Pentagon - No camera footage = No plane. A reasonable assumption.

reply to post by dubiousone

Psychological biases such as your now dreaded "confirmation bias" apply across the board to trusters, such as yourself, and not only to those engaged in a sincere search for truth and justice ("truthers").

Not quite. Confirmation Bias involves the state of mind where the misinformed will give more weight to palpably false information and ignore factually correct information in order to maintain their bias.

This describes "truthers", who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the photo of a 96 foot hole in the wall and continue to use a cropped and misleading image of a pair of windows as "proof" that the hole is only 18 foot wide (among many other factual 'anomalies'). They draw the conclusion, and then look for stuff that supports that confusion, and reject anything that does not support it. They invent fantasies, then they invent twisted scenarios that works in their fantasy. They make accusations of mass murder and political bribery on a scale so grand there must be a bank of supercomputers in the Pentagon to keep track of it all. And provide no evidence, but every time there is an international sneeze, it somehow demonstrates the depth of the conspiracy.

"Trusters", on the other hand, are recognized by their insistence on science, engineering, evidence, critical thinking, and acknowledging error and uncertainty to form their opinion.

this is a very well put together thread . i agree with you that it most surely was not an airliner that hit the pentagon. i have heard stories that it was a missile and in respect to the world trade centre i was told that it may have been a hologram projection and explosives. with respect to the sound of an airliner flying low i think LRAD played a role here. seeing is not always believing but throw sound into the mix and bang!

reply to post by spikey

I also don't understand how Flight 77 is supposed to be able to be both like a flying aluminium soda can, relatively weak iow, which is often used as an explanation as to how a large passenger aircraft can simply, more or less disintegrate upon impact with a reinforced concrete wall, and yet tough enough, to allow the flimsy nose cone to impact the exterior reinforced concrete wall, travel through the office, out of the office, through two more double walls, finally 'punching out' a nice, circular, nose-cone shaped hole of the last wall...

How does that work exactly?

There is no recognizable piece of the 'nose cone' outside the punch-out hole, IIRC. There is a piece of the front landing gear (about the most massive item in the nose) and a sheet of flight deck window surround. The survival of the window surround is amazing, sure, but it is definitely not the nose cone. The flight deck is several feet (several microseconds?) behind the nose cone

Again, IIRC the flight deck hit at just about the level of the floor deck between the 1st and 2nd floors, at a slight angle, port side low. The floor deck would have sliced the flight deck in two and the two halves would have taken different paths through the inferno.

reply to post by spikey

Especially how, when many of 'goodoldave's' precious eyewitnesses he/she keeps repeating to people, have testified that they saw the nose cone buckle upwards, and disintegrate...

That would have been physically impossible to see. The fireball was microseconds after the nose hit and would have obscured any such detail.

Can you provide a link to that testimony, please?

Originally posted by rnaa
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

Did you think I was trying to pass them off as REAL??

No.

I was giving a rendition of what (probably) happened and why there are no more videos made available.

That is the hogwash part.

That's the way you feel and that's okay. But just remember how the entire world felt when JFK was shot by that fatal shot by Oswald only to see now that that is 100% not true.

So we'll see in time, confession or another slip up.

Just because we were fed a lie doesn't make it true.

But I will say this (sorry OP, I don't mean to segue off topic but I can't find another thread on this so, I apologize)......I can't figure out the lamp post conspiracy. I understand the missile came in one way....the plane flew in to its north (or something confusing like that) but why involve the lamp posts?

Why didn't the plane (from the north), just fire off its missile and call it a day? Why involve 5 southern lamp posts and more cover up?

Although I believe (no, I KNOW) 9-11 is filled with lies, the lamp post part just isn't adding up especially with poor old cab driver Lloyde England involved.That poor soul was duped with a capitol "F" I think he was brainwashed some how.

He KNOWS he was on the north side (of Columbia) but yet they put him on the south side(with photos and all)
Why? Why make Operation September-Northwood more difficult?

Anyone?

reply to post by spikey


I can't resist this question because of your avatar and all.

Since this is the biggest conspiracy in the history of the world, why is there no mention of any of this in the Wikileaks papers?

