Originally posted by infojunkie2
Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
I'm tired of people pussyfooting around about the issue and pretending that gays are as natural as the sun rising in the morning. It's not, it's
unnatural and it is an individual choice each one makes. Period.
Now I'm going to put on my flame retardent suit over my body armour and wait for replies.
Originally posted by seeashrinkActually you just said what many people dont have the gut's to, or are too concerned about being politically
correct or like to go with the most popular opinion in the room or thread for that matter.now take a bow.
Big 'ol X. Wrong-o. And there's no "pretending" about anything here. Homosexuality has been scientifically observed in nature. It has been studied
in animals extensively. It has been shown to be very common existing in well over 1500 animal species. It has been shown to have evolutionary purpose
that helps species to thrive. In nature, it is not a "fluke" or "freak" occurrence, in some species animals that prefer homosexual sex are just as
common or even more common than animals that engage in heterosexual sex. In some species homosexual pairs mate for life and raise young together, in
other species they do it for pleasure/socialization. Point being, you cannot say that "homosexuality is unnatural" because this would be factually
incorrect, a lie. It is like saying "the earth is flat" or "oranges are blue". It's just not true. You of course are entitled to your own opinion
as everyone is, however as the saying goes, "you are not entitled to your own facts"...thus you cannot pass off a statement like "homosexuality is
unnatural" as if it is "opinion". It is not "opinion" but rather "false", "not true", "incorrect", "factually inaccurate", etc. whatever
debate some people might *think* exists, has already been scientifically settled. There is no debate. Homosexuality is common and widespread in
nature, hence natural. And just so we are clear, "natural
: nat·u·ral (n ch r- l, n ch r l). adj. Present in or produced by nature. 2. Of,
relating to, or concerning nature"...Also I have had some people throw back at me this idea that "just because animals do it doesn't mean we
should", when I point out that homosexuality is natural/occurs in nature. This is not even an "argument", it is flawed logic at best. Of course
humans should not do everything an animal does "just because animals do it too" however, just because an animal does it doesn't necessarily mean
humans shouldn't do it either. There are many things that animals do that humans have in common, and vice versa, there are things that animals do
that humans don't and shouldn't do. However, this is not the point. The point is homosexuality is natural, and thus those people who make arguments
like "homosexuality is unnatural therefor gays shouldn't be allowed to marry, raise kids, etc." are just straight up ignorant or lying about the
facts. Hope that is clear...and for further clarification, I offer an ample about of scientific evidence, research and links below.
A general overview:
Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual and bisexual behavior in animals...Such behaviors include sex,
courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting among same sex animals. A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior
has been observed in close to 1,500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. Animal sexual behavior
takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood,
since most species have yet to be fully studied. According to Bagemihl, "the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity —
including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex — than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to
accept." Current research indicates that various forms of same-sex sexual behavior are found throughout the animal kingdom. A new review made
in 2009 of existing research showed that same-sex behavior is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom, common across species.
Homosexual behavior has been documented in well over 1500 animal species and is well studied in 500 of them and is though, as mentioned above, to be
"nearly universal" in the animal kingdom, "common across species":
Important new evidence on a plausible mechanism for the evolution of "gay genes" has emerged from the work of Camperio-Ciani. They found in
two large, independent studies that the female relatives of homosexual men tended to have significantly more offspring than those of the heterosexual
men. Female relatives of the homosexual men on their mother's side tended to have more offspring than those on the father's side. This indicates
that females carrying a putative "gay genes" complex are more fecund than women lacking this complex of genes, and thereby can compensate for any
decreased fertility of the males carrying the genes. This is a well known phenomenon in evolution known as "sexual antagonism," and
has been widely documented for many traits that are advantageous in one sex but not in the other. This provides solid experimental
evidence of how "gay genes" could not only survive but thrive over the course of evolution.
An exhibit in an Oslo museum called "Against Nature" took on the claim that "homosexuality is unnatural" and scientifically shows this claim to be
wrong. The exhibit also notes that homosexuality in animals is neither some "fluke" or "freak" occurrence, that there is a wide variety of
behavior and motivations, some same sex animal couple rear young together (for example by "adopting" young whose parents have died, or were
separated from each other, or have rejected them), some animal couples are monogamous for life, some do it for pleasure, some for social bonding
reasons, among a wide variety of other reasons.
A National Geographic article says that nearly 75% of bonobo sex is non-reproductive, and all engage in homosexual behavior, making them a bisexual
This article notes another fully bisexual animal society, dwarf chimpanzees. Also talks about some bird species, like black-headed gulls, where 1 in
10 couples are same sex that pair for life and will "adopt" and raise young together.
Animals that live a completely homosexual life can also be found. This occurs especially among birds that will pair with one partner for life,
which is the case with geese and ducks. Four to five percent of the couples are homosexual. Single females will lay eggs in a homosexual pair's nest.
It has been observced that the homosexual couple are often better at raising the young than heterosexual couples.
A study of sexuality in rams, notes that 8% of male rams prefer same sex partners, also notes anatomical differences in neuron clusters and
differences in how the brain processes certain hormones in homosexual vs. heterosexual rams and states "results suggest that naturally occurring
variations in sexual partner preferences may be related to differences in brain anatomy and capacity for estrogen synthesis."
Article discusses a variety of species and the range of behaviors in homosexual pairs. Notes that the Guianan Cock-of-the-rock, (Rupicola rupicola)
almost 40% of the males are homosexual (although a small % of this group will mate with females, making some bisexual) also 25% of Australian black
swans are homosexual couples and that they will either steal eggs or a female will lay eggs in their nest for them, which the homosexual couple then
raise together. Also, homosexual sex is more common than heterosexual sex in the American bison...article also talks about macaques, bonobos,
giraffes, and a few others.
A recent paper by Young and colleagues documents long-term female pairs in >30% of Laysan albatross on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. The unrelated
females bred successfully, challenging ideas about cooperative breeding, alternative reproductive strategies and perhaps even the evolution of sexual
And another paper by the same researcher focusing on same sex behavior in animals and evolution and how homosexuality has many evolutionary advantages
that have been observed that help the species to thrive:
The same researchers found that homosexual behavior was "nearly universal" across animal species, meaning that examples can be found in just about
every species observed in nature.
And finally a couple books on the subject:
"Evolution's rainbow: diversity, gender, and sexuality in nature and people"
"Homosexual behaviour in animals: an evolutionary perspective"
"Biological exuberance: animal homosexuality and natural diversity"