Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Originally posted by debrisfield
Also, why would they being calling the the radar target kite a "disc" when it was very un-disc-like, particularly in a torn up state? It is utter
nonsense to claim that Marcel, the intel officer, or Blanchard the base commander, would continue to call it a "disc" just because the rancher might
have called it a disc, especially when it was very obviously weather balloon debris of some kind.
Why is it nonsense? It obviously wasn't a standard weather balloon, there was too much debris for a single weather balloon.
The claimed (nonexistent) Mogul balloon WAS supposed to be made up of standard weather balloons. There was nothing unusual or mystifying about them.
Your argument is like saying a child couldn't recognize an individual birthday balloon if there was more than one such balloon at the party. That's
why the argument is utter nonsense.
It wasn't just the rancher using the word disc, he heard it in the media and so I'm sure did the others, so they had "disc" on the brain
from media exposure regarding a large wave of sightings, that's not a difficult concept to grasp.
Are you just making this stuff up? Since the rancher lived alone on a ranch without electricity or phone or newspaper, how exactly was he supposed to
have "disc on the brain from the media exposure" when there was NO MEDIA to influence him? The way he first found out about the "flying discs"
was when he journeyed to the tiny town of Corona with one phone and first heard about them. Now some of those people had heard about the flying disks
somewhere through the media, but this was still the middle of nowhere when most people lacked phones or electricity. It isn't like all the ranchers
had Internet and satellite dishes.
It is truly amazing how the debunkers can believe that a fictitious Mogul flight for which there is not one scrap of documentation can
possibly account for the Roswell debris. The Air Force flat-out lied about the existence of such a balloon, even going so far as to flagrantly lie
that Flights #2 & #3 were also real, when it is very clear from official records that they too NEVER HAPPENED. Talk about being gullible.
Since all the eyewitnesses, and there are a number of them, describe balloon and radar-target like debris, of foil, sticks, and tape, it seems pretty
obvious to me that it was a balloon of some sort,
No, this is another of your made-up "facts". "All" the eyewitnesses did NOT describe balloon and radar-target like debris. Where did you dream
that up? You are obviously doing the usual debunker tactic of carefully cherry-picking the testimony, leaving out all of the testimony which clearly
does NOT describe balloon or radar-target material.
Just one among over a dozen eyewitness examples, intel officer Marcel described thin metal debris with memory that couldn't be cut, torn, or damaged
with sledge hammer blows. It would not burn. He never described anything like fragile, double-sided foil-paper used on radar targets, the same stuff
used to wrap candy bars and chewing gum or make radar jamming chaff. Besides, he would have known about radar targets, since he was also a trained
radar intelligence officer. He also described a metallic fabric-like material that he said clearly could NOT have come from any balloon, since it was
porous. He could blow through it. So he considered the possibility of some strange balloon material, but his examination of the debris did not
but far more wreckage than a normal weather balloon.
Really? Then why did rancher Brazel claim only 5 pounds of debris, when a real Mogul typically weighed 50 or 60 pounds? And how did this get further
reduced to only ONE balloon and ONE radar target in Fort Worth, as described by Ramey, his men, and as shown in the photos? That's only a little
over 1 pound of debris. As usual, the debunkers want it both ways. It was a huge Mogul balloon creating huge amounts of debris, but this is also
completely consistent with what Brazel described or what was shown and described to the press in Fort Worth, when clearly the quantities of debris
weren't even remotely close.
Gen. Ramey's public story was that a standard RAWIN target meteorological balloon was recovered, which he also said was commonly used (which it
was--they were sent up every day from multiple weather stations all over the country, in fact a 100 a day according to the AP science writer at the
time). As his chief of staff Brig. Gen. Thomas Dubuse clearly stated, the weather balloon in the photos was a cover story to get rid of the press.
