Originally posted by Wyn Hawks...one rule/standard has changed... drastic is an exaggeration... its been in the works for years... its
not the first change and it wont be the last... and, yes, any officer refusing to accept any new standard is a poor leader...
No, this is not a new weapons program or uniform we are talking about, we are talking about an issue that to some is a deeply moral and even a
religious one. Ity is to some just as emotional an issue as it is to gays on the other end of the spectrum.
It is in fact a drastic change from not asking people their sexual preference and expecting them to keep such matters private and being expeted to
enbrace and support them openly.
Please tell me what your experiance is with military leadership so that I may consider your accusation in perspective? Have you even been in the
military? Have you Commanded a unit, what size, type and in peace or war? Untill then you are just talking out of your forth point of contact.
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks......everyone affected has had plenty of time to decide if they will abide by the new standard or quit...
the period to contemplate is over...
Can you please tell me when the decision was announced? When it will go into effect and if there is in fact a plan in place to allow those effected to
consider leaving the service on honorable terms if they can pose or prove some moral or religious objection? As far as I know there is no plan
becasue it would likely gut the military strength, which will not be allowed. SO how much time have they had to make thier choice again?
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks...the time of war will never be over..
Do you have access to some classified information perhaps that the rest of us do not that might indicate that the war on terror will never end?
Please enlighten us. The great Barry has given exit dates, why not wait till we have most of the troops our of theater?
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks...its the military, not a country club... if you cannot abide by the rules (old or new) and follow
orders, you bail out and go and join the civilian workforce... simple...
Again, please tell me what your experiance is with military leadership so that I may consider your accusation in perspective? Have you even been in
the military? Have you Commanded a unit, what size or echelon, type and in peace or war? Untill then you are just talking out of your fourth point of
Officers my submit resignations but there is no guarantee they will be accepted, especially if they have incurred an Active duty Service Obligation.
Enlisted Soldiers wtih the exeption of some Senior NCO's enlist for a set time and can not resign. As I stated before there is no plan to all them to
leave honorably if they disagree with the policy.
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks......yep, right idea... the timing is irrelative... the implementation is fine...
Timing is always relevant (which is what I think you meant not irrelative).
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks.........exaggerated nonsense...
No see point above, if they have no chioce other than acceptance then they are in essence being told to "suck it".
Officers my submit resignations but there is no guarantee they will be accepted, especially if they have incurred an Active duty Service
Obligation. Enlisted Soldiers wtih the exeption of some Senior NCO's enlist for a set time and can not resign. As I stated before there is no plan to
allow them to leave honorably if they disagree with the policy it would be bad for the morale and effectiveness.
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks...no... that would have only encouraged the whiners to whine longer and get louder as the time frame
Ask any expert and they will tell you gradual change (or a tiered/stepped aproach) is the best way to do almost anything other than addiction. Even
then if its a physical adiction say to pain medication stpeing down gradually is the best and safest aproach.
Originally posted by Wyn Hawks...fantasy statistics always makes your case look great (sarcasm)...
Much like being a dismissive does not help yours…please don’t be so dismissive in the future it is counter to debate in general. .
Here is where I got my numbers:
Anne Flaherty Associated Press
Overall, the survey found that some two-thirds of troops don’t care if the ban is lifted. Of the 30 percent who objected, most were members of
In fact, at least 40 percent of combat troops said the acceptance of gays serving openly would be a bad idea. That number climbs to 58 percent among
Marines serving in combat roles.
If you want to nit pick my math you are more than welcome but my facts just came from estimating an average between the number of persons who objected
in the combat units poll conducted by the military 40% in general and up to 58% in the Marine Corps. So I was just estimating.
This is where the step based apporach might have been better - just like when se desegregated the military it started with combat support and service
support units and slowly gained acceptance over time.
What Percentage of the Population Is Gay?
The 2000 U.S. Census Bureau found that homosexual couples constitute less than 1% of American households. The Family Research Report says "around
2-3% of men, and 2% of women, are homosexual or bisexual." The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force estimates three to eight percent of both sexes. So
who's right -- what percentage of the population is homosexual?
The disparity in your opinion of the numbers may come from this….(which is in the same article)
It may be that no one will ever know for sure. To some people, homosexuality is a matter of perception and definition. Furthermore, many people
have trouble admitting their homosexuality to themselves, much less to a researcher. But when Gallup asked Americans for their best estimate of the
American gay and lesbian population, the results made all the figures mentioned above look conservative. Every Fifth Person -- at Least
People tend to “believe’ there are more homosexuals than there are…so we are effecting the lives, and careers of a large proportion of
individuals so that a fringe minority can feel good about themselves. Not really cost effective IMO.
So, my 4% number was based on the percentage of the overall population who claim to be gay (I bumped the number a little to be conservative in my
estimate since the data was from 2000).
However, I’d say since minorities in general in the Military are actually underrepresented this would be less than 4%.
Serving in the military is not a right: many people do not qualify for a multitude of reasons – from lack of intellectual ability, to physical
ability to criminal and moral issues and too many dependent children.
It is a privlige not a right - accept that, what is next wheel chair access to tanks or "special needs" barracks for the slow and boarderline menally
edit on 10-1-2011 by Golf66 because: typo