The Ramey Memo: Best Roswell Evidence Ever Found

reply to post by The Shrike


Thanks for answering the questions, appreciate it. Of course, we still have no "proof" this debris was actually recovered from Roswell (only that the military claims this is what the material is), just as we have not "proof" Mogul flight 4 even existed, other than witness testimony...the same problem we have with the alternate argument...that it was recovered alien craft. While I understand the gravity of saying the government is covering it up, since they've already been CAUGHT in previous coverups on this event, it's not that unfair of a statement.

Too bad on the flowery tape. Moore's claim of using this tape from a NY toy company always seems to hit a dead end, and it would be a pretty crucial piece of evidence for supporting Mogul, if the company/tape could be identified.

Part of the problem may be the same thing plaguing pro-UFO researchers...the records fire of 1947...which also made it hard to track all of the transfers after RAAF became part of the Air Force after the National Security Act. Admittedly, this could also be the reason for the lack of info on all of the Mogul flights. Almost every piece of evidence can be a double edged sword in this case.

I'm not sure if I've seen this mentioned, but there is another issue with the memo.

The photographer states that he gave Ramey the piece of paper to hold for the photo. Now, all we have is his testimony this was the case, but if so, it would seem highly doubtful that a classified memo would just be "out" for the photographer to grab and hand to him. Then again, his testimony, as with other witnesses, was years and years later, so all we can do is consider it, in the evaluation of the memo. I personally think it much more likely that his aide handed him the memo just as he was posing for the pic, but there's really no way to be certain of the circumstances of when and why he's holding it in the pics.

Originally posted by pellian
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Yes. Use Occams razor the simplest explanation is the most correct one. I wish people would use critical thinking skills instead of blind belief in the bizarre

"Blind belief in the bizarre" should include blind skeptical belief that a nonexistent Mogul balloon flight could explain anything. Manufacturing "explanations" may simplify your life, but it doesn't mean you have really explained what happened.

And BTW, Occam's razor does not say the simplest explanation is the most correct one. It says that if you have more than one hypothesis, and they are all EQUALLY good at explaining the data (which by itself is hard to define and may be subjective), the one that is simplest (usually fewest assumptions, but again, often subjective and hard to define) is most likely (not absolutely is) to be correct.

Occam's razor is a guide or rule-of-thumb, not some immutable law of the Universe. E.g., one could argue that the "simplest" explanation for why we are here is "God created everything" or "God's will". That is ever so much simpler than Cosmology or the Theory of Evolution, that can require years of intense university study to fully comprehend. But it doesn't really explain anything. And neither does imaginary balloon flights.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by The Shrike

 

First of all, I want to say to Gazrok that I really like his detailed summaries on many controversial aspects of Roswell and related subjects.

Thanks for answering the questions, appreciate it. Of course, we still have no "proof" this debris was actually recovered from Roswell (only that the military claims this is what the material is),

Gazrok, please see my previous reply to Shrike. The AF spelled out in their report that the radar target Shrike thinks is the "real Roswell debris" was one that really dated from 1953 that they rummaged up with Charles Moore's help, so they could compare it with what existed back in 1947. Therefore it had nothing to do with what was found in 1947.

just as we have not "proof" Mogul flight 4 even existed, other than witness testimony

Actually only one witness, Charles Moore, who initially said he had no memory of any flight. Then he surmised that maybe it existed, and then his memory kept getting more acute with age until he claimed to have vivid memories of it. Moore kept changing his "memory" of what happened, also caught lying and manufacturing Mogul data to make his case. Mogul records clearly say otherwise--Moore's Flight 4 never existed, just as 2 & 3 didn't exist. All these flights never made it off the ground and instead are blanks in the Mogul numbering sequence.

Too bad on the flowery tape. Moore's claim of using this tape from a NY toy company always seems to hit a dead end, and it would be a pretty crucial piece of evidence for supporting Mogul, if the company/tape could be identified.

It wouldn't matter. There is no flower tape in the Fort Worth photos. And the balloon debris on display doesn't match up with what rancher Brazel described or a Mogul flight, either in quantity, composition, or physical state.

Part of the problem may be the same thing plaguing pro-UFO researchers...the records fire of 1947...which also made it hard to track all of the transfers after RAAF became part of the Air Force after the National Security Act. Admittedly, this could also be the reason for the lack of info on all of the Mogul flights. Almost every piece of evidence can be a double edged sword in this case.