Dubose also spoke of personally taking the call to start the cover-up and the extreme secrecy surrounding the entire matter. Also that after a secret
flight of material to Washington by "colonel courier", the debris was further flown on to Wright Field for even further examination. Why would a
rubber balloon and balsa wood kite of aluminum foil paper and Scotch tape need such attention and scrutiny?
What is in the photos was a common singular weather balloon and radar target, but this was clearly not what was found at Roswell, but, as Dubose said,
a cover story. In fact the photos and witness descriptions back then PROVE no Mogul balloon, since there is only a tiny fraction of the required
debris and none of the equipment or rigging that would be associated with a Mogul was found or described.
I don't know if it's all that important which large balloon it was. It could have been a Soviet or Japanese spy balloon for all I know (I
don't necessarily favor those theories, but I can't rule them out), and that's why they had the material sent for analysis, but it still is
described by pretty much everyone as remains of a large balloon of some sort.
More making stuff up. All Ramey displayed was a standard weather balloon, of which hundreds were sent up every day all over the country. There is
zero evidence to support a Soviet or Japanese spy balloon. And perhaps you haven't heard, but the Japanese lost the war and were then under military
occupation by the U.S. Where did you get the idea that the Japanese could be spying on us under those circumstances?
It could also have been a balloon or balloon cluster from another branch of service:
Really? More imaginary balloons flying around, not just the fictitious Mogul Flight #4 invented by the USAF and Mogul engineer Charles Moore? Name
the specific balloon project, where they were stationed, and provide the documentation that not only proves they existed but could have created a
balloon in that time frame that also truly matches the descriptions of eyewitnesses. I can also dream up all sorts of unicorn-like fictitious secret
projects and ridiculous "Japanese spy balloons", but it is all nonsense unless you can produce actual evidence that such projects existed and could
account for what happened--fictitious balloon projects and flights don't count.
There were also sightings in the summer of 1947 in the western and northwestern United States. A 1949 Air Force investigation (Trakowski 1949)
could not correlate those sightings with Project Mogul, but the Air Force was unaware of a Navy program launching cluster balloons in Colorado that
same summer. Coordination between branches of the military was limited in the years just following World War II.
Again, just one fellow debunkers say-so, with no real evidence presented, including any evidence that another totally undocumented balloon-flight from
this alleged project in Colorado existed in the necessary time frame and could have gone against prevailing winds and ended several hundred miles
But I don't see why it couldn't be Mogul 4, do you expect to have perfect documentation for things that happened over half a century ago?
Yes, that's exactly what I expect . When Project Mogul clearly documented all their flown constant-altitude balloons, they would also document
"Mogul 4" IF it really flew like the others. But they didn't, just like no Mogul 2 or 3, which also clearly never left the ground. And they say
why--high winds and equipment failure for 2 & 3 and cloudy weather for 4. There were no flights 2, 3, 4.
And Moore has an explanation for lack of specific docmentation, compartmentalization:
after seeing the reports and photographs from 1947 for the first time, Charles Moore realized that Flight 4 was a much better candidate for the
Foster ranch debris than a polyethylene balloon...
While UFO proponents allege a lack of contemporary references to “Project Mogul Balloon Flights,” Moore says the project was so compartmentalized
that such references simply may not exist. Any mention of these flights will instead be labeled as NYU constant-level balloon
This is more of Moore's double talk. If the constant-altitude balloons went up, they were documented in Mogul records, period. A number of the
flights are listed as carrying sonobuoy microphones, the only possible reason they might not write them up, but they did. The sonobuoys themselves
were not classified, but the reason they were using them (listen for distant explosions) was classified. But still, all those sonobuoy flights were
recorded. They aren't missing like Flights 2, 3, 4, and 9. The reason 2, 3, 4, and 9 are missing from the records is simply because they never
flew. All other three dozen Mogul flights from the 1947 time period were dutifully recorded, i.e., the ones that actually went up.
Again we are back to the desperation of the debunkers, needing to invent nonexistent balloon flights out of thin air to try to explain Roswell, even
"Japanese spy balloons". Give us all a break!