"I have gay friends, but..." Umm... No, you don't...

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Liberation for gay people only came in the late 60s. The movement was in its infancy and we should understand that there were excesses and mismanaged opportunities. The following links discuss the birth of the movement.

www.socialistalternative.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

manhattan.about.com...

reply to post by catwhoknowsplusone


I haven't read all the thread yet, just got to your post and wanted you to know that I agree with you. I had a gay cousin. he just recently died of a liver disease. He was all that you said. I really hated and felt so sorry for how people treated him and wanted to avoid him.
We live in the Bible Belt and that makes it much harder too. What he was was phenomenal also. He grew gorgeous flowers and beautiful orchids. Also spoke several languages. He could bake some of the best cakes I ever ate!! And could sew and crochet better than me.( I am female) Also he was good at carpentry and made little end tables and flower stands. he liked classical music and also like sports. He was funny and would be the life of our Christmas parties.( But unfortunately my uncle was not tolerate of him or of his friend at the parties. He would not come.) What he was a a very caring person here on earth and it is not for me to judge him.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by neonitus

 

Not that I am gay but if you have any opinions against the way I was born in any way shape or form and you call yourself my friend, you are a liar.

Prove to me that being "Gay" is something you're born with, then we'll talk. Until then, I will judge people based upon their decisions in life.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by neonitus

 

Not that I am gay but if you have any opinions against the way I was born in any way shape or form and you call yourself my friend, you are a liar.

Prove to me that being "Gay" is something you're born with, then we'll talk. Until then, I will judge people based upon their decisions in life.

edit on 12-28-2010 by TheAgentNineteen because: (no reason given)

Prove to me that you were not born straight. Was there a time in your life that you actually had a decision to make about whether or not you would be gay or straight from that point on? You could have gone either way?

Somehow I doubt that. You were always the person you are now and forever shall be. You were either straight, or straight enough that you could make that your way of life. That is the way you were born. Others were born differently.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Prove to me that being "Gay" is something you're born with, then we'll talk. Until then, I will judge people based upon their decisions in life.

edit on 12-28-2010 by TheAgentNineteen because: (no reason given)

I am pretty sure you need to prove that it is a choice. Maybe see if you can find one gay person to say that they chose to be gay. There should be millions of them if you are right. Good luck with that.

reply to post by Sinnthia


I am pretty sure that if this thread stayed alive for 20 years there would still be the odd one coming on with the "prove you were born that way" mentality.

But I am glad they are tuning in anyway. Eventually something is going to sink in. To be honest I think we've seen a little evidence of that already.

reply to post by wayno


More than likely until the "gay gene" is found and proven, there will always people that will take that line of thought. Short of that there will be no way to prove it sufficiently to them. People that dislike gay people are probably not going to take gay peoples' words for it.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by wayno

 

More than likely until the "gay gene" is found and proven, there will always people that will take that line of thought. Short of that there will be no way to prove it sufficiently to them. People that dislike gay people are probably not going to take gay peoples' words for it.

But how many do you know who have gotten to know gay people - - - still have prejudices against them.

Excluding the extreme religious. Because many gays struggle with the religious aspect as well.

Its mostly ignorance.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
This just kills me. In EVERY gay themed thread, those opposed to homosexuals and/or homosexuality inevitably say something like, "I have gay friends, but...", followed by how they disagree with the gay rights movement or homosexuality in general. Well, I got news for you Skippy, if you were really a friend, you would not want that person to have fewer rights than you do, and/or have that person feel like a social outcast, and/or have anything but happiness in their lives and to be able to share that life with the person of their choice.

So the next time you feel the urge to tell us how you have gay friends right in the middle of telling us how homosexuality is wrong, unnatural or unworthy of equal rights, just remember that you are NOT the kind of friend anyone would want to have at best, and just a plain lying hypocrite at worst...

(An aquaintance is NOT the same as a friend...)

You know, its still possible to be friends with someone even if you disagree or dislike something about them. As long as the issue is not the sole basis of the relationship why would it matter? Friends are not acquainted through full and complete compatibility.

And yes, I do have gay friends and I also disagree with homosexuality nor do I like it. But my friendship with them is not defined by someones sexual orientation. They know I don't agree with their orientation and they don't care since our friendship was forged by something much more significant. Our camaraderie has been nurtured through the hardships of medical school which far surpasses the issues of homosexuality.

Originally posted by DrChuck
You know, its still possible to be friends with someone even if you disagree or dislike something about them. As long as the issue is not the sole basis of the relationship why would it matter? Friends are not acquainted through full and complete compatibility.

And yes, I do have gay friends and I also disagree with homosexuality nor do I like it. But my friendship with them is not defined by someones sexual orientation. They know I don't agree with their orientation and they don't care since our friendship was forged by something much more significant. Our camaraderie has been nurtured through the hardships of medical school which far surpasses the issues of homosexuality.

That's great. But I do not agree with you. I do believe you have a specific type friendship because of what you shared.

Friendship is one thing - - "Friend" is something else. I am straight. I could never call myself a real friend of a gay person without fully accepting them as Equal in all ways. As normal in all ways.

I have No But . . . with my gay friends. None.

Originally posted by Annee

That's great. But I do not agree with you. I do believe you have a specific type friendship because of what you shared.

Yes they are friends.

Friendship is one thing - - "Friend" is something else. I am straight. I could never call myself a real friend of a gay person without fully accepting them as Equal in all ways. As normal in all ways.

Hmmm...now your putting words in my mouth. When did I say I don't consider them equal? To disagree with someone is to deny them equality?

Friendship is one thing - - "Friend" is something else? Not to be rude but that was poorly attempted. I wasn't aware you were the defining source of the word "friend" and its conditions, changing them as you see fit. So you can share a friendship with a friend as well as a total stranger? Please tell me the difference.

