"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by Annee

NO! They Don't

I don't think you even understand the concept of rights.

You mean full and equal human rights - don't fit in your chosen literal perception of narrow minded equal.

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by Annee
Only the ignorant and digging up ancient data or data from some pro religion sight still accepts homosexual orientation as choice.

Yes - there are those who fall in the "middle of the scale" who can swing either way and be affected by environment/parenting -- they are called "Bi".

I don't think it's a choice either, but sexual orientation can change.

Really? How? You won't get any defined hetero saying they chose to be hetero.

Sexual identity is "all shades of gray". There are those who swing both ways. There are those who Choose to Live Straight - - but it does not change their sexual orientation - - they are still gay.

Originally posted by Annee
Sexual identity is "all shades of gray". There are those who swing both ways. There are those who Choose to Live Straight - - but it does not change their sexual orientation - - they are still gay.

Sexual orientation is defined by the person's preference, preferences (including sexual) can and do change.

Originally posted by Annee
You mean full and equal human rights - don't fit in your chosen literal perception of narrow minded equal.

Not quite sure what you mean, I explained myself further in that post, was something in particular unclear?

Personally I wish the government would get it's nose out of my marraige. I guess "full and equal human rights" would require the government to stick it's nose into even more kinds of relationships? The governments involvement is invasive and removes individual freedom (and you're demanding more of it lol). Maybe they should set up special legal rights and obligations for best friends next, siblings, grandparents, roomates etc. etc. etc. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE interfere in my relationship too!

LOL.

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by Annee
You mean full and equal human rights - don't fit in your chosen literal perception of narrow minded equal.

Not quite sure what you mean, I explained myself further in that post, was something in particular unclear?

Personally I wish the government would get it's nose out of my marraige. I guess "full and equal human rights" would require the government to stick it's nose into even more kinds of relationships?

Legal Marriage is a government contract to protect rights and property of those joining together as One. That's it.

It has nothing to do with relationships or love. What you personally make of marriage is up to you.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Personally I wish the government would get it's nose out of my marraige. I guess "full and equal human rights" would require the government to stick it's nose into even more kinds of relationships? The governments involvement is invasive and removes individual freedom (and you're demanding more of it lol). Maybe they should set up special legal rights and obligations for best friends next, siblings, grandparents, roomates etc. etc. etc. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE interfere in my relationship too!

LOL.

So your issue with marriage is personal and has nothing to do with gays getting married.

Glad that's cleared up.

Originally posted by Annee
Legal Marriage is a government contract to protect rights and property of those joining together as One. That's it.

It has nothing to do with relationships or love.

Not sure I ever said otherwise... ?

The government imposes itself upon the relationship, it doesn't matter if my spouse and I disagree with the legalities that they attach to our relationship, they are applied just the same. Once again, the government's involvement erodes individual freedom.

"It's not FAIR, erode OUR freedom too!" is just hilarious to me.

You do realize that in many cases the legalities associated with marraige can be imposed upon a couple even if they never got married, correct? You do realize that many gay people are dead-set against gay marraige, correct?

Originally posted by SevenBeans
The government imposes itself upon the relationship, it doesn't matter if my spouse and I disagree with the legalities that they attach to our relationship, they are applied just the same. Once again, the government's involvement erodes individual freedom.

You do realize that in many cases the legalities associated with marraige can be imposed upon a couple even if they never got married, correct? You do realize that many gay people are dead-set against gay marraige, correct?

I'm not sure how you think the government - - beyond marriage being a legal contract for personal rights and protection - - is involved and erodes individual freedom.

I was married 14 years the first time - - and just celebrated my 21st anniversary in the second. Never had any issues with the government as far as interfering in my marriage.

Why are many gay people dead-set against gay marriage?

Originally posted by Annee
I'm not sure how you think the government - - beyond marriage being a legal contract for personal rights and protection - - is involved and erodes individual freedom.

Are you serious? I didn't agree to all of these conditions and neither did my wife, we simply had a religious ceremony in which we declared our commitment to each other and then the government came in and applied all kinds of legalities and obligations which they didn't apply to us two seconds earlier.

Originally posted by Annee
Why are many gay people dead-set against gay marriage?

Because they don't need the government imposing conditions upon their personal relationships...

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Are you serious? I didn't agree to all of these conditions and neither did my wife, we simply had a religious ceremony in which we declared our commitment to each other and then the government came in and applied all kinds of legalities and obligations which they didn't apply to us two seconds earlier.

You're lying. You see, you can stand in front of any monkey in a suit and say your vows with your wife, or your wives, or your favorite Catwoman cardboard cutout, and the government does not give a flip.

Did you apply for a marriage license? If so, then you, of your free will and volition, decided to make a contract with your lady, a contract that you chose to have backed up by the legal power of your state's government.

If you did not go through the license process, then you are not legally married, and the state does not care about who, what, or how many you are "married" to.

Unless you try to claim them as spouses on your tax forms, then that's just the government calling you on being a tax cheat.

Originally posted by Annee
Why are many gay people dead-set against gay marriage?

Because they don't need the government imposing conditions upon their personal relationships...