The records fire has nothing to do with Mogul. We have all the Mogul records we need. They show Flight 4 never existed. Flight 4 was a red herring dreamed up by AF counterintelligence to blunt N.M. Congressman Steven Schiff's Roswell probe.

I'm not sure if I've seen this mentioned, but there is another issue with the memo. The photographer states that he gave Ramey the piece of paper to hold for the photo. Now, all we have is his testimony this was the case, but if so, it would seem highly doubtful that a classified memo would just be "out" for the photographer to grab and hand to him. Then again, his testimony, as with other witnesses, was years and years later, so all we can do is consider it, in the evaluation of the memo. I personally think it much more likely that his aide handed him the memo just as he was posing for the pic, but there's really no way to be certain of the circumstances of when and why he's holding it in the pics.

The photographer, J.B. Johnson was another witness, like Moore, who kept changing his story and inflating his role. Johnson's agenda at the end was to prove he was the photographer of the real flying saucer debris. And Moore's agenda was probably to prove his Mogul balloon solved the Roswell case (never mind that it never existed).

Originally posted by The Shrike

The truth came out in 1947 but people such as yourself does not accept the truth, you seem to be happy with the conspiraces that have arisen thanks to the popular authors, initiated by Mr get-out-of-my-way-I'm-on-my-way-to-the-bank Friedman.

You are being irrationally defensive. No where in my post did I state any beliefs of mine regarding the Roswell "incident". It is -you- that has taken it upon yourself to decide that I "don't accept truth" and "am happy with conspiracies". If you took the time to read what I wrote, you'd see that I only commented on your disturbing lack of manners. My complaint is with the way you are handling yourself here. You choose to argue with people on this forum, while at the same time you call them mentally challenged.

What sort of pointless exercise are you performing then? If you truly believe people here are deficient of basic cognitive skills, why engage them in debate?

Originally posted by The Shrike

Anyone that posits questionable material has to be notified of such. Do YOU really believe that a UFO crashed near Roswell and that alien bodies were removed? Do you really believe that UFOs crash willy-nilly all over the planet? If you do, you have a lot of introspecting to do.

I think it is you who is being conspiratorial- no where in my original post did I mention any of these possibilities. I find it very odd that while my comment involved no opinion about the actual Roswell "incident", you have decided it necessary to interrogate me about my beliefs.

Originally posted by The Shrike
Find the irrefutable evidence to support Roswell and I mean something solid not all of the stuff that's been shot down by critical researchers, such as Karl Pflock. Read his book and see why Roswell was not a UFO crash. There are other authors so don't nitpick him without doing the research.

Why are you posting comments like this when you have no indication that believe that something crashed in Roswell? Your knee-jerk reaction to criticism is to instantly assume all of my beliefs are different than yours, and must be changed through research?

Originally posted by The Shrike

A few other members, some well-known to the world, that exhibit critical thinking also get on the believers' case. When the less-educated insult a highly-educate authority such as James Oberg, do you get on their case? When Arbitrageur, or Phage, or any of the critical thinkers tell a believer he is not using all of his marbles and coming to errroneous conclusions, do you get on their cases? Aren't you being selective here?

I don't see you getting on their case. Why do you single me out?

I don't have time to visit every thread in this forum, but I guarantee you that when I see something blatantly offensive and distasteful as what you said earlier, I will voice my objections regardless of who says it. I had never yet seen someone stoop so low as to imply that someone is mentally challenged while engaging in a voluntary debate with them.

My advice is this- If you are here to truly educate people, you should work on your delivery.

Starred and flagged OP, thank you for this!

On the analysis of the document in Ramey's hand and how it got in his hand in the first place:
I think the analysis shows enough to determine that whatever crashed wasn't a weather balloon. I also think if Ramey is scrambling to first contain the disc story by discrediting it, and the best he could come up with was a flipping weather balloon on short notice, then I don't see why he wouldn't have a memo handed to him just as the press conference was starting - that things were probably hopping like crazy with changing the story and disposition of the real wreckage are legitimate conjectures.

The initial news story straight out of the 509th at Roswell was a flying disc, only to be countermanded the next day by the commanding general of the 8th Airforce who wasn't even there.

I find it hard to believe that the elite 509th bombing group would have an intelligence officer incapable of identifying the wreckage of a balloon from that of a metallic craft, of either alien or terrestrial origin.

