Where are all the ATS investigators?

reply to post by The Revenant

To elaborate on my term 'investigators' - I mean people that actually bring EVIDENCE to the table.

...I think having a proper 'journalistic' and investigative corps would provide content that isn't simply 'milked' from mainstream media and blogs. Thereby infinitely raising the quality of said content in one fell-swoop.

Another "real news" site? But without a real budget? When all the established news media are scrambling, unable to fund their projects because their revenues don't cover costs and the Internet doesn't pay? And the Net is already full of "real" news footage and "real" drama and "real" reality shows - serious competition from the teeming masses themselves? ...and at a time when vocal dissent is even more likely to result in charges of "sedition" than during WWI and the Bush era?

...imho - what's missing (everywhere) is unflinching analysis and thoughtful, well-reasoned perspectives alternative to the mainstream - different takes on the same information - creative presentations, accessible language and multi-media formats that develop the intrinsic interactive potential of a 'thread.' Outside the old journalistic box -which no longer works- in a vein similar to TheJuiceMedia on youtube. ...Presentations that make people think, rather than tell them what to think - and which look beyond the obvious at history, larger context and the like.

Unfortunately, the best reward system and motivator is actual cash. Beyond that, peoples' motivations tend to be fairly personal (as do their obstacles) and only occasionally, are altruistic.

Still, any commitment to "Deny Ignorance" must embrace the ignorant in order to accomplish anything constructive or worthwhile.

In that light, imho - what's also missing are members trained in the Socratic method as well as more esoteric or sufistic teaching approaches... Perhaps ATS could start training a few quiet teachers.

AND / OR...

ATS could "cordon off" an area for more serious revelations and civilized discussion - create a hierarchy with an "elite core" at the top, and a system of "ascension." ...Ie., members would have to "prove their worth" before they could play with the big boys. (More like a series of college certificates and university degrees than a secret society.) ...Right now, the 'terms of ascension' are more populist than elitist, which seems to leave you dissatisfied and unfulfilled.

AND / OR...

?????

No, you actually proved mine.

Originally posted by The Revenant

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Why does someone else have to be this wonderful investigator? What have you done, and what wonderfully investigated threads have you contributed? If it is so full of trolls here, why are you here?

You prove my point with your 'contribution'.

Re-read my OP again, and engage brain before typing

So far, (as usual) I've heard no constructive ideas - does anyone have any?

Rev.

edit on 25-12-2010 by The Revenant because: (no reason given)

reply to post by hotbakedtater


How I miss the ignore function!

Rev.

reply to post by The Revenant


...I answered thoughtfully, respectfully. Presented several ideas. But you ignore me.

I thought I was speaking as an ATS "investigator" but now realize I don't meet your criteria. You don't mean investigator-members like me who walked away from the experts' puerile vitriolic attacks, do you?

You're actually lobbying for that vitriolic, puerile, self-aggrandizing Old Guard closed shop of experts, aren't you? The ones who claimed turf by peeing on everything and everyone who looked or sounded different, or appeared not to be American, or had different viewpoints, or made mistakes? The ones who did everything they could to drive off anyone who got in their way or tripped over their agenda, however accidentally? THAT bunch of expert "investigators"?

The ones who claim to be better than ordinary people, by virtue of their expertise, and expected everyone to lick their boots and kiss their patooties for the privilege of their company and vitriolic criticism? THOSE "investigators"?

...ATS is in transition. ATS is always in transition. Like the Internet. Like the world. Always changing and there's no going back. Get over it.

reply to post by The Revenant


As a member of the EBE Intelligence Agency, I can safely say that even "investigators"
take a break on major holidays.

Happy Holidays everyone!

reply to post by The Revenant


Well, aren't I an utter fool. Didn't notice certain things, missed the mark totally it seems. My apologies.

...Like you, I miss some of the people who are gone and yes, I do think thread and post quality is down. But.

Is that what really matters? ...Depends. ...What is ATS about?

If ATS' main objective is to "Deny Ignorance," then 'the ignorant' MUST be welcome. No one walks into this world well-informed and wise from birth; few who join ATS are already fully informed. Many are young and inexperienced, others don't speak English well. ...One does not deny ignorance by pointing fingers and calling names - or even by offering accurate information, however well-articulated.

imho - The main task involved in "denying ignorance" is teaching - teaching how to investigate, evaluate and think. NOT by providing "accurate" information, but by encouraging scepticism and enquiry; NOT by teaching what to think, but by teaching how to think. And yes, it's a Sisyphusian endeavor.

