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Possibly a silly question - but just wondering WHO ultimately owns the global debt ?

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posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 04:48 AM
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I was just reading in a current thread that the US was carrying a debt of approximately $13.85 Trillion and that the Eurozone was carrying a debt of approximately $3.2 Trillion.
Coupled with the fact that recently Greece and Ireland had to be bailed out of potential bankruptcy, this had me asking myself one very simple question ...

"Who ultimately owns the debt ?"

And truthfully, I had to admit that I have no idea whatsoever.

Now, I readily admit to having next to no knowledge of how the international economic system works but I do know it's possibly become so incredibly complex and is now beyond any one persons understanding ... and most likely that it's taken on a life or existence of it's very own.

But I suppose what I'm looking for is essentially an Economics 101 or a Dummies Guide to Global Economics type of answer. An answer that points the finger squarely at such and such an organization, group, government, etc as being the ultimate holders of the global debt.

I guess I'm looking at it as such ...

Person A wants to borrow a sum of money from person B
but
person B doesn't have the required amount and so tries to borrow it from person C
but
person C also doesn't have the required amount and eventually acquires it from person D who does have the money.

So in my mind, while person A eventually receives the loan from person B, the actual holder of the final debt is in reality person D.

What I'd like to know is just who or what is "person D" as regards the massive global debt.

My apologies in advance if this is a ridiculous question to be asking but like I mentioned, I'm no one's economic genius




posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 04:51 AM
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Not a silly question at all !

Because truthfully I have no idea either and that is very, very sad indeed



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by afoolbyanyothername
 


Who pays the debts of those financial institutions etc?

YOU and ME

HELLO!!!!!



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 05:06 AM
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Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername
 


Who pays the debts of those financial institutions etc?

YOU and ME

HELLO!!!!!


Is that a fact ? Really ??

Strange that I haven't noticed my direct or indirect tax burdens increasing significantly if I'm helping to repay the global communities burgeoning financial debt.
edit on 25-12-2010 by afoolbyanyothername because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 05:16 AM
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The U.S. owns:

15. Russia – 128.1 billion

14. Depository Institutions – 145.4 billion

13. Hong Kong – 146.2 billion

12. Brazil – 157.1 billion

11. Insurance Companies – 162.2 billion

10. Caribbean Banking Centers – 179.8 billion

9. Oil Exporter Nations – 187.7 billion (list includes Ecuador, Venezuela, Indonesia, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Gabon, Libya, and Nigeria)

8. United Kingdom – 277.5 billion

7. Pension Funds – 490.2 billion (includes private retirement accounts and governmental pension accounts as well)

6. State and Local Governments – 528. 3 billion

5. Mutual Funds – 694.5 billion

4. Japan 757.3 billion

3. China (mainland) – 789.6 billion

2. Other Investors/Savings Bonds – 1.114 trillion

1. Federal Reserve and Intragovernmental Holdings – 5.127 trillion (and rising with every report)
*intragovernmental holdings is a form of governmental liabilities (like social security trust fund and the medicare trust fund)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 05:22 AM
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National Debt is like any other debt, it's "owned" by the people "lending" the money.

In this case, the money is "lent" when various organisations buy the bonds or other securities issued by the country to raise money.

A very simplified version:

The US wants to raise a trillion dollars to put us all in FEMA camps.

It issues a trillion $'s worth of bonds paying %5 over 5 years.

Banks, pensions, investment banks (if there are any left!) buy these as either investments (for pensions for example), or to trade, paying the government the trillion, so the US now has a trillion dollar debt.

Approximately %25 of the US national debt is owned by foreign countries, China being one of the largest.

The problem arises when Tax receipts fail to cover the cost of repaying bonds that have matured (after the 5 years in the above example), something that will probably happen in the next 20-30 years.

As you see, national debt isn't really that much different from any other bond or share issue, except it was supposed to be safer than "money in the bank", because hey, countries don't go bankrupt do they???? Well we have seen lately that that's not entirely true!

Hope that helps my friend.

edit on 25-12-2010 by kiwifoot because: spelling



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 06:12 AM
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Internationally speaking, nations generally acquire vast debt by taking loans from entities like the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. They are part of the United Nations framework.

Here go read their websites.
world bank
IMF
wiki WB
wiki imf

Here is the wiki on "Reserve Banks" or "Central Banks".
Reserve banks
National Banks


edit on 25-12-2010 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 11:11 PM
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The IMF and World Bank loan a lot of money, mostly I think to developing nations, such as those in the Third World. I have no idea where they actually get their money (since as far as I know they don't do anything) so they are probably 'person C' in your example. I really have no idea what the answer is to the question, though, and I suspect that 'they' like it that way.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 11:26 PM
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The person who owns the debt is the one who doesn't have any army big enough to make the country in debt pay up.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 11:35 PM
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...the global debt is fictional... doesnt really exist... not backed up by gold or real currency... its just numbers... a game... as for who ultimately will own it - nobody cuz you cant own nothing...



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 11:40 PM
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The debt number has a lot of misconceptions.

But it ultimately needs to be viewed in payments, akin to your home mortgage (assuming you have one). I am not sure what it exactly is but it isn't like it is all due at the end of the year.