I have No But . . . with my gay friends. None.

So what? I accept my gay friends for who are; caring, hardworking, ambitious individuals. And I also disagree with some aspects of their personalities and life just as I do with my straight friends.

reply to post by DrChuck


You know that joke?

The Lone Ranger says to Tonto as they are surrounded by "Indians".

Tonto: What are WE going to do.

And Tonto responds: What do you mean WE.

--------------------------------------------------------

If a man told me all women belong in the kitchen. We would Never be friends. No matter how friendly we became.

Believe what you want.

I

Originally posted by joechip
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

Yeah Jesus said "Judge not..." Remember? And I believe he would have been on a different level of "morality" than his followers, such as yourself (assumption). Therefore, if he didn't judge, when he had the moral superiority (which you don't) you, as a follower of his, should most certainly not. He didn't judge the thief, but decide to befriend him anyway. He loved him and overlooked the thievery. Totally different than the story you're laying down.
You see, if you consider the homosexual lifestyle to be a "sin", you are paying attention to what you believe to be another's immorality, when the Big Guy himself told you not to. Look to your own heart. Worry about that.

Bad Christian! Read your good book. (I forgive you...)

While you judged me when you said "bad Christian", I didn't judge anybody in my post, so there is nothing to be sorry for. I simply mentioned that people have a free will to determine what they believe is a sin. You are confusing judging with having an opinion. I may have an opinion that stealing is "a sin" for example. Yet you probably don't have a problem with that opinion. You only have a problem when I've got an opinion you strongly disagree with... such as for example if I thought homosexuality was a sin.

I think people should be able to decide if any given activity is sinful or not without having to worry about PC naysayers trashing their belief system as "inferior" and then saying they can't actually make real friends with specific types of people that they have deemed to be incompatible. Obviously its offensive to be told I'm not allowed to be friends with someone if I have a certain belief system, when I'll be friends with whoever I please at any time... even good friends... even best life-long soul-mate friends. And I don't care what I believe is or is not a sin, there is nothing you can do to stop me from that, regardless. I chose who I care for. Christians choose who they care for and befriend and love in every possible way. Just because you can't conceive of someone befriending someone engaged in activity they deem immoral doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

Your reference to befriend is to extend support to someone in bad circumstances and need. It is not the same thing as friendship. It is totally one way.

Gay people are not in need of anyone's charity. It is true friendship we are talking about here; the kind that involves mutuality and equality -- no looking down or feeling sorry for anyone because of who they are.

I think you totally missed the point. Jesus BEFRIENDED the thief... no doubt in part because they shared something in common... they were both deemed unworthy to live any longer by the authorities. You seem to think of Jesus as taking a pitiful view of the thief when in fact clearly they were literally on equal footing.

I know for a fact there are people who make more mistakes than me who I absolutely consider mutual friends without me having any "pity" or "looking down" as you put it. People make mistakes... in some cases more than me. Yet somehow its inconceivable to you that I can truly have a mutual benevolent relationship with them if the "mistake" were to be homosexuality?

The Christian religion makes it very abundantly clear that "everyone is a sinner". Therefore under that system it would be utterly ridiculous to say that if you believe homosexuality is a sin a non-homosexual is "better than" homosexuals, and it would also be ridiculous to say a Christian could not be a true mutual friend to a homosexual and consider the relationship to be one of equality. Yes, it can be because "sinners are sinners" and "everyone is a sinner". Get it? Homosexuality has virtually zero relevance to a "true Christian's" friendship *regardless* of whether they consider it a sin or not... and therefore the Christian is being just as charitable to the homosexual as the homosexual is being to the Christian in either case in forming the friendship!

So yes, its very easy for a "good"/"true" Christian to claim that he has homosexual friends, and yet at the same time believe his friend may end up in hell upon death due to that sexual orientation.

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by DrChuck

 

You know that joke?

The Lone Ranger says to Tonto as they are surrounded by "Indians".

Tonto: What are WE going to do.

And Tonto responds: What do you mean WE.

Oh please. You and your gay crusade. So now since I disagree or disapprove of homosexuality I'm gonna burn my friends in a witch hunt?

You treat homosexuality as if its the principal defining characteristic of a person. Did you know that gays also have additional attributes and dispositions that distinguish them individually? Such as political viewpoints, moral perspectives, religious preferences, etc?

So by your logic I can't befriend people with different religions, different political stances, or cheer for a different football team.

If a man told me all women belong in the kitchen. We would Never be friends. No matter how friendly we became.

Believe what you want.

I

Well thats your prerogative, but your decision is not a representative example of everyone, nor is your example something everyone should strive to follow.

If a woman told me all men should be rich and drive expensive cars, I wouldn't care. Its her opinion, shes allowed to have one, even if it doesn't comply with mine.

You say you could never call yourself a real friend of a gay person without fully accepting them as Equal in all ways. Yet you reject the equal right of someone to hold a contrasting opinion.

reply to post by civilchallenger

So yes, its very easy for a "good"/"true" Christian to claim that he has homosexual friends, and yet at the same time believe his friend may end up in hell upon death due to that sexual orientation.

I would have great difficulty with a person like yourself and probably would be always trying to keep my distance from you. You see, I give no credence whatsoever to the concept of sin. So everytime you brought it up in conversation I would find myself squirming because I simply could not relate to it. I would forever be "reacting" to what in my mind is an indication of a mental disorder. I would pity you and be polite, but no, I would not see a person like you as a friend, no matter how hard you tried.

I know people who have strong religious beliefs. Some of them are good people, but so long as they cannot accept the fact that I am gay without gