Obama Returns to End-of-Life Plan That Caused Stir

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Here's what I get when I click on the link in the OP:

That's great and all, but it has nothing to do with my post. I don't come to ATS to have to lead others by the hand. You are the one who poo pooed the quoted text in my post, while ignoring the context.

Whatever.

Originally posted by kozmo
Obamacare supporters, answer me this... If everyone already makes their own decisions, and they make them based on information from their doctors, and they are free to choose from all of the options, then why in the hell do we need a law or worse yet, a regulation that mandates something that is apparently already happening?

The problem with government is that they have tendency to impose regulations where regulations aren't necessary!

The health care law doesn't mandate end-of-life counseling. It simply requires that doctors may be PAID by Medicare, Medicaid and other insurers for providing it. At this time doctors receive no reimbursement for their counseling.

At least understand what the law says.

reply to post by centurion1211

So, what's your opinion on government mndated end of life "counseling" - which of course will turn into forced decisions on senir citizen care?

What I don't understand is, how does the giving of information translate into forced decisions? Exactly how does information FORCE people to decide one way or another? The idea that giving people more information equates to forcing them into hospice or translates into government run death panels is insane.

It's just a giant leap of logic off the edge of reality.

reply to post by kozmo


Ok, I'll try and take it slow for you...

You said...

If everyone already makes their own decisions, and they make them based on information from their doctors, and they are free to choose from all of the options, then why in the hell do we need a law or worse yet, a regulation that mandates something that is apparently already happening?

Then, I said.

Because a part of this law is, Insurance companies can no longer drop a paying customer because they get sick.

Which is what insurance companies were doing anyway without the law. So, is that what should be done, the insurance companies should have the right to drop someone because the treatment for them is too expensive? THAT would be the real death panels.

Basically you were talking about the health care law overall, not this subject. So, I answered you, as you know of course that the health care law itself doesn't have the controversial "End of Life/Death Panels" part in it. So, you weren't speaking on the subject yourself. But, I tried to answer you, you didn't like that answer, so instead of talking on the subject itself, you decided to go off on the whole law.

reply to post by whatukno


You don't understand how?

Look at what any government agency - especially federal - does and how it operates. See how it starts as something small in the beginning and then keeps adding power, regulations and bureaucrats.

If you do that, I'm confident that you will understand the fear many have about yet another federal agency - this time enforced by the IRS (!) - and this time interested in all of our medical care.

Think about it - really think about it.

Originally posted by GirlGenius
Duplicate but I will add that anyone who makes an important treatment or end-of-life decision on the basis of one doctor's opinion or recommendation is a fool.

edit on 26-12-2010 by GirlGenius because: (no reason given)

So, it's your belief that people will be swayed into these end-of-life decisions that they're told about by their doctors, and that they'll make rash decisions BASED ON ONE DOCTOR'S OPINION?

LOL!

It's garbage, OP. The whole death panels thing has been garbage from day one. Don't buy into it.

reply to post by centurion1211


After thinking about it. I still see no reason why more information equates into "Death Panels".

I think that conservatives have this backwards, this "Obamacare" doesn't ration care, that's what insurance companies have been doing all along with Republicans blessing. Denying people care because it's not in the insurance companies best interests.

However, on this subject, it's actually in the doctors best interests financially to try and persuade someone to accept some sort of treatment (even if it doesn't or won't work) for as long as possible because that way the doctor can make more money. Having a patient choose Hospice cuts into a doctor's bottom line.

cant access ny times.

reply to post by GirlGenius


While they are at it they should legalize prostitution for senior citizens in government sponsored nursing homes lol. Cmon what better way to go out? Who wants a shriveled up significant other? Get a young nut to go out like everybody should want to, or maybe audio libraries too. So you can listen to "the KJV Bible" while you are enjoying some government sponsored and paid "easer of pain and suffering" prostitute/companion.

What a way to create new jobs. The pay would be ridiculous of course and full benefits. Hey polygamy should be legalized too, while were at it. Polygamy would create family units more than capable of handling severe down economic conditions. Legalize gay marriage, why not? Cmon homos should be allowed to suffer like everyone else AND think of all the shopping they would do together.