Does it seem to you that ATS is choosing site popularity, hits and revenue over "truth"? Does this strike you as wrong?

...imho - there's no point speaking in specialized languages few understand, no point carving a niche that's relegated to the dungeons if the goal is to "deny ignorance." In fact, the more popular ATS becomes, the greater its reach and the greater the site's sharing/educating potential.

RE: Dumbing down, trolls and quantity over quality.

imho - Those of us who feel we have something important to say and valuable information to share, need to make the transition and learn the "new language" evolving in the communications media. It's a new world. A new landscape. And the only landmark is the Tower of Babel. The chief commonality is that no one speaks the same language, and all are confounded.

Scientists and academics led the charge on this one - collectively, they thought it unimportant to speak with the ignorant and uninitiated. To the great detriment of them, us and the entire world. We will pay a long, long time for that little bit of hubris.

We ALL need to learn how to speak to one another, to share information in interesting accessible ways.

We need to think about marketing idea and information, about attracting and engaging attention in different ways than we learned were "right." The best I can come up with so far is this:

Creative presentations, accessible language and multi-media formats that develop the intrinsic interactive potential of a 'thread.' Outside the old journalistic box -which no longer works- in a vein similar to TheJuiceMedia on youtube. ...Presentations that make people think, rather than tell them what to think...

Haven't done it yet, but will be experimenting soon.

...And to all my gonned friends - you are sorely missed. Please, reconsider.

I wasn't impressed with how they based their choices of "Investigators"
Maybe that is a residual resentment that My offer to be one was ignored and overlooked

reply to post by soficrow


Excellent points Soficrow - yes, you missed the goal on the first kick, but got it into the back of the net on the next one

I completely agree with you on all points. Could it be said that we are beginning to form a consensus that ATS has now become too commercialised for the 'old skool' users, the ones that KNOW how to investigate, and that could TEACH others to investigate? Perhaps also teach others how to debate via socratic methodology? Even, the practitioners of good forum etiquette?

Rev.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I wasn't impressed with how they based their choices of "Investigators"
Maybe that is a residual resentment that My offer to be one was ignored and overlooked

Slayer, as a respected and well travelled prolific contributor, I value your words above many.

Can you explain a little more about how you feel on this? I wasn't aware that there had BEEN any 'choices' about investigators or journalists in terms of ATS staff or 'selections'?

Also, what were the criteria that you were aware of?

The Revenant.

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by The Revenant

 

You answered your own question...

...the seething mass of half-breed trolls and other ATS species jump on them like savages...

Indeed Chad!

IRM

I haven't really posted for a while due to real life taking importance to ATS contributions, but your thread has piqued my interest. It would appear that the scourge of society we call Facebook has inflated member numbers at ATS, but reduced significantly the intelligence of contribution. Text talking trolls are on the up and interesting threads get quashed by rants on gay Islamic agendas created by NWO reptilians who are hungry for human blood.

For a time I posted some photo stories and wondered if other members would be inspired enough to do the same. Yes, we've had Street View, but this is a very American centric ATS exercise in disseminating information. The owners of ATS got right behind that initiative and have promised a broader, slicker version in the weeks to come. This investigative model would be much better if it included the ATS international member base and we could get opinion/news from other corners of the world.

Another poster says cash is perhaps the ultimate incentive to get people out investigating and reporting. I disagree and believe that the owners of ATS should make more of an effort to encourage members to chase stories by offering the same level of thread advertisement as they did with Street View, ATS Comics and the Conspiracy Chicks.

I am sure there are many people on this board who would favour kudos as an initial incentive to bringing news stories to the forum boards. All-in-all, quality threads deserve attention, and an investigative wing to ATS is a good idea, but the owners need to provide the right platform in order to broadcast the stories to the member base.

reply to post by The Revenant


Thank you much for your gracious response, Rev.

...Could it be said that we are beginning to form a consensus that ATS has now become too commercialised for the 'old skool' users, ...