And if he was so incompetent, why the promotions and later assignments to more and more important posts?

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger
On the analysis of the document in Ramey's hand and how it got in his hand in the first place:
I think the analysis shows enough to determine that whatever crashed wasn't a weather balloon. I also think if Ramey is scrambling to first contain the disc story by discrediting it, and the best he could come up with was a flipping weather balloon on short notice, then I don't see why he wouldn't have a memo handed to him just as the press conference was starting - that things were probably hopping like crazy with changing the story and disposition of the real wreckage are legitimate conjectures.

The initial news story straight out of the 509th at Roswell was a flying disc, only to be countermanded the next day by the commanding general of the 8th Airforce who wasn't even there.

I agree with almost everything you say here. The photos of Gen. Ramey and his memo were taken about 2 hours after the Roswell press release first hit the news wires, so things were changing very quickly. In three of four photos taken of Ramey, he had the back of the page facing the camera. Only in one photo did he tilt the page forward, as if to read it (maybe to help plot next moves), and the photographer just happened to snap the picture at a critical moment, that may have lasted only a few seconds. So I think it was just a momentary lapse on Ramey's part, probably something he wasn't even consciously aware of at the time.

Ramey was already telling the photographer and some other reporters who called that it was a balloon and radar target, and this became the official story an hour later after he finally brought in his weather officer. Thus the story officially changed from recovered "flying disc" to "weather balloon" in less than three hours. But the weather balloon story didn't get into any of the newspapers until the next day because all evening papers had already gone to press.

I find it hard to believe that the elite 509th bombing group would have an intelligence officer incapable of identifying the wreckage of a balloon from that of a metallic craft, of either alien or terrestrial origin.

And if he was so incompetent, why the promotions and later assignments to more and more important posts?

Exactly. The intel officer, Marcel, was being praised by the very same Gen. Ramey a year later as "outstanding", command officer material, and currently irreplaceable. Idiots or incompetents are very easy to replace, and for a unit like the 509th responsible for delivering A-bombs, would have been replaced in short order if there had been a monumental screw-up.

As nice as all of this is, though (And it is nice, don't get me wrong), all we have now, is a definite knowledge that the original weather-balloon story isn't the truth. Mightn't the Roswell incident have been used to cover up something more dastardly than just "Aliens"? What if the government was trying to cover up something that directly incriminated it. I'm sure I don't know, one way or the other, but I can't see why it would be a good idea for our government to cover up Extra Terrestrials. (Which, by the way, certainly doesn't mean that they're not).

*shrugs*

It's too hard to know things in this world.

When you guys get through venting your spleens with worthless decipherments of the Ramey Memo, try your hand at the Voynich Manuscript which might say something about Roswell and alien bodies and Elvis and Hoffa!

I'm aware that a lot of you think that you are "authorities" when it comes to Roswell and you have convinced yourselves, based on slim and questionable evidence, that you know what the Ramey memo says. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but, frankly, while I read your comments with a sense of amusement, before I accept your speculations as having any sort of reliance, I'd rather accept Pflock's research which sounds more solid than yours. And as I mentioned, if you want to do a real decipherment simply employ the methods used with some of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other similar ancient documents where various light waves were employed to really see what the poor quality photos of the memo may say once and for all.

I'm aware of and discount anything where words such as "it could have been", "more than likely", "perhaps", and similar words. Pflock uses them so they're not definite statements and leave the door open for other thoughts. Yours, for example.

query.nytimes.com...
Digitized Fragments Help Decipher Dead Sea Scrolls
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Published: April 2, 1996

"The first step in the scholars' work involved taking new pictures of the fragments with cameras sensitive to infrared light, a technique developed in the cold war for aerial and space reconnaissance. This technique was first applied three years ago to reading previously illegible or invisible texts, based on research by Dr. Gregory Bearman, a physicist and remote-sensing specialist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., who worked with Dr. Zuckerman."



"ROSWELL: Incovenient Facts and the Will to Believe" by Karl T. Pflock. Pages 209-210

More important, however, are the group's and others' attempts to rea the Ramey "message," which they have decided is a highly classified communication containing information that would establish once and for all that a flying saucer crashed somewhere near Roswell. However unlikely as it might seem that an army air forces general officer, commander of the Eigth Air Force, would be so foolish as to have something like that in his hand at a press conference, such things have happened. ...