Hi, newsflash; you don't get to be the Gay People Spokesperson.

If your argument were true, then very few people would be seeking the right to legally marry. Which, given the enormous lines at the courthouses of every state that passed pro-marriage legislature after the laws were passed, is f'ing clearly not the case, isn't it?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
And do you think those people do not deserve equal rights? 'Cause that's the crux of the matter here. If you oppose someone having their rights, you are not that person's friend.

Gay people have every right that I have.

NO - they don't.

YES - they do...

Gays have more rights in western countries than straight people.

Positive discrimination etc. If there's a disagreement in work between a straight person and a gay person, nine times out of ten it will be the straight person who is punished, as employers don't want to run the risk of accidently discriminating against a gay person.

Thus, it's easier for the system to clamp down on a straight person as there's less chance the company will be liable for discrimination.

This has happened more times than i like to remember.

It's about time, straight people got some equality.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
You're lying. You see, you can stand in front of any monkey in a suit and say your vows with your wife, or your wives, or your favorite Catwoman cardboard cutout, and the government does not give a flip.

Did you apply for a marriage license? If so, then you, of your free will and volition, decided to make a contract with your lady, a contract that you chose to have backed up by the legal power of your state's government.

If you did not go through the license process, then you are not legally married, and the state does not care about who, what, or how many you are "married" to.

Incorrect, the government can treat your relationship like a marraige even if you never got a marraige license and they can even apply the legalities and obligations of marraige to people who never got married at all.

It's also illegal for a pastor to marry you without a marraige license so it isn't voluntary, you either get a marraige license or you don't get married by a pastor.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Hi, newsflash; you don't get to be the Gay People Spokesperson.

I'm just repeating what gay people have told me.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
If your argument were true, then very few people would be seeking the right to legally marry. Which, given the enormous lines at the courthouses of every state that passed pro-marriage legislature after the laws were passed, is f'ing clearly not the case, isn't it?

edit on 27-1-2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)

I'm sure you understand the difference between the very simple words "many" and "all."

reply to post by mr-lizard


Sexuality is not a protected class in federal employment regulations (I'm unsure about given states of municipalities; I do know that most simply follow whatever the federal regs are.) Thus why there's an effort to pass the Employment non-Discrimination act.

Right now, in most of the country, you can fire a gay person for being gay, and you can tell them so right to their faces.

You can also fire a straight person for being straight, come to think of it.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Incorrect, the government can treat your relationship like a marraige even if you never got a marraige license and it's quite common for the government to apply the legalities and obligations of marraige to people who never got married at all.

You're going to have to back that one up.

I'm just repeating what gay people have told me.

I'm sure you have your finger right on the pulse of your locale's gay population.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I'm sure you understand the difference between the very simple words "many" and "all."

And I'm sure that you understand "many" is an unquantified sum. How many is many? Two? Seventeen? All but one? In the frame of your argument, "many" is just an "all," stripped of any responsibility on your part to back the claim up.

There's a term called "weasel words." Look it up.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
And I'm sure that you understand "many" is an unquantified sum. How many is many? Two? Seventeen? All but one? In the frame of your argument, "many" is just an "all," stripped of any responsibility on your part to back the claim up.

There's a term called "weasel words." Look it up.

Many is most of the gay people that I know, 4 out of 6 to be exact.

(I'll be sure to remove the word "many" from my vocabulary since it's such a "weasal word" lol).

And here is another thing to keep in mind - the government can CHANGE the terms of this "contract" anytime they want, so the idea that I agreed to their various involvement and legal meddling etc. etc. (which they can add to, remove, alter etc. etc. without making me "sign a new contract") is absurd.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Are you serious? I didn't agree to all of these conditions and neither did my wife, we simply had a religious ceremony in which we declared our commitment to each other and then the government came in and applied all kinds of legalities and obligations which they didn't apply to us two seconds earlier.

Like what? Be specific.

Because they don't need the government imposing conditions upon their personal relationships...

That's your issue and you are not gay. It is not a gay issue.

Originally posted by Annee
Like what? Be specific.

There are many legalities attached to marraige, posting a list of them would be pointless (since you're already aware of many of them and because you can google as easily as I can).

Originally posted by Annee
That's your issue and you are not gay. It is not a gay issue.

Huh? You asked me why gay people wouldn't want their "marraiges" to be legally recognized and I told you what some gay people have told me.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
There are many legalities attached to marraige, posting a list of them would be pointless (since you're already aware of many of them and because you can google as easily as I can).

I'll help you narrow it down. List 3.

Huh? You asked me why gay people wouldn't want their "marraiges" to be legally recognized and I told you what some gay people have told me.

Its an issue for anyone who feels the government regulates them. It is not a gay issue.

I do know a couple gays who do not agree with gay marriage because of religious reasons.

Originally posted by Annee
I'll help you narrow it down. List 3.

Why?

Here's tons of laws relating just to divorce, they vary from state to state of course.

www.divorcesource.com...

Originally posted by Annee
Its an issue for anyone who feels the government regulates them. It is not a gay issue.

Who said it was a "gay issue" whatever that means? I said many gay people are opposed to same-sex marraige.