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Where are all the ATS investigators?

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posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Flighty
 


Excellent post Flighty!

I think you've possibly hit the nail on the head there. Subject popularity is by no means a measure of the topics importance to the community. It is an unfortunate sign of the times that the majority of 'low level' contributors star and flag topics which are purely emotive rather than substantive. This skews what we should be seeing in terms of importance.

Rev.




posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:06 PM
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I would like an example of a well researched topic, so I can fully understand where some of you are coming from,

Other well researched topic are sometimes a little fact, mixed in with a lot of fiction, that are fun to read but can be debunked



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by The Revenant
reply to post by soficrow
 


I have to say Soficrow - the Scholar badge suits you well!

Some excellent thoughts in your last post.

Perhaps then, a training course needs to be drawn up, which requires an examination to pass. This training course will contain modules on the subjects you've identified, resulting in increased site privileges once completed and exam passed. This would seperate the casual conspiracy buffs from serious contributors to the field of expertise we are discussing.

You could almost call it a 'Conspiracy Academy'.

I know it's wacky - but I'm solutions person


Rev.


May I recommend this work as one of the suggested/required study materials: The Psychology of Intelligence Analysis by Richards J. Heuer (No, the first name is not mispelled). It is available on the CIA Centers for the Study of intelligence and Security homepage as a free pdf, but it also available on google books as well. I shall provide a link to both sources, so people may choose the one they wish to use.

CIA Link: www.cia.gov... lNew.pdf

Google Books Link: books.google.com... ltAByAJqjPU&hl=en&ei=PMwYTfjeIoH-8AbatvXXDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

This was required reading in my active duty days, and was removed from the official curriculum by Bush II. Obama has not restored it to it's former position either. It is no wonder that the quality of intelligence analysts has been steadily dropping with all new intakes since 2002.



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by Control
 



Thanks control. I skimmed a bit and LIKE it.

fyi - your cia link didn't work, but this one does.



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by The Revenant
I have lurked for many a year, and participated for only a short time. But during my lurking days, I used to see several excellent contributors that would actually go out and empirically investigate issues. Now, they are few and far between - and when they do contribute, the seething mass of half-breed trolls and other ATS species jump on them like savages and rip their threads apart - or saturate them with vitriolic puerile miasma.


They may have been captured ect. Doing investigations into sensitive issues unknowingly.
All I could think of. Some of the data is dangerous if true dont you think?



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
They may have been captured ect. Doing investigations into sensitive issues unknowingly.
All I could think of. Some of the data is dangerous if true don't you think?


Quite right
I have to keep looking out the window all the time for those black vans and the helicopters are really a pain


I look around here... and seems there are few left on my side of the fence..


As to the big debunkers... maybe they are gone as it's year end and their government disinfo agent contract wasn't renewed and they don't work for free...

Well gee... it IS a conspiracy site, no?



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I would like an example of a well researched topic, so I can fully understand where some of you are coming from,


Jkrog08's Threads at ATS (now deceased RIP)

* UFO Files
o The Kecksburg UFO Crash: December 9th, 1965
o A Strange Afternoon: The Collinsville, Connecticut UFO Incident, December 13th, 1999
o Yukon UFO "Mothership" Incident: December 11th, 1996
o UFO-Aircraft Encounters: The BOAC Stratocruiser Incident and The "Gulf of Mexico Incident"
o The Lakenheath-Bentwaters UFO Incident
o The 1952 Tremonton, Utah UFO Fleet
o The Chiles-Whitted UFO Incident: Eastern Airlines Flight 576 and The "Rocket Ship"
o The Gorman UFO Dogfight
o The Mantell UFO Incident

Bigfatfurrytexan

Anti-gravity and the search for Dr. Ning-Li
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Skyfloating

PARA: Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Zorgon


NAVY Space Command Uncovered
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just to name a few



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Other well researched topic are sometimes a little fact, mixed in with a lot of fiction, that are fun to read but can be debunked


Whether or not something may be able to be debunked does not detract from something being well researched nor a point of view being presented. But with page after page of "Here is a UFO on youtube... watcha all think?" kind of posts.. eventually one says... "why bother?"

I took a year of recently... but at least I have my own reasons for 'hanging around '
The intel gathered from the 'silent watchers' here has more than paid for suffering troll abuse



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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I just had a u2u about this thread, made me think about the issues further...

...I'm still thinking, but do agree ATS' quality has fallen dramatically - and greatly miss that quality.