It is certainly more that a little likely that what Ramey was holding was something about the incident concerning which he had called the press conference. It could have been talking points for him to refer to, or a script for him to read from during a later radio statement he made about the incident. However, everyone who has examined enhanced images of the document concurs that it is some sort of message form, probably a TWX, or military radio-telegraph message. Perhaps it was from Wright Field or Air Weather Servicee headquarters outside Washington, D.C., providing a tentative identification of what had been recovered.

That this is the case is suggested by what aerospace engineer and ufologist Brad Sparks discovered as long ago as the early 1980s. In 1980, Sparks was the first person to be able to read a word in the Ramey message: "BALLOONS." In 1985, working from a good blowup copy of one of the photographs, he was able to pick out: "WEATHER BALLOONS," '"DISC,"' "LAND," and "FORT WORTH."

More exotic interpretations have been offered by RPIT and others. For example, "VICTIMS OF THE WRECK (The Shrike: I replied previously that one of the words claimed to be xxx to me looked like WRECK!, without the exclamation mark, of course) WERE TAKEN BY CONVOY," and "MAGDALENA" (a town near the alleged Barney Barnett/Gerald Anderson crash site), and so on. Recently, Donald Burleson, a New Mexico MUFON and International UFO Museum official, claims he, Don Schmitt, and Tom Carey have dug out a variety of exotic tidbits, among them "FOR ATOMIC," "SITE TWO AT CARLSBAD," and what Burleson thinks might be the meaning of "TEMPLE," ...

The Shrike: I had to stop, too much to type. But my last words are that a lot of efforts have been made to decipher the Ramey memo by various individuals using a variety of equipment. So the battle will continue with no one winning the war but a leaving behind a lot of bloodshed. Until someone uses the method I mentioned above (infra-red) I don't think that the Ramey memo will give up its secrets. But, you go guys!

Originally posted by The Shrike
In 1980, Sparks was the first person to be able to read a word in the Ramey message: "BALLOONS." In 1985, working from a good blowup copy of one of the photographs, he was able to pick out: "WEATHER BALLOONS," '"DISC,"' "LAND," and "FORT WORTH."

On the legibility study I cited earlier in the thread, the words "balloon" and "Fort Worth" were among the few that were almost universally legible, so this suggests that parts of it can be read. But other parts of it are guesswork.

Given that "balloon" is one of the few words everyone agrees on, I find it amusing that some people conclude that this memo somehow proves it's not a balloon. I'm not sure we can conclude much from the memo with the level of legibility we have, but if I were going to draw any conclusion at all, the fact that "balloon" is one of the clearest words, does little to rule out a balloon.

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger
I think the analysis shows enough to determine that whatever crashed wasn't a weather balloon.

Because "balloon" is one of the few words that everyone agrees on? How does that rule out a balloon? And Mogul, if that's what they found, wasn't a weather balloon. Please catch up to at least the 1994 claims by the air force, because if you are going to dispute their claims you should at least dispute their latest claim and not the one they made in 1947.

Originally posted by The Shrike
Until someone uses the method I mentioned above (infra-red) I don't think that the Ramey memo will give up its secrets.

What makes you think infrared would help in the Ramey memo? It won't.

You need an original document like the dead sea scrolls for that method to help, and we don't have that.

However, I do think that modern scanning technology is improving at a rate that rescanning the negative again with a higher quality, higher resolution scanner may yield additional details.

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown
reply to post by The Shrike

 

You still haven't answered my question The Shrike.

Why are you here? You say you already know the answer to this issue. So why do waste your time on these threads?

Do you believe you are really helping people by insulting them?

This is the third time I'm asking this question The Shrike.

Why won't you answer it?

This is the fourth time I'm asking this question The Shrike, why are you ignoring it?

Why are you here wasting your time here if you already know the solution.

Do you just enjoy insulting people?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by The Shrike
(snip)
Until someone uses the method I mentioned above (infra-red) I don't think that the Ramey memo will give up its secrets.

What makes you think infrared would help in the Ramey memo? It won't.

You need an original document like the dead sea scrolls for that method to help, and we don't have that.

