Alien believers: Convince a skeptic

reply to post by KayinAR


I think it's an issue that people take in too much of a black and white manner.

At the end of the day, it remains to be seen whether actual contact has ever taken place, but at the same time it's difficult to completely rule out, when you consider that humans are believed to have evolved around 2 million years ago, and the universe is estimated at around 13.7 billion years old (Lambda-CDM concordance model) - there is an almost certain likelihood that there are intelligent species much more evolved than us - in a universe containing millions of galaxies, each with millions of stars.

The question is, in a universe so vast, why would any exospecies stumble across our planet? Most of the stars in our local cluster would have been formed at a similar time to the sun, and therefore this reduces the likelihood of a much more advanced species having evolved close enough to the earth to be able to pick up on our radioactive footprint in space (tv, radio signals etc), which as part of the EM spectrum would travel at the speed of light. The solar system alone is estimated to be around 2 light years across (Based on the estimated gravitational influence of the sun)

Furthermore Einstein calculated that the energy required for interstellar travel would increase exponentially the closer you get to the speed of light, eventually reaching infinity in practical terms, furthermore reducing the probability of physical contact with a species from a local system. Consider that the Voyager 2 probe was launched in 1977 and has only travelled roughly 0.0015 light years (or 93 Astronomical Units) as of August 2010. It would take a craft of this speed in the region of 64,000 years to reach the closest star Proxima Centauri, which is a red dwarf unlikely to harbour life.

Which leads me to conclude that if any contact has taken place, the chances are that it would have been a species evolved from a more distant star, which seems very unlikely given the huge distances this would involve, when the sun, let alone the earth, is just a speck of sand in the enormous galactic ocean, but, given the huge numbers of stars in our galaxy, cannot be ruled out as impossible.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric

There is nothing to convince you with, because I will tell you the truth. There is no solid evidence of anything...at least that is accessible to anyone you are able to converse with. So, my advice to you is that you simply keep your skepticism, because you have a right to hold it without the evidence that is needed to believe. Otherwise, you'll simply be believing on faith.

I second what this dude has to say, it's not wise to believe something completely on faith. That's really a subjective judgement only you can make, and a burden that shouldn't be placed on anyone of us including your 'boyfriend'.

Just know atleast that, that way of thinking in academia and scientific circles (even being merely open to the possibility) isn't skepticism.

reply to post by rufusthestuntbum


Einstein was limited to understanding the concept, applying our own limited technology and understanding of physics. Ironically, it's also Einstein's ideas that contribute to the concepts of wormholes and other "loopholes" to this time/energy requirement for long space travel.

I think it's safe to say that if we are being visited, it's be beings who utilize a drive mechanism that bends the laws of physics as we currently know them. But doesn't violate some of our own ideas as to how it may be possible, if we had the right kind of energy source.

reply to post by Gazrok


You know, Gazrok, you surprise the hell out of me! You're not just a Moderator, you're a Super Moderator. I thought ATS had higher standards which would not allow just any gullible believer to attain your position, yet here your are! You speak like all of the members here who haven't done an iota of deep research to get through the miasma that normally is found in subjects like this where it's damn the evidence, let's go for the unproven fantasy.

Since you are a Super Moderator, how about you provide some Super Evidence that proves that a UFO reallycrashed near Roswell or, for that matter, anywhere on planet earth. A good start is the list I included in another thread with a lot of alleged crashes yet no evidence surface for any of them. Actually, as much evidence surfaced for them as it has for Roswell.

If a UFO crashed, anywhere, you wouldn't even be here. Possibly, none of us as our lives would have been changed instantly and, yes, it would have gotten out to the public without any government getting involved in hiding the evidence. I can fantasize also.

I think this is a subject that can only be driven by your own convictions. In other words you need to convince yourself, and to what extent. There are a myriad of threads on this topic, among these there are certain cases that are more appealing than others. If you want to believe, endulge yourself in these specific cases, it shouldnt be that hard to believe if the interest is there I guess. But please do so with healthy scepticism, belief is largely walking hand in hand with this though, and is hard to distinguish from the other. Main point, dont ask anyone to do what you can only do yourself.

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by Gazrok

 

You know, Gazrok, you surprise the hell out of me! You're not just a Moderator, you're a Super Moderator. I thought ATS had higher standards which would not allow just any gullible believer to attain your position, yet here your are! You speak like all of the members here who haven't done an iota of deep research to get through the miasma that normally is found in subjects like this where it's damn the evidence, let's go for the unproven fantasy.