Legalize drugs of course, that speaks for itself. Lot of money in that. Instead trying to tax the product, tax the legal use of it. Anyone who wishes to use drugs must have a "license" to do so and must pay a certain tax. When that person with the "drug license" is using, they can provide their drug license to show they are paying tax. Think of all the drug trafficking and legal tender that can be spent in America. Obamacare will take care of the addictions and rehab stuff lol.

The answers are simple, lets create a new babylon out of america, and enjoy our vices in order to prosper nationally in regards to the economy. Maybe we can have like certain areas that this drug use is encouraged, like certain bars, clubs and etc.

That would also set religion in overdrive and they will make more money and spend more money at the same time. LOL its perfect and God would agree this is the way to fix the economy. We can commemorate this change in policy by unveiling the new world order HEMP flag and give the people what they want; the capacity to make the decision to f up their lives without some "authority" punishing them.

Its highly profitable. Peace

believe it or not some people trust their doctors. and if their doctors recommend premature end of life options they naively and innocently believe it

truth is most doctors in america are blood-sucking, greedy egomaniacs. the truth is health is a business in america. you have to treat doctors like you would treat any business transaction.

treat them like your employee. you're paying for it, if your not satisfied demand that they do their best or tell them to f--k off.

do research, people do more research on their hdtv, than on what the doctor is capable or not capable in doing to treat a condition.

that's the sad state of healtcare in america, it's basically come down to the same level as buying a turnip at a grocery store, except turnips get treated better.

Originally posted by randomname
believe it or not some people trust their doctors. and if their doctors recommend premature end of life options they naively and innocently believe it

No, I do not believe it. I do not believe people will just go off themselves because their doctor or anyone else in a white coat suggested it was a good idea.

I am perfectly open to the concept that I am wrong on this so I will await whatever evidence you have to base that kind of claim on. Apparently you and the OP think everyone is just a stupid turnip waiting to be told when to end it and need to be coddled like the idiot children they are. I eagerly await learning of the population that will opt for suicide because it was suggested by their doctor.

Then you can explain why their doctor would be suggesting it but baby steps.

Health care is going to hell. My mother who has insurance coverage went to the ER 5 times with chest pains over the course of a year. Her doctor told her to go there if a chest pain came on. Soon as she got into the ER they ran the EKG, blood work, then sent her home. The cardiologist she had ran every test on her and claimed they couldn't find anything wrong with her. She begged for an angiogram. They said she didn't need it. They refused to do it. She nearly died when the six episode of chest pain hit her. They finally got her into cathlab and found blocks. THAT my friends is the death panels you need to fear. The crap that they call medical care. She is under a different dr now who says all the time to me that she is a miracle. She should have been dead.

They put her into temporary in hospital care - for physical therapy after the big surgery. They treated my mother really bad. She had to go to the bathroom and the nurse on call in the middle of the night told her "just go in your bed and I'll clean it up in a minute".

This is what insurance pays for now. You are a number, and you'll always be a number.

Moral of story here is, you have to be your own champion. Or enlist someone to stand up when you can't. My mother would not allow me to get into her medical concerns. Now I do and I do not back down.

reply to post by GirlGenius


GirlGenius, your getting beat up a bit on this thread aint ya?

I think you've pulled some of the worst Obama loyalists out of the closet!


You are ENTIRELY correct about the "white coat" having weight...especially at a stressfull time.

If it didnt have at least a ting of psych value, why would they use "doctors" on commercials to hawk the latest pill?

Answer that obama folks?

If a doctor wanted to suggest something, he would. He doesnt need to have a "kick back" from the feds.

You take a person that is say, 65. Not terribly old in my book. They have a weird disease/ailment and they are

1. scared out of their mind.
2. depressed (ESPECIALLY if they are in pain).
3. very vulnerable to suggestion.

I dont give a rats butt WHO you are, you get into a situation like this and YOU will be a candidate for a bad decision.

Of course, the progressives would have us all join into to a "logans run-esque" carousel situation at a certain age and just be vaporized.

Screw'em all!

dble post

reply to post by GirlGenius


Obama the leader of the United States of America BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHWHWHHWHAHWAHABWBAWHAWHAWAHWWBWAHAWHAHAWHAAHWHAAHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! !!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by minigunner
Ask yourself this one thing: If it was so warm and cozy in the first place, within the messed up Obama care, then why was it dropped?

Because the Republicans made a huge deal of it, labeled it "death panels", lied about it and scared the people into thinking that Obama wants to kill off the old people. Weren't you there?