The entire Internet has become too commercialized for 'old school' users. Too crowded, too noisy, too silly, vacuous, trivial, unfocused, irrelevant. And it's an old story. Long ago, scientists and academics stopped talking to ordinary people, well-educated people stopped engaging the un-educated, the informed ignore the un-informed. It's about difference - language, history, background, context, framework - those who know have it, those who don't, lack it. So the educated and informed insulate and isolate themselves from the seething masses, while the successful endeavors commercialize, play to the lowest common denominator - and sell products, win elections.

...the ones that KNOW how to investigate, and that could TEACH others to investigate?

Having knowledge does not confer the ability to share said knowledge, nor the ability to teach. Most unfortunately.

But if we really are to "Deny Ignorance," we all need to figure out how to share with, engage, teach the ignorant and uninformed. Else we're just seeking our own "pack" - finding our own identities, filling our own personal psychological needs for belonging, status, place. Not small things, and nothing to be ashamed of - just not on point here, given the stated objective.

The best investigators and teachers leave their egos at the door, and don't look for recognition or acknowledgment. They see a need, fill it quietly, move on. At the most basic level, their goal is not to impart "accurate information," but simply the awareness that some information is more important than other data, some is accurate, some not. ...A "good teacher" recognizes "good students" and each student's "level," knows what's required to 'bump' the individual up to the next level of awareness. ...Good teaching teams tackle 'cultures' and societies with same kind of awareness, the same lack of ego - and with no agenda except the commitment to "free" the individual and culture to make their own 'free' choices.

The possibility exists here to effect real change, needed change. But not in any "old school" way. The relevant teaching skills have much more to do with mystical traditions than academic or political studies - and nothing to do with individual posturing. [Posturing helps build fan clubs, but in the end, teaches crap. Just justifies crass commercialization and perpetuates messiah myths.]

Perhaps also teach others how to debate via socratic methodology? Even, the practitioners of good forum etiquette?

Be aware that "old school" methods don't work any more. They never really did. As indicated earlier, my own experiences with one of ATS' "old school" factions were neither pleasant nor edifying - and certainly not "educational."

At worst, Socratic methodology is just a power trip. At its best, it works as a teaching method if the student is already engaged - but 'students' are NOT engaged in the new Internet culture. So that's the second task - engagement. [The first task - attracting them here - has been accomplished.]

RE: Good forum etiquette.

The "old school" shunned those who didn't play by the rules - an appropriate response if the goal is to create a club, assign status, define "the pack," ostracize the 'incompatible' - and create an enclave. However, if the goal is to awaken an entire culture, then "old school" methods won't work. The entire culture must needs be embraced, and a transitional period of chaos recognized as inevitable.

...Real teachers are needed to make it through the chaos - ones who understand the objective, recognize the steps required to meet same, who have accepted the need to play Sisyphus' role.

How? ...Patience, modelling, patience, guidance, patience, recommending/imparting alternate skills and techniques, patience, censure only as a last resort, patience. Probably not possible without deep pure spiritual strength.

...At the same time, the "teachers" do need their 'payoffs' - they need time and place to pursue their own personal and intellectual development, to recharge, re-affirm, re-align, reassurance that everyone's on the same page.

Personally, I plan to leave the working world behind next year and enter a semi-retirement. I plan to "live on the road" and attempt to raise awareness 1 on 1 as to what our government is doing to us. There are many coffee shops and cafes where people still meet and trade ideas. So many of these people are nanny state liberals though. They not only accept what the government is doing, they desire it. They do not understand the danger. "A government big enough to give you all you desire is big enough to take it all away." Talking and venting here online is not working. ATS has what 200,000 members? More? If everyone of us convinced 2 people of the dangers and they convinced 2 people and they convinced 2 people. We could have millions of followers in a couple weeks.

There are still alot of good investigators on here like protoplasmic_traveler, and wcitizen come to mind. Obviously skeptical_overload is one too, but that's obvious.


In any case, it takes alot of time and resources that do the work that is required to create one of these "conspiracy of all conspiracy" type threads with 10's of thousands of works, and articles researched with precision. Im sure it also feels like a waste when someone does all this work, and then gets 1 reply, while other sensationalist posts get 100x the views and flags.


Speaking of which, where is Phage these days?

Originally posted by v1rtu0s0
There are still alot of good investigators on here like protoplasmic_traveler, and wcitizen come to mind. Obviously skeptical_overload is one too, but that's obvious.