However, I do think that modern scanning technology is improving at a rate that rescanning the negative again with a higher quality, higher resolution scanner may yield additional details.

edit on 30-12-2010 by Arbitrageur because: fix typo

If you can work with the original negative and produce a positive print, or do it in the digital domain bypassing a print, I have faith (not meant religiously) that using the infra-red method would reveal more legible words than present efforts from bad copies. If you saw the documentaries where the method was used and saw the quality of the documents it was used on, your faith would increase also. When they changed the frequency or whatever. A google search will point you in the right direction. I'm remembering another documentary where this infra-red method was used to read a page that had been torn from a famous ancient book by a famous personality and the page had been written on over the original text, although I'm weak on the details.

So, yes, I do think that if given a chance, this method could be the last chance the Ramey memo has although one never knows what the future might bring.

Originally posted by pellian
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Yes. Use Occams razor the simplest explanation is the most correct one. I wish people would use critical thinking skills instead of blind belief in the bizarre

Ok let's use Occams razor for the Roswell media release in which the document in question is seen.

The army wants to keep secret a top secret balloon experiment that crashed, so first they issue a press with the biggest news story of the 20th Century - captured alien saucer. Not exactly the best way to keep something quiet.

Then they realise this is causing too much interest, so they try to hide their balloon experiment by saying its a balloon experiment.

Why did they just not do that in the first place?

We are talking about the 509th wing remember - the most important bomber wing in the world at the time.

This series of events is not the simplest way to conceal a mogul balloon crash and therefore mogul is likely NOT the simplest solution

Why not just say it was something mundane like a crashed plane. That is the simplest solution to covering a mogul crash.

How are you logically supposed to keep something quiet by telling everyone its a crashed flying saucer?

If the press release originally said it was a weather balloon no one would have cared in the first place. That is the best way to keep the mogul secret.

It is just not logical therefore Occams razor says the mogul solution is not likely the correct solution.

Disclaimer for The Shrike: I still do not subscribe to the crashed saucer solution even though you will likely say I do because I questioned your methods and your attitude.

Originally posted by The Shrike
If you can work with the original negative and produce a positive print, or do it in the digital domain bypassing a print, I have faith (not meant religiously) that using the infra-red method would reveal more legible words than present efforts from bad copies.

OK has this infrared method ever been used on a negative?

Or are you just dreaming that up because you saw the infrared method used on an original document?

Because I can see where it would work on the dead sea scrolls but I don't see how it will work on a negative, so without an example of it used on a negative, I can only assume your intentions are good but as misguided as the guy who tried to do a spectroscopic wavelength analysis on the Phoenix lights video. Spectroscopic analysis works on the original light, but not on household camcorder videos. I suspect infrared analysis is the same where it will work on the original document but not on a negative made from the original. But I'll be glad to be corrected if you can find examples where it's been used on negatives. I don't think you'll find them.

Or to put it another way, if we had the original piece of paper and had a hard time reading it, infrared analysis might help. But of course that's not what we have.

reply to post by The Shrike


Some interesting ideas on that method. I'd be all for increased efforts on the memo, whether it supports the Roswell crash or is unrelated.

When you guys get through venting your spleens with worthless decipherments of the Ramey Memo, try your hand at the Voynich Manuscript which might say something about Roswell and alien bodies and Elvis and Hoffa!

Yeah, I've looked into that one before. Quite cryptic, and very mysterious. It seems like an alchemical codex, but deciphering who wrote it, and why, has proven impossible for even top cryptologists. For anyone who has never heard of the Voynich Manuscript, check into it. Just shows how weird our world can be.

reply to post by muzzleflash


This an old story,the problem is that they cannot 100% say thats what it said on the paper in his hand.
I believe it happened but,to prove it to the skeptics you need at least 100% proof,if not more.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by The Shrike

 

Some interesting ideas on that method. I'd be all for increased efforts on the memo, whether it supports the Roswell crash or is unrelated.

When you guys get through venting your spleens with worthless decipherments of the Ramey Memo, try your hand at the Voynich Manuscript which might say something about Roswell and alien bodies and Elvis and Hoffa!

Yeah, I've looked into that one before. Quite cryptic, and very mysterious. It seems like an alchemical codex, but deciphering who wrote it, and why, has proven impossible for even top cryptologists. For anyone who has never heard of the Voynich Manuscript, check into it. Just shows how weird our world can be.

I injected that harmless reference because I just finished reading an article by Klaus Schmeh in the Jan/Feb 2011 issue of "SKEPTICAL INQUIRER" titled "The Voynich Manuscript - The Book Nobody Can Read".