At the same time, I also see that the currently common "vitriol" is a natural progression arising from the most "accessible" (and vitriolic) characteristics of the "in crowd" from the "old days." ...Unfortunately, along with the old quality came some really nasty competition, well-seasoned with caustic vitriolic bullying, blind adoration, mindless adulation and a Brobdingnagian shake of good old-fashioned calculated butt kissing.

...Basically, the "in crowd" reaped exactly what it sowed. imho. Same dynamic, different aspirations.

...so if that dynamic isn't addressed and corrected, the old vitriolic jockeying will continue to occur, albeit on a more "elevated" intellectual plane with a substantially diminished active membership and site income.

And the conundrum remains: How can ATS "Deny Ignorance" if the ignorant masses are unwelcome? …We already know that ivory towers don't work, either to properly educate those in need of education, or to finance their own existence.


...Truth is, I would absolutely LOVE being part of a well-insulated and isolated elite enclave - I just can't see how to justify it or even rationalize it. …Can someone help me out here?



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 08:40 PM
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Indeed. By no means do I claim to be one of these researchers. To the contrary, you guys kick my butt with your thought provoking threads. I have opinions and ambitions though, but I digress.

There should be another method one can use bump a thread. Something were a posted must have a certain number of stars or clout to bump it up. There could be two columns. One for flags, and one for substance, or something like that.


As far Phage... he's usually up to no good. Ha, I kid.


Originally posted by The Revenant


The Revenant.



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 08:59 PM
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Sometimes topics are just new information that cannot be extrapolated upon, and posters should be encouraged to work and research and reason together.

Some of the most interesting topics are controversial, and alternative points of view should be welcomed, to paint a more clear picture, and in the interest of truth.

Some people get offended if their theory is questioned, but I think one should welcome the insights of others, that's how we learn.


edit on 093131p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 09:22 PM
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One thing I wanted to add is the lack of follow up on information posted, if a theory or discovery is posted a year ago, and new information comes out on the subject, it is nice to add it to existing topics on the subject,

Everything is scattered.



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
And the conundrum remains: How can ATS "Deny Ignorance" if the ignorant masses are unwelcome? …We already know that ivory towers don't work, either to properly educate those in need of education, or to finance their own existence.


Well by keeping the ignorant out... that would qualify as 'deny ignorance"
..



...Truth is, I would absolutely LOVE being part of a well-insulated and isolated elite enclave - I just can't see how to justify it or even rationalize it. …Can someone help me out here?


Well let me try...
1) Wikipedia is an example of a place where you can do lots of hard research, bring out tons of documentation and post it so that people can share your work and get educated.

2) You say... "either to properly educate those in need of education" First of all what is 'proper' education? Views that you believe in? Views that satisfy Jim Oberg or the Shrike? Since most topics here are highly speculative in nature... and NO ONE has absolute proof on either side... I ask again what is 'proper' education?

3) What makes you assume that someone like me for example is here to EDUCATE anyone? I have no desire to 'educate' anyone, least of all the 'ignorant masses' as you call them. I am here to research topics I find of interest, share them with others who have similar interest and might find value and to discuss my ideas and interests with others. I am NOT here to provide anyone an 'education' merely an alternative view point, backed up as best as I can to support what I see...

If they want an education... stay in school or go back

What I don't understand is a certain group of people who hate a subject.... still feel the need to go to every thread on that subject for the soul point of calling someone a foul name, or just disrupting the thread. To what end? Does it make them feel good? Do they think they are changing anyone's mind? They never hear of just staying away?

The really hilarious thing is that by these types actually attacking such threads, they end up boosting them to the top. If there was no argument... and the topic had no value it would die...

But here at ATS the good threads that can't be debunked quickly fall off the page, while the crap ones become a Frankenstein monster.

I know of one person who went away for a bit because he was upset that people would say "I bet so and so will be here any second to debunk this" Well... if the shoe fits.... maybe it's time to try other shoes.

And then today I popped in to an old thread following a link... and I find this...


Originally posted by mckyle

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by mckyle

Originally posted by Imagir
And hope tha the "Knight" Zorgon return as soon on ATS!



Be careful what you wish for.
It might come true


If enough issue counter wishes we can neutralize it! Zorgon was a detriment to this forum. He never contributed, just busted chops. Please, don't wake the dead!


I totally agree.

For the less seasoned ATS's, he was setting a bad example in terms of erroneous analysis, and I'm sorry to say, dishonesty.