I mean after, they detail how the White House lied to convince the public of the necessity of the war (confirming what we already knew, but anyway), but no mention of the biggest lie of all? Nobody complaining that they missed their most recent bribe installment? Nobody getting jailed for something and rolling over on the plot? No British Cabinet congratulations and promises to keep their side of the agreement? No references to the operational debriefing? Something? Anything?

Originally posted by rnaa
reply to post by spikey

 

Especially how, when many of 'goodoldave's' precious eyewitnesses he/she keeps repeating to people, have testified that they saw the nose cone buckle upwards, and disintegrate...

That would have been physically impossible to see. The fireball was microseconds after the nose hit and would have obscured any such detail.

Can you provide a link to that testimony, please?

Sure i can.

Give me a bit of time and i'll update this post k?

Thanks for the 'please' by the way, manners are quite rare around these topics.

Cheers.

ETA; Can't find it at the moment, i'll do a new post and PM you when i do.

its just amazing the amount of people that believe in 3 frames of nothing as proof of a plane

this is a joke, these people deserve the leaders they have

Originally posted by Faiol
its just amazing the amount of people that believe in 3 frames of nothing as proof of a plane

this is a joke, these people deserve the leaders they have

Absolutely! We Americans (with our complacent compliant foolery) deserve EXACTLY what we're getting. And because Truthers were looked upon as lunatics 6-8 years ago, now that over 75% of Americans think 9-11 was an inside job......we lost our opportunity to speak up and revolt out! Because now it's almost illegal to publicly voice your opinion against this Orwellian government.

So, like Faio said, you (we) are getting exactly what you (we) deserve only, you pulled us (Truthers) down with you! You should've listened to your internal voice of reason and common sense meter back then.

Originally posted by xavi1000
Big Lol , you debunk yourself with your post ,most secure building in the nation and hit by a plane 30 minutes after two planes hit the twin towers .Are fighter jets going 10 mp/h ?

Debunk myself?... You can't debunk people Sherlock, you can only try to debunk arguments, that first... Second of all, just because it was attacked it doesn't mean that it is not or was not a secured building because it happens to be THE PENTAGON. Do you know what the Pentagon is? Perhaps you should do a little research as to what the Pentagon is...

Third of all but not least what exactly did you want them to do, fire upon every passenger plane all over the U.S. at random if they were close to a skyscrapper, or if such passenger aircraft was anywhere close to any valuable target?... They would have to shoot down pretty much EVERY passenger plane in the U.S.A. Sherlock...

There were no contingencies for shooting at passenger planes, and much less within a large metropolitan area in the first place Sherlock, not to mention that they could not know exactly how many planes had been taken hostage...

Keep laughing out loud, people like you seem to think you are intelligent but obviously you are not.

I heard that a helicopter crashed at the Pentagon on that day.....don't know if there was any truth to it though.

reply to post by rnaa


That's a very good question, and one that is *probably* the reason so many in the US are doing their absolute nut about what WL may have and have not waiting to be released.

Don't forget, that only a very small % of the cables have been released so far, hundreds of thousands to yet be released.

Nobody said they would be released in order of perceived importance..there may be nothing related to 9/11, especially if no diplomats were openly exchanging comments about it, but then again, there may be a lot of information waiting to be revealed...although i would expect it would mainly consist of personal opinion and off handed comment if there is.

Hopefully, someone in the 'know' blabbed and there is a record of it waiting to *change the world* as WL put it, we'll have to wait and see.

Good point though, and i am hoping there is a lot of revealing information on 9/11 either in amongst the cables, or locked up in the 'insurance file'.

I'm curious though, you say that the US government lied to get the US to go to war (and the UK too), and that we all know that now, yet you believe the crap they put out about 9/11?

If they lied in order to take several countries to war, and all the death and misery (despite being very profitable) that has gone hand in hand with that deceit, how can they be believed on what they put out about 9/11?

Covering up 'lost' $2.3 Trillion, the evidence of which was at the *exact* location in the Pentagon that was hit, and now obviously destroyed and irretrievable, together with the invention of a new enemy to replace the old Soviet Union, is a very strong motive to plan and execute this attack...why would you take for gospel what proven liars tell you is the truth?