Since you are a Super Moderator, how about you provide some Super Evidence that proves that a UFO reallycrashed near Roswell or, for that matter, anywhere on planet earth. A good start is the list I included in another thread with a lot of alleged crashes yet no evidence surface for any of them. Actually, as much evidence surfaced for them as it has for Roswell.

If a UFO crashed, anywhere, you wouldn't even be here. Possibly, none of us as our lives would have been changed instantly and, yes, it would have gotten out to the public without any government getting involved in hiding the evidence. I can fantasize also.

For a moderator, adhering to free speech and tolerance for other people's views is the single most important thing, not their belief system (which does matter if it espouses intolerance).

Skeptics here no matter how voracious they maybe, seem to be tolerated pretty well, it's not the same for believers if they were to hop over to JREF.

ALIEN LIFE HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCOVERED. Scientists have found fossils of past life on mars.
Think of it this way, There are an infinite number of stars in space, There are millions of solar systems, within millions of galaxies, within millions of universes. We know less then a half of a percent of whats out there. Not to mention the possibilities of parallel universes, or other dimensions we are not capable of understanding. Is that enough evidence that there's other life out there besides humans? ; )

reply to post by rufusthestuntbum



You didn't mention the possibility of wormhole travel, which cuts the distances drastically. then you wouldn't need such a large volume of energy, because you wouldn't be traveling the distance, you would just take a short cut through the fabric of space to the other side in an instance.

reply to post by brindle

… a deal was struck that in exchange for advanced technology from the aliens we would allow them to abduct a very small number of persons and we would periodically be given a list of those persons abducted. We got something less than the technology we bargained for and found the abductions exceeded by a million fold than what we had naively agreed to.

Originally posted by Gazrok
(snip)
The only absence of evidence is the ship and the bodies. (snip)

I'd like to use your sentense to support either another thread or just a reply here where I was taken to task for saying that absence of evidence is absence of evidence, i.e., it doesn't exist. I use your sentence because in the Roswell case, there is no ship or bodies. Therefore none will ever be found, negating the "evidence of absence..." argument.

Originally posted by Danstew
reply to post by brindle

 

… a deal was struck that in exchange for advanced technology from the aliens we would allow them to abduct a very small number of persons and we would periodically be given a list of those persons abducted. We got something less than the technology we bargained for and found the abductions exceeded by a million fold than what we had naively agreed to.

Why do you think an "alien civilization" that far more advanced than humans would need to strike a deal with the governments? Couldn't they just do as they please anyway? We wouldn't have any defenses anyhow weather it was voluntary or not.

reply to post by The Shrike


I'd agree with the statement that the absence of evidence is just that, no evidence. And, to my knowledge, I've never stated anyone has come forward with either physical debris or biological specimens....only those that claim to have SEEN or handled said things.

You know, Gazrok, you surprise the hell out of me! You're not just a Moderator, you're a Super Moderator. I thought ATS had higher standards which would not allow just any gullible believer to attain your position, yet here your are! You speak like all of the members here who haven't done an iota of deep research to get through the miasma that normally is found in subjects like this where it's damn the evidence, let's go for the unproven fantasy.

Gullible believer? I went into it expecting to find Mogul a plausible explanation. After examining the evidence...I didn't. I know you've seen the same evidence (and more), as you commented on my Roswell threads, linked to earlier in this thread. From your statements, it sounds like you've done even more hands on research, such as handling the claimed Mogul debris, etc., and I applaud that. You came to a different conclusion than I did...I can respect that. We are each our own person with our own beliefs, ideas, etc. In addition, I think you know I've always valued your input on threads, and rebuttals. (I'm sure if you look back, you'll see you had some Applauses from me, on threads where you really took my statements to task...)

Being a mod here doesn't require any kind of conformity to some kind of "group think" on conspiracy subjects. There are some mods who believe we are being visited, and others who think it's bunk. Just like there are those who think 911 was an inside job, and those who ascribe to the official story, etc. In short, we're as different as the membership, and personally, I think that's a good thing. I was likely chosen as a mod for these reasons: ability to keep a cool head in heated threads, objectivity, a real desire to help members, and a love of the site and what it's about. But of course, the beauty of it all, is that you are free to disagree....

Let me start to say that I am a believer in extraterrestrial life. Inteligent or not (it may even be a plant or tree), capable of space flight or not, doesn't matter. Somewhere out there it has to exist some life form. It may not even be carbon based like we know here on Earth.

You (topic author) being a nurse, have a high level of education, so, just do the maths. Only in our galaxy there are millions of stars with (probably) even higher number of planets. Multiply that number with the billions of galaxies including the millions of stars in each one. Even a skeptic has to wonder on how is it possible to think we are alone !!