And I will leave it at that.


Now the Shrike I expect this from as he has a track record... but the other was a surprise...

With love like that, one has to wonder why anyone tries to make interesting threads, no matter your beliefs. Now I could just leave yawl to your youtube UFO fakes, but yer not getting rid of me that easy



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Sometimes topics are just new information that cannot be extrapolated upon, and posters should be encouraged to work and research and reason together.


The good threads... like Skyfloatings PARA Untersberg... had a LOT of participation and additions by many members. In fact it's one of the most participated in thread I recall with posters actually reading, following links and bringing more to the table and no debunkers.


In many cases you get people 'demanding' proof and yet won't even look at a link you posted




Some of the most interesting topics are controversial, and alternative points of view should be welcomed, to paint a more clear picture, and in the interest of truth.


I do wish certain skeptics would take that to heart




Some people get offended if their theory is questioned, but I think one should welcome the insights of others, that's how we learn.


True but some post comments deliberately to offend. Those have zero interest in learning anything... the only purpose is to disrupt or derail a topic... and since it's human nature to want to defend yourself... sadly the tactics do work to a point



One thing I wanted to add is the lack of follow up on information posted, if a theory or discovery is posted a year ago, and new information comes out on the subject, it is nice to add it to existing topics on the subject,


Hard to do sometimes. There are so many threads added daily and if you get new info on an old 5 year old thread it is sometimes hard to find it... or links in the original thread are long gone... Sometimes it is best to start a thread on the new info, but then link the older relevant data. I have also used search to find old topics... only to have some say "Why did you revive this old thing?"

You can't win


edit on 27-12-2010 by zorgon because: PHAGE has been ABDUCTED by ALIENS




posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Zorgon, I think you've definitely ruffled feathers by questioning things - this is good, and needs to be nurtured in others. Those who can't accept feathers being ruffled are inconsistent with the standards and ethics required by ATS.

Certainly, I think can all agree then that whatever the cause, ATS has indeed suffered because of the absence of proper factual investigation, as well as the people with the skills and motivation to do so. It has become a MSM media analysis unit - and a poor one at that.

The question is, how can we convince the powers that be at ATS to effect the changes necessary to bring back the 'cutting edge' and decorum to ATS that we all know is sadly lacking?

The Revenant.



posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by The Revenant
 



...how can we convince the powers that be at ATS to effect the changes necessary to bring back the 'cutting edge' and decorum to ATS that we all know is sadly lacking?


The premise of your OP is that ATS quality has plummeted due to an overwhelming influx of relatively uneducated and rude members.

I do agree that ATS quality has fallen, and that we are over-run by trolls. However, I'm still not certain I agree with your analysis of the situation, specifically with regard to "cause" and real, not romanticized, history. May I humbly suggest that ATS' "quality down-grade" results as much, if not more, from efforts by a long-lived internal faction to maintain "control of the boards," and out-of-control competitive shenanigans by certain staff members? …That their shenanigans and efforts simply back-fired?

…I especially noticed the trolls when I returned earlier this year, noted that they were a "new breed," and started a thread about it. My goal was to investigate the marketing principles behind the phenomenon - it was patently obvious that legions of trolls were being "sent out" with discrete agendas, charged with blogging and posting "the word." Never mind the alphabet agents and political hacks - it was clear that legions of ordinary people were being organized to promote products, their churches' beliefs, and etc. - some paid, others 'voluntary.'

The topic was legitimate; my observations were accurate and academic; and my thread got a lot of attention quite quickly. Posts were polite. Nonetheless, the thread was trashed
- along with a couple other of my threads that looked to become "popular." Overall, the message I received was quite clear - keep your head down, stay out of sight and follow the crowd - or leave. …I can only assume other legitimate posters have received the same message.

One thing I absolutely loved about the old ATS is that members routinely posted with a great deal of personal passion - and developed their topics because they truly cared. However, I do not think that historic passion disappeared because ATS was inundated with new-era Internet marketing trolls, which it certainly was - I think the in-crowd and their minions drove off all the passionate members who did not bow to their little hierarchical dominion.

It's one thing to have a closed shop and a hidden agenda - quite another to have it shoved in your face, with vitriol. So again, the in-crowd reaped what it sowed, in spades. Now they're whining about it?

A current thread comes to mind - Human evolution: A simple calculation indicates that human evolution may have been turbo charged - tauristercus posted an intriguing view on evolution. But it wasn't the religious trolls who tried to kill the thread, it was our "scientific experts."

