gods you mentioned Zeus is my favorite, not only because I am Greek and Zeus was the Chief God of the ancient Greeks, but also because he had such human qualities, like chasing after skirts all the time. Other than that I agree with others here who already pointed out that the OP is a logical fallacy. And to the best of my knowledge science says that we simply don't know what was before the big bang, and what really banged exploding and evolving to the universe we know today. I seem to remember a theory from string theory that two strings banged together and the result was the early universe. No God did not do it, because God does not exist. Feel free to disagree and to believe otherwise.
Of all the gods you mentioned Zeus is my favorite, not only because I am Greek and Zeus was the Chief God of the ancient Greeks, but also because he had such human qualities, like chasing after skirts all the time. Other than that I agree with others here who already pointed out that the OP is a logical fallacy. And to the best of my knowledge science says that we simply don't know what was before the big bang, and what really banged exploding and evolving to the universe we know today. I seem to remember a theory from string theory that two strings banged together and the result was the early universe. No God did not do it, because God does not exist. Feel free to disagree and to believe otherwise.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 06:02 PM by randyvs
reply to post by WalterRatlos
A logical fallacy? Isn't that an oxymoron? What is this? Scrabble anyone ? Somekind of word game?
How about one of you bums rewrite the friggen thing for me? From the same perposterous view point.
A logical fallacy? Isn't that an oxymoron? What is this? Scrabble anyone ? Somekind of word game?
How about one of you bums rewrite the friggen thing for me? From the same perposterous view point.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 06:31 PM by Sinnthia
Originally posted by impaired
reply to post by randyvs
Which god? Your god? The Muslim's god? The New-Age "Great Creator god"? Zeus?
I mean, when people start saying "God did it", I think people should specify and not just that, but be aware that there are indeed other "gods" out there.
I guess we cannot get our answer. So the OP is certain he has proven something about God just not which god. That would seem to invalidate the entire point to me but maybe he just missed the two times this was asked.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 06:42 PM by Allred5923
reply to post by randyvs
The biggest problem with this topic isn't so much one wants to "Perceive" the Biblical quotations as a fact based rhetorical argument, but the one's who usually try to bring these topics of defense to the table fail to see that the biblical analogies are exactly what some of us would consider "Self interpreted misinformed historical analysis by means of millennium's of alterations and removal of vital information" which enhance the self preservation of a deity substructure belief system.
The bible has some of the stories right, or Partially right, but if you follow lineages of any written religious texts, one will find the origin's end up at a place that is unacceptable as the conclusion for the argument of arguments sake, due to the "Religions" factor involved.
Sumer, Assyria, Babylonia, Ancient Egypt and Greece all centrifugally derive with their belief systems and "Lord/God" analogies from the same origin's of conversation "Who ever they were (More than likely Akkadian) had came from above, which is where all the "GOD" ramblings originate from." There are plenty of fringe scientists that have tried to explained these facts even from the late 50's and 60's, but no one wants to accept or rewrite the history books for fear of larger than themselves facts being the correct lineage's of our existence.
The biggest problem with this topic isn't so much one wants to "Perceive" the Biblical quotations as a fact based rhetorical argument, but the one's who usually try to bring these topics of defense to the table fail to see that the biblical analogies are exactly what some of us would consider "Self interpreted misinformed historical analysis by means of millennium's of alterations and removal of vital information" which enhance the self preservation of a deity substructure belief system.
The bible has some of the stories right, or Partially right, but if you follow lineages of any written religious texts, one will find the origin's end up at a place that is unacceptable as the conclusion for the argument of arguments sake, due to the "Religions" factor involved.
Sumer, Assyria, Babylonia, Ancient Egypt and Greece all centrifugally derive with their belief systems and "Lord/God" analogies from the same origin's of conversation "Who ever they were (More than likely Akkadian) had came from above, which is where all the "GOD" ramblings originate from." There are plenty of fringe scientists that have tried to explained these facts even from the late 50's and 60's, but no one wants to accept or rewrite the history books for fear of larger than themselves facts being the correct lineage's of our existence.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 07:02 PM by Byrd
Originally posted by randyvs
The first law of thermaldynamics:
" energy is eternal"..
Err... that's "thermodynamics." And the first law is "energy can be changed from one form to another."
en.wikipedia.org...