Truth is, Republicans first championed this legislation years ago. They were for it before they were against it.

Source

Yes, that's right. Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!

Let's go to the bill text, shall we? "The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary's need for pain and symptom management, including the individual's need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning." The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill.

So either Republicans were for death panels in 2003 before turning against them now--or they're lying about end-of-life counseling in order to frighten the bejeezus out of their fellow citizens and defeat health reform by any means necessary.

That's why it was taken out. Do you KNOW how politics work?

Originally posted by GirlGenius
So, they are sneaking it by us anyway. What a surprise!

“Advance care planning improves end-of-life care and patient and family satisfaction and reduces stress, anxiety and depression in surviving relatives,” says the administration, citing recent research.

While it's wonderful that they care about us, it would be great if they would stop treating us like children. This is something that families can decide for themselves without pressure from the medical "authorities".

You are correct in your assessment of this crapola GG. The only stress this reduces on the survivors is the stress on their pocket books. Those that are trying to sell that this is all about "choices" will likely not be making these "choices" themselves. This is the Socialist answer to too many people living too long. "Don't be a burden on your family." "Don't be a burden on the system." They can go to hell. Rather than admit the fact that Social Security and the like were all FDR/globalist Ponzi schemes, they will nibble away at these programs that owe pay outs to the taxpayers that payed in at near gunpoint, with the false belief that their NWO controlled government was on the level. If only the creeps that have sold these bag of crap programs for nearly a century would retire at "65" and off themselves er.... I mean choose to "go gentle into that good night" at their "health care professional's urging"..... I'm thinking Jimmy Carter, Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Bush (any and all), pick a globalist, any globalist..... I can dream can't I?

Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieve it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

- Dylan Thomas

The globalist puppets have convinced many that their instincts were and are wrong.
Prior to all of this nanny state nonsense people cared for their families and community.
Prior to FDR, "retirement" was unheard of. Your life's work was your "life's work".
Caring for yourself and your own was as regular and as dependable as today's payroll deductions.
The ongoing Ponzi schemes...... government programs have robbed families and communities of
their wealth and so caring for you and yours has been made difficult if not impossible for many.
Thus our current crisis. Freedom and prosperity start with responsibility. Some of us knew that.

Ok lets say person:a is brain dead the family wants person:a alive but the doctor can go ahead and pull the plug because keeping someone alive who is brain dead is unethical. Imagine being stuck to your body unable to think unable to leave because members of your family could not deal with your passing and thus are playing god by keeping you here.

So this isn't as bad as you are making it out to be, the doctor is merely giving the options, you cannot save everyone, plus we are over populated in a bad economic time, so this would be the logical choice of what would be needed to be done, no point crying over it, sometimes I think human beings are too emotional, it blinds you from the bigger picture.

reply to post by Anthony1138


There is NOTHING in this legislation about the doctor's ability to make this decision for the family. He can not. Keeping an unresponsive person alive is TOTALLY up to the person's living will OR up to the family. Any decision would be made by them, NOT the doctor. The doctor would just be discussing options with his patients before they become injured or unresponsive.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by minigunner
Ask yourself this one thing: If it was so warm and cozy in the first place, within the messed up Obama care, then why was it dropped?

Because the Republicans made a huge deal of it, labeled it "death panels", lied about it and scared the people into thinking that Obama wants to kill off the old people. Weren't you there?

Truth is, Republicans first championed this legislation years ago. They were for it before they were against it.

Source

Yes, that's right. Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!

Let's go to the bill text, shall we? "The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary's need for pain and symptom management, including the individual's need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning." The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill.

So either Republicans were for death panels in 2003 before turning against them now--or they're lying about end-of-life counseling in order to frighten the bejeezus out of their fellow citizens and defeat health reform by any means necessary.

That's why it was taken out. Do you KNOW how politics work?

Yah, Republicans gave counseling to terminally ill patients and Democrats gave it to patients before they were terminally ill.
And you were saying?

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by kozmo

 

Because a part of this law is, Insurance companies can no longer drop a paying customer because they get sick.

Course, conservatives want these Insurance companies to be able to drop people. They like the idea of someone who is sick and needs treatment to just either go bankrupt, or die.

And so the only way Insurance companies can get customers/patients off their books is to "off" them early and often. Conservatives, liberals, there is only one political party. They work both ends against the middle, us.