A life form even if not inteligent is still a life form (plants), so, if a single tree is found in any planet it means we are not alone and that there are indeen aliens out there. And don't forget, there are most likely life forms that don't require oxygen or water for that matter. Life forms that could exist in the vacuum of space and we haven't found yet.

And no, I didn't have any sort of alien or ufo experience (by the way, alien and ufo are 2 completely different things. Why ? Because i can see a plane in the sky and if I don't recognise it as a plane, it's a ufo to me). I don't need any sort of proof/evidence to think for myself and do some calculation.

Know your numbers, search inside your mind and you'll have the answer you are looking for.

Now a days you have to keep an open mind about almost everything. The sad thing is most scammers know this and that's why, whether it's true or not, there are all these conspircay theories. I for one am open about the fact of Alien life. I have never experienced anything nor will I probably ever. But the science is just too convincing for it not to be possible. There are billions upon billions of galaxies. I truly believe there is other "Human" races on other planets. I also believe that is why Aliens abduct and that's to create us on other worlds. Not sure where you live but some night on a nice dark clear night (preferably in a small town with little lights) take a blanket and just sit and star gaze. There have been MULTIPLE times where I have seen what looks to be a shooting star but then it changes direction within a snap. Not sure what it is or if this can be considered a UFO but to me I can't make out the object as it just looks like a bright star.

It is not to hard to convince a skeptic of this phenomenon if they would stop listening to all the nonsense and focus on credible eyewitness and something we calls LIES which can be absolutely proven through recorded history.Does it give you an alien to look at?No I'm afraid not..You guys focus on aliens instead of obvious lies and obvious cases of real UFOs which eyewitnesses describe.They cannot possibly be all hoaxers and liars and the arguemtns from skpetics are just as dumb,Liek you are not a trained observer to spot UFOS.About as dumb as of an argument thee coudl be,because no one is trained at it.If more than one witness describes a disc shaped object that takes off silently from stand still that is a UFO even if it is the government.If it is the government with that kind of technology that is just as crazy as aliens having it.The most important thing is to study credibilty and who are the liars case by case.

Hi poppet, up until 3 months ago, I had only ever thought of ufo's on occasions and with every day life being constant, I never took it seriously. Then by chance I spotted something so unsual to me, that I googled it and up popped a stream of articles that has now took me on an adventure to new discoveries. I will add that, now all my free time on the computer, I'm either on this site or looking up a link etc. It will become addictive, but it keeps me out of trouble........smiles..... The research you will undertake will take you to many places in your field of thought and world view, and you will have many doubts and with many tuts, shouting fake at the screen. Remember, one thought will take you to another, then another as you search for your truth. Many threads on here are well debated, some end up with a rant with one or two game players. My thinking has changed by using this site. My research has been easier with the links other members display.
You and your bf will explore and debate many aspects of this world. But what a great hobby to have together.

sussy xx

Hello Just want to see where you are at in this.. so of course you know we are not at the center of the universe, you probably know too the world is not flat...and we are not alone in the vast universe...that is the one you are still working on, right. I think of it this way. The Oceans of the world are like space , the continents and Islands are like planets. At one time our ancestors walked down to the shore and looked out over the ocean and thought, is there anyone over on the otherside, just like people look up at the stars and think the same. As paddled outriggers gave way to sails which gave way to steam, which gave way to nuclear power. Going from continent to continet became easy. We too will find that traveling umung the stars will be easy someday. Actually from a totally Moon standpoint we have already been ETs ourselves, we have traveled to a foreign planet in a space ship. We are viewing the milkyway Galaxie we live on a verticle plain. If you looked down on the Milkyway Galaxie you would see that it has about 8 or so spires or arms. One of thos rams you could draw a line to like people do on a vacation post card of their Hotel...we are here. It just is impossible for me to beleive that the rest of those arms or spires are vaccant..or even the rest of ours and of course the rest of space. It is just that so many credible people have seen something. We are just a tiny speck in the sky just like all the tiny specks we can see.

easy way to convince a skeptic..


Humans really do not understand nor for that matter agree with life. Nor do we even understand our purpose here, being a skeptic that aliens do not exist, or even things existing the human mind cannot understand nor sense is ignorant in a way, don't you think? In order to live it is important to have an open mind, being closed minded at the things you do not understand or think you understand prevents you from really understanding what it is you think you understand. It is easier to be a skeptic or a critic or what some would say a watcher of life, instead of trying to understand it. In either case I do not think it is something of importance if it were we would already understand everything.

i like the ancient alien series thats on history channel i think. very interesting ..ive watched most of them..but i dont see anything so far as "proof" either you believe or you dont.. like you i came to ats just looking for aliens and thing but now Im interested in a lot more here than just that..