It doesn't say 'you can't add energy.'
It doesn't say 'you can't subtract energy.'
It says "It can be changed from one form (potential energy) to another (kinetic energy... and vice-versa.)
So if the universe didn't always exist, but the energy with in it is eternal.
Actually, if it doesn't exist then it doesn't have energy (or shape or form or smell or color or taste or any other attribute.)
The absolute precision of this existence.
If things were precise then there would be no chaos in the system... and there's proveable chaos in the system as well as entropy.
At this point what is the simplest explanation for these facts to make any sense at all?
Depends on what you accept as proof. The simplest explanation is that everything is simply the creation of my own mind and that I will go on to create and sample other lives. You can't disprove this one.
Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or that the universe was created by a sparkly pegasus type thing named "Twinkles" (for the Warcraft addicts, yes I've been playing too much Warcraft and yes I got those silly quests in Tarren Mill. So there.)
If you want something testable and provable then I'm afraid Twinkles and I and all the deities are not going to fit the "testable and provable"... because we have to do it more than once and have it measured.
I heard something about the most simple answer, is usually the right answer, somewhere I think.
No, there's lots of simple and wrong answers.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 07:18 PM by Archangelelijah
reply to post by randyvs
Energy is eternal! Energy is GOD.
The Sun is a birth star which is a young star compared to others in the Galaxy. This creates its own energy. Earth is positioned in the right place to create water. This fusion makes everything similar to a living battery of positive and negative energy. This is why we learn in life like a child attending school.
Sun worship gave humans time via calander rotation of it. The moon gives us cycles.
Everything has numbers from time, money to calculations of everything we do! Numbers are a form of language which is universal.
Religion treats our internal spirit to be positive while the external or physical side to be negative. Fire burns us and this is what we are physically due to the elements of fuel, heat and oxygen which is the fire triangle. It is everything here in Eden while internally we are water.
This is why we require law in life to support us otherwise we would be llike any other animal. Law helps us all to achieve a positive outlook and support due to the negative effects it has on us.
The Pyramids were built by previous technology of a cycle of humans who knew the energy of everything. The Pyramid of Giza is a timeline in stone. The Sphinx represents humans, king of the domain by the meaning of a human head in a lions body (Lion representing the king of the animal kingdom which is Earth).
Man and women are software for the hardware of the Sun (Male) and Earth (Female or mother nature). This is considered a Macro computer in action.
Energy is eternal! Energy is GOD.
The Sun is a birth star which is a young star compared to others in the Galaxy. This creates its own energy. Earth is positioned in the right place to create water. This fusion makes everything similar to a living battery of positive and negative energy. This is why we learn in life like a child attending school.
Sun worship gave humans time via calander rotation of it. The moon gives us cycles.
Everything has numbers from time, money to calculations of everything we do! Numbers are a form of language which is universal.
Religion treats our internal spirit to be positive while the external or physical side to be negative. Fire burns us and this is what we are physically due to the elements of fuel, heat and oxygen which is the fire triangle. It is everything here in Eden while internally we are water.
This is why we require law in life to support us otherwise we would be llike any other animal. Law helps us all to achieve a positive outlook and support due to the negative effects it has on us.
The Pyramids were built by previous technology of a cycle of humans who knew the energy of everything. The Pyramid of Giza is a timeline in stone. The Sphinx represents humans, king of the domain by the meaning of a human head in a lions body (Lion representing the king of the animal kingdom which is Earth).
Man and women are software for the hardware of the Sun (Male) and Earth (Female or mother nature). This is considered a Macro computer in action.
reply posted on 28-12-2010 @ 07:23 PM by Rustami
reply to post by Hefficide
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.-Rom14
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.-1Cor15
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.-Acts10
But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.-Gal4
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby-Eph2
(in Christ) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female-Gal3
For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.-1Cor11
Personally I rationalize it all this way...
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.-Rom14
If there is a God, then he, himself, operates within the parameters of his own creation...
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.-1Cor15
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
IE he utilizes natural law to accomplish his ends. This allows spirituality and observable fact to coexist without contrasting.
God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.-Acts10
But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.-Gal4
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby-Eph2
(in Christ) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female-Gal3
For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.-1Cor11
edit on 28-12-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)
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