But for those able to see, even the new troll-ridden ATS is peppered with veritable gems. Here's my last post defending tauristercus:





...the 1st evidence of life (simple cells) dates back to approximately 3.8 billion years. So we can see that life appeared not to long after the creation of the Earth !.

I've always assumed that genetic mutations tended to occur relatively slowly and accumulated over long periods of time through a process of natural selection ... but here's the hard to believe part ... at least for me.

We have a total of approximately 3.164 billion nucleotide base pairs.
We have a period of approximately 3.8 billion years since the dawn of life.

So, a simple bit of maths shows that to get from that original extremely simple cell to a human, means that random evolution coupled with natural selection pressures had to SUCCESSFULLY add a completely new rung to the ladder on average almost EVERY SINGLE YEAR !!


tauristercus - You've taken a lot of heat here over your apparently simplistic equation. Never mind the trolls, you've been told by "educated" experts that you don't understand the concept of evolution, the science, yada yada. There's something you need to know...

ATS has a core group of "experts" equipped with degrees, dogma and the consequential, requisite closed minds. They are so busy vaunting their own expertise and fortifying their cloistered little enclave, they have virtually NO ability to recognize legitimate new ideas. They cannot accommodate alternate perspectives; they cannot evaluate original thinking; they cannot tolerate "heresy." In general, the most vicious attacks are generated by these self-proclaimed "educated" experts defending their turf.

Ignore their vitriol, keep moving, keep thinking and keep posting.

Your numbers make perfect sense from the farthermost perspective - when the human species is considered to be a superorganism. In this context, a superorganism is a collection of individual agents like viruses and bacteria, which come together and work cooperatively to create a complex organism (eg., the human superorganism).

Arguably, any legitimate review of a superorganism's evolution must consider the distinct evolutionary path of the superorganism's originally discrete components. As well, we need to recognize that these components maintain the ability to evolve discretely.

From this larger viewpoint, your observations are dead on. And you are right, humankind's evolutionary path is most properly understood as "beginning" with the first microbe's evolution.

imho, your perspective is essential to a proper understanding of "evolution" - both in terms of "where we came from" and as well, to better grasp the concept, mechanics and potential directions of our continuuing evolution.



ATS stated objective is "Deny Ignorance." But in practice the message is clear: follow our lead; pursue only topics that we approve; develop only our stated premise and theme; contribute only research that we can use. …Seems to me we're facing a veritable host of conflicting agendas.

Does ATS need to re-evaluate its objective(s)?



posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


I think you may misunderstand my points - I have been arguing against the OP's position. Please see my post above.

Thanks, sofi



posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


No you can't win, I have seen very good topics with little participation, that's sad.



posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by soficrow
 


shenanigans?

that sounds interesting,




posted on Dec, 28 2010 @ 11:22 AM
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I used to bother with researching a topic form a conspiracy angle, I wouldn’t really call it investigative but I would spend days and weeks researching a topic then write a thread showing my findings with a full reference list. The problem however is twofold, firstly we have what you call “trolls” who do their best to destroy these threads if they contradict something that the conspiracy theorist community in general hold to be true. For example say one member writes a massive thread fully referenced (with decent references) showing that it is possible for a plane to have cause the twin towers to collapse, the author of said thread is flamed and up against up to 100 or more members determined to prove him wrong. With such odds the author of the thread has no change, is flamed, ignored, insulted and in the end will probably just give up.

The second problem is the problem i have with bother to go away and properly research a topic, investigate it you will, then report back to ATS with a nice long thread. The problem is other threads, that have less work put into them but are more spectacular. So for example say one member goes off a wrights a really good investigate thread, the reality is that the same day another member has wrote a thread about how he was abducted by ET or has predicted the end of the earth and those are the threads that get the most attention. I have personally experienced this on ATS, I wrote a “investigative thread” about the crash of pan am 103, but everyone else on ATS was too busy discussing a “look at these pretty pictures” type thread.

There really is not point in writing an investigative thread when the reality is that everyone is going to go off reading about the guy who’s been talking to the reptilians every day and anyone who does post on your thread just flames you for it. as they all fall about them self’s worshiping the starchild who has just been reviled on ATS.

What we really need is a mod’s choice forum, were any thread a mod gives a applause to automatically goes. That way the good threads wouldn’t get lost amongst the majority of rubbish that sometimes plagues this grate site.



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