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by The Shrike

 

I'd agree with the statement that the absence of evidence is just that, no evidence. And, to my knowledge, I've never stated anyone has come forward with either physical debris or biological specimens....only those that claim to have SEEN or handled said things.

You know, Gazrok, you surprise the hell out of me! You're not just a Moderator, you're a Super Moderator. I thought ATS had higher standards which would not allow just any gullible believer to attain your position, yet here your are! You speak like all of the members here who haven't done an iota of deep research to get through the miasma that normally is found in subjects like this where it's damn the evidence, let's go for the unproven fantasy.

Gullible believer? I went into it expecting to find Mogul a plausible explanation. After examining the evidence...I didn't. I know you've seen the same evidence (and more), as you commented on my Roswell threads, linked to earlier in this thread. From your statements, it sounds like you've done even more hands on research, such as handling the claimed Mogul debris, etc., and I applaud that. You came to a different conclusion than I did...I can respect that. We are each our own person with our own beliefs, ideas, etc. In addition, I think you know I've always valued your input on threads, and rebuttals. (I'm sure if you look back, you'll see you had some Applauses from me, on threads where you really took my statements to task...)

Being a mod here doesn't require any kind of conformity to some kind of "group think" on conspiracy subjects. There are some mods who believe we are being visited, and others who think it's bunk. Just like there are those who think 911 was an inside job, and those who ascribe to the official story, etc. In short, we're as different as the membership, and personally, I think that's a good thing. I was likely chosen as a mod for these reasons: ability to keep a cool head in heated threads, objectivity, a real desire to help members, and a love of the site and what it's about. But of course, the beauty of it all, is that you are free to disagree....

If you don't mind, Gazrok, I'd like to start off by telling the members coming to this thread that I apologized privately to you for being disrespectful in my reply to you.

Now, the problem with Roswell, the Ramey memo, et al, is that there are at least 2 camps: the camp of believers and the camp of skeptics. While I fall in the camp of skeptics, but not a skeptic 100% of the time, I'm very well read on Roswell and have been since 1980 although I had basic knowledge in 1957. One can employ common sense, logic, and reason and come to a conclusion based on the offered evidence versus what transpires on the planet, UFOlogy-wise.

Even if I hadn't been told about Roswell in 1957, but in more detail starting in 1980 as far as books but UFO-wise really back to 1959 when I got discharged and started to attend UFO lectures in NYC, and they were aplenty! I remember one lecture about UFO propulsion and it was so well presented that at the end of the lecture when the speaker ended with "And so it flies" the whole audience got up and burst into applause, me included. So I was taken up (so to speak) in the excitement of the time.

Then in 1980 I read the first book on the subject, "THE ROSWELL INCIDENT" by Charles Berlitz and William L. Moore. I attended the lecture by Charles Berlitz and even volunteered to go with him anywhere in the world that he went to just to get into the excitement he was famous for. However, I did not accept the findings in the book as being factual for even then I knew that if a UFO had really crashed, it would not have been swept under the carpet to reappear 33 years and reported by people such as Berlitz whose books I had read and who I knew was not reporting fact but fantasy. Roswell had to be fantasy for if it hadn't been and as I like to say, our world would have changed in 1947.

What drives people to go against common sense, I don't know. Perhaps it's that ol' mind conditioning that makes people believers and my mind was never conditioned to accept anything without irrefutable evidence, especially in 1964 when I became what my teacher called me, an excellent hypnotist. I knew how minds are affected. I did some affecting.

So, I'm not going to argue Roswell from a balloon point of mind, it could have been Mogul #2, 3, 4, or 69! There are certain things we will never learn about. But I'd rather put my money on those who were involved with such, such as the respected Professor Moore. I was not aware of the state of the world in 1947 when I was just 9 years old but in 1955 when at 17 I enlisted in the Air Force, I did some fast growing up. Tensions between the U.S. and Russia were palpable and during basic training when they pulled a fast one on us basic trainees by announcing during a class that we were on alert because the Russians had just bombed a base and we didn't know if a bomb was aimed at us, that helped understand what happened at Roswell and why they had to lie about the secret spying projects which relied on balloon trains.

I'm too old to side with the young 'uns at accepting that a UFO crashed near Roswell. That myth is milked by anyone who can convince the easily convinced gullible. I'm not one of them.