I just don't get it.

reply to post by spikey


I see your point but if Wikileaks has what you are assuming.....can you imagine what would unfold? All those in power at the time of 9/11 would be hunted down like dogs and.....well, let's not even go there!

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by spikey

 

I see your point but if Wikileaks has what you are assuming.....can you imagine what would unfold? All those in power at the time of 9/11 would be hunted down like dogs and.....well, let's not even go there!

Well, i'd certainly *hope* they would be hunted down and punished for what they did.

If WL has the information, and it's by no means certain that they do, but *if* they have it, then everyone involved in either the planning or execution or even the subsequent cover up, deserve to suffer the full weight of the law and applicable punishment to be metered out to them.

No lynch mobs, no riots, no public hangings, just the law and the punishment prescribed for crimes of high treason, and war crimes.

reply to post by spikey


What "IFs".....

you know that is not going to happen, IF such a thing unfolds you know and I know there is going to be a major revolution in the USA and with that comes some rioting on a huge grand scale.

reply to post by spikey

I'm curious though, you say that the US government lied to get the US to go to war (and the UK too), and that we all know that now, yet you believe the crap they put out about 9/11?

There is no contradiction between the too.

There is actual evidence about Government lies about Iraq. That evidence exposes the Bush gang as completely incompetent when it comes to conspiracy; they couldn't even keep the secret even when only a few dozen people were conspirators. I mean, really, these guys couldn't figure out how to dump water out of their boots if the instructions were written on the heal.

How does that work when you have to keep tens of thousands quiet for the next 200 years?

reply to post by spikey


Yeah, I missed a few motives, and in hindsight I forgot to mention the vanishing $2T, Patriot Act, Patriot Act 2, Homeland Security Act, the TSA, biometrics, a $600B+ defense budget, disaster capitalism, the Global War on Terrorism crusade, re-insurance of the towers just weeks prior to the event. I didn't want to railroad the thread, but I think we are able to stay relatively close to topic.

reply to post by spikey

Covering up 'lost' $2.3 Trillion, the evidence of which was at the *exact* location in the Pentagon that was hit

It was in the Navy Command Center's Weather Office?

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by spikey

 

What "IFs".....

you know that is not going to happen, IF such a thing unfolds you know and I know there is going to be a major revolution in the USA and with that comes some rioting on a huge grand scale.

I would hope that would not be the case.

Rioting and such is never good for anyone. It solves nothing and only gives the bad guys ammunition to crush the public even further.

I would expect there to be plenty of justified outrage, and many fingers pointed, some justified and some not so justified, but in any event, the guilty would get theirs, and more importantly than any revenge or retribution that would be directed at the guilty, it would necessitate a drive towards transparency of government and the political arena, such that something similar couldn't happen again.

Or at least, i'd hope it would.

reply to post by rnaa

There is no contradiction between the too.

Pardon?

How can there not be?

Once a liar, always a liar.

They lie about reasons for war that has resulted in the direct deaths and maiming of upwards of 1.5 million men, women and children in both Iraq and Afghanistan, including international servicemen and women, cost in $ terms to the taxpayer? Roughly $1.5 Trillion ($1.05 as of Jan 2010) as of now.

Who benefited the most financially? Certainly not the Iraqi or Afghan people, or the US taxpayers...follow the money trail and who is connected to those corporations and what political influence they may have had is the way to go on that score i guess.

But now, we have evidence for the lies as you say..so now we know absolutely they lied their heads off..but before you knew they lied, did you argue the toss supporting those that argued they didn't lie?

Whatever, now there are millions of people around the world, claiming they lied again, about 9/11, but you still support those that argue they are not lying...you're an intelligent poster, don't you see the pattern here?

Look, i'm not trying to convince you of anything, it's probably *the* single hardest thing to do, when someone has firmly made up their minds, so it's pretty futile, but bear in mind, before the evidence of their lies to get us into war was discovered, they were..telling the truth..weren't they?

I respect your opinion, but i really don't understand it.

Cheers anyway.