Remember, the USA has never missed one debt repayment ever in recorded history. People love taking on our debt, no matter if it is a single private entity (me or you) or another country. It should be noted we do pay very low rates at the same time in relation to other countries. It is probably the safest investment possible at this current time. Keyword being safest, not most profitable.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...the global debt is fictional... doesnt really exist... not backed up by gold or real currency... its just numbers... a game... as for who ultimately will own it - nobody cuz you cant own nothing...


I think this is the closest to the correct answer... but, if you were to ask this in the land of make believe, well then the debt is "ours", and your children's, and your children's children, and your children's children's children... you know the rest.

As long as we allow fictional finance, then we would have to pay, not just with our paper money, and symbols ($$$), but our labor, and freedom's, our happiness, and sovereignty.

Peace, NRE.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 12:52 AM
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No the debt is not fictional in a material sense.

The debt is based on oil, because our currencies are valued based on the value of oil per barrel.

Once Nixon got us totally off the Gold Standard, we automatically by Default switched to the Oil Standard.

All currencies value is directly proportional to the oil industry now.

When oil becomes harder to get a hold of, the value of OIL skyrockets and the value of CURRENCY plummets.
And vice versa, when oil is plentiful, it becomes cheap, meanwhile the value of currency improves.

All products in our society are derived from oil at some point in their creation. Even your carrots and lettuce at lunch, because it took oil to plow and farm the land, and because it took oil to transport those goods to you.

Everything is based on oil in our present society.

Therefore debt valuation is a function of the value of oil.

Why do you think they call it "Black Gold"? Because it's the new Gold Standard, the Oil Standard.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 12:55 AM
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Oh and another point- almost all the oil is traded valued in American Dollars $.

This makes the value of American Dollars $ entirely dependent on Oil.

In order to import foreign oil, many nations have to convert into American $. Not all but many do.

Some nations are trying to trade oil in other currency types. Still, that means all currencies are based on the value of oil. That is tangible. It is real quantifiable resources.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
No the debt is not fictional in a material sense.

The debt is based on oil, because our currencies are valued based on the value of oil per barrel.


...the value of oil is based upon POTENTIAL profit... calculations, postulations, spreadsheets produced to predict potential profit are often perceived / promoted as fact but they're not...


Originally posted by muzzleflash
Once Nixon got us totally off the Gold Standard, we automatically by Default switched to the Oil Standard.


...usofa currency has not been based upon gold since politicians sold us out to the federal reserve... tricky dick was almost a year old when that happened, so we cant blame him ...


Originally posted by muzzleflash
all currencies are based on the value of oil. That is tangible. It is real quantifiable resources


...you're confusing the whore with the potential profit the pimp expects to make off of her...



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by afoolbyanyothername
 


The Global debt belongs to whomever allows themselves to be ascribed this debt but in all truth, the debt belongs to the parties responsible for incurring it. The governments of the world, who if under investigation would be seen as war criminals and federal criminals, are entitled to receive the brunt of this debt. A lot of personal trannsactions have been made with tax payer money. The Global debt falls on the shoulders of the poor, the slaves, who feel the whip if they lash out against their owners.

Yes modern day slavery is in full effect. Its time to break away the chains and wake up. Slavery can only exist to a consenting party. When will it become of obvious to everyone that the world is stage and the greatest entertainment dictates our lives? Really? No one can see this?

Do not be afraid of the ptb because they in all actuality are more afraid, with more reason, of you. There can be no power unlesss we concede it.

The debt is for everything we forgot to say NO to.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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You will get all kinds of establishment answers to your question. We the people own the debt. The debtors who lent the money own the debt. Blah, blah, blah... Here's the truth, NO ONE owns the debt. In fact, since their is no such thing as "Money" there can be no such thing as "Debt". That paper you use to trade for junk has NO VALUE. One cannot go into debt by borrowing something of no value!



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by fonenyc
 


When all the races can come as one and see that they are all nothing but slaves, will the revolt begin. When a white man can see an african american man's history is his present and future can the United states begin to make change. When foreign people stop allowing their governments to demonize American people and see that we are all in the same boat, can we have peace.

When we break the chains and snatch the whip can we be free. Time is not running out, no time is of the essence. SO forget 2012 and let 2011, if indeed it is the last year, be the year that humanity enjoyed freedom. We are the victims, that is obvious, but of who? and why?

Answer that question or admit you are the cause of all this downturn and war. If you do go F yourself!



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by kozmo
 


Basically its like playing monopoly drunk and knocking the game board on the floor, game over and start again; or we can play uno with the debt. LMAO good answer!



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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The debt is real, over half of the US debt is owed to American citizens in one way or another. Individual Bonds, mutual funds, pensions, insurance companies, social security, bank assets - which ultimately back bank deposits is all largely made up of US debt.

It's also real that it is almost 100% certain it won't get paid off. If you think that will have no effect on your life, unless you are obscenely rich you are just wrong. If you haven't been paying attention foreign interest in buying our debt is almost gone, the only foreigners still buying are other countries that are in trouble and they want us to return the favor in continuing to buy their terrible debt. But QE2 - that is blatant money creation with no backing is buying 100 billion dollars of our debt per month currently - that is a CLEAR sign the game is almost over.

About the person saying the dollar is given value by oil, that is not really correct, the dollar is maintaining some value for one main reason - military power. The threat of the use of our military, and the actual use (Iraq) of that power to maintain dollar supremacy is the main thing that has allowed the dollar to maintain itself as the world currency.




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