Also while lying in bed last night it occurred to me that this Ramey memo argument is similar to the Mars face argument in which certain conclusions were made based on preliminary data which convinced some people such as Richard Hoagland, and then the gullible followers, that what was being presented in the first satellite photos was going to continue to prove the allegations. On the contrary, the better the photos got from successive satellites the faster Hoagland's non-flexible views were shot down but he continued to be in denial.

So with the Ramey memo, it started with a photograph that did not have the necessary resolution to come to any definitive conclusion but that didn't dissuade the believers in a pro-UFO crash conspiracy. Now we're seeing efforts by some who come to desired conclusions even though what their efforts reveal are not as conclusive as they want to believe.

I gotta tell you, the Ramey memo is going to eventually reveal a thumbnail photo of the Martian face!

reply to post by The Shrike


For me, as much as I'd love the Ramey memo to say just what some think it says, the real kicker is the photographer's statement that he handed Ramey the piece of paper for the photo...

Granted, that's a VERY small detail to remember years later, so kind of unreliable, but it remains a pretty strong piece of evidence when considering the memo's contents. I'd love to see some better analysis though, of the memo, as it really could say what some think it says, but, even if it turned out to be a list of things to get at the store, it wouldn't affect the other evidence out there (for either side)...

Originally posted by Krusty the Klown

Originally posted by pellian
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Yes. Use Occams razor the simplest explanation is the most correct one. I wish people would use critical thinking skills instead of blind belief in the bizarre

Ok let's use Occams razor for the Roswell media release in which the document in question is seen.

The army wants to keep secret a top secret balloon experiment that crashed, so first they issue a press with the biggest news story of the 20th Century - captured alien saucer. Not exactly the best way to keep something quiet.

Then they realise this is causing too much interest, so they try to hide their balloon experiment by saying its a balloon experiment.

Why did they just not do that in the first place?

We are talking about the 509th wing remember - the most important bomber wing in the world at the time.

This series of events is not the simplest way to conceal a mogul balloon crash and therefore mogul is likely NOT the simplest solution

Why not just say it was something mundane like a crashed plane. That is the simplest solution to covering a mogul crash.

How are you logically supposed to keep something quiet by telling everyone its a crashed flying saucer?

If the press release originally said it was a weather balloon no one would have cared in the first place. That is the best way to keep the mogul secret.

It is just not logical therefore Occams razor says the mogul solution is not likely the correct solution.

Disclaimer for The Shrike: I still do not subscribe to the crashed saucer solution even though you will likely say I do because I questioned your methods and your attitude.

edit on 30/12/1010 by Krusty the Klown because: (no reason given)

You ask questions that I've also asked over and over. But we don't know what those people in 1947 were thinking, what they knew about certain things that they may not have had any knowledge of such as secret projects and just because someone is a base commander doesn't automatically make that he's in the loop that someone else is creating. The original newspaper reports are of a balloon train debris field so what drove Ramey to announce UFO crash is not really a mystery but one has to decipher knowledge, attitudes, and the events of the times worldwide.

Here is more from Pflock's book on page 150:
"When the news broke about a flying saucer being found on the Foster Ranch, it must have caused great consternation at Alamogordo AAB. Project Mogul's hosts and Watson Labs personnel still at the base undoubtedly quickly became concerned the project might be in danger of being compromised as a result of the news coverage of Mack (sic) Brazel's discovery, which was likely to be something from one of the numerous unrecovered NYU arrays. Several of the flights had already been responsible for reports of flying saucers over the Tularosa Valley, in which Alamogordo is located. Moreover, there had been some press inquiries to the base about "unusual activities" in the North Area. Added to the growing public and media attention, the possibility that someone without a need to know had physical evidence of the NYU team's Project Mogul-related balloon operations meant something had to be done to divert press and public attention."

It is my opinion that neither Ramey or other personnel knew about these flights. But, still, I think that Ramey took the strange action he did because "Mac" Brazel came into town with news of his discovery thereby opening up a rat's nest which had to be covered real fast. It was Marcel who went to the Ranch and saw what was left of the balloon train and, possibly, knowing that this was not something to publicize might have escalated it to a UFO but when what was found was shown it had to be "declassified" to the truth which still doesn't sit well with those who want to believe alternative explanations.

I say it was balloon material as described by all who handled it.