In any case, it takes alot of time and resources that do the work that is required to create one of these "conspiracy of all conspiracy" type threads with 10's of thousands of works, and articles researched with precision. Im sure it also feels like a waste when someone does all this work, and then gets 1 reply, while other sensationalist posts get 100x the views and flags.

Speaking of which, where is Phage these days?

I am a fan of the Traveller's work as well - excellent threads created by an excellent mind.

Your second paragraph introduces probably one of the most important topics to appear in this discussion. The issue of QUALITY threads being outpaced and out-positioned by sensationalist TRIPE.

I really don't care about gay-agenda muslims that want to jihad us all to death, whilst taking away our guns and causing earthquakes by making Nibiru angry that we haven't supplied its' stock of kool-aid yet. [/sarcasm]

You're so on the money when you suggest that the people who put in the work, don't get the reward. Their threads are buried by the swarm of fox news threads constantly on the front page. Also, when a particularly juicy thread comes up that we all want to be able to read in a concise and useful format - we know it wont last long because the 'Facebook' noobs will come along and fill the thread with virtual spam posts that add nothing to the thread. This is what I call thread 'saturation'.

Phage is apparently off binge-drinking somewhere the lucky devil.

The Revenant.

reply to post by soficrow


I have to say Soficrow - the Scholar badge suits you well!

Some excellent thoughts in your last post.

Perhaps then, a training course needs to be drawn up, which requires an examination to pass. This training course will contain modules on the subjects you've identified, resulting in increased site privileges once completed and exam passed. This would seperate the casual conspiracy buffs from serious contributors to the field of expertise we are discussing.

You could almost call it a 'Conspiracy Academy'.

I know it's wacky - but I'm solutions person

Rev.

reply to post by The Revenant


Thanks. But sometimes my ambitions far exceed my abilities. Re:

QUALITY threads being outpaced and out-positioned by sensationalist TRIPE

...I tried. I really did. Looked hard and long for good threads, forced myself to scan threads with titles that didn't interest me, found one or two good ones, buried, but have to give up. Just can't waste any more time.

Yep. We gotta go with the Academy. Separate the substantial threads/posters from the empty drivel... At the same time though, the populist movement is also right - need to do both.

reply to post by soficrow

Separate the substantial threads/posters from the empty drivel...

Hmmm, I as well read through the post this morning, It seems somewhat arrogant to decided 99.9 percent of the posters and their post here on ATS are of no value,

Variety is the spice of life.

I think the flag system is what detracts from the serious threads getting much attention.
Flags don't represent what is important but what is popular.
Most of the other boards I visit have a system where the MOST IMPORTANT or well researched threads are PINNED by moderators or staff (reflecting the standards of the site)
It encourages people to work harder to get their thread pinned for a whole day. And therefore, work harder to
come up with serious hard hitting content to please the admins.

The less important/news worthy only stay on top of the recent posts due to lots of replies. So you know these are populist threads that you can visit if your in the mood for like that kind of thing.

But the two types are clearly defined. Whereas here, there is no line between the educational and absurd.
You have to exhaust a lot of time and energy to sort the wheat from the chaffe. And lately it's getting less worth the effort.

I've come in for a visit and found the most ridiculous threads flagged to heaven and back and I think, they have to
be kidding? This stuff wouldn't see the light of day anywhere else. A gazillion flags is like a Pin here. So its equivalent to the membership of a board being able to Pin their own threads. It doesn't happen anywhere else.
It would result in well....what's beginning to happen here at ATS.

So my point being, I think it's the flagging system that is turning a lot of people off doing serious research and putting in the extra mile. As a lot of topics that need the research aren't "sexy" enough to flag as they are mostly ignored by the people who visit. This is where the mods and admin can lead the way by making those threads top of the pile so people can see that is the kind of work that is respected and encouraged.

Don't know if thats make any sense of even if it's relevant. But I think it does highlight one of the reasons why there is a lack on investigators here on ATS.

reply to post by Stormdancer777
reply to post by soficrow


Why are you putting words in my mouth? Are you trying to pick a fight with me?

Please, read my posts. NOWHERE did I quote any numbers - and more than anyone, I've been defending the "populist" stream.

Ah. You're making a point about trolls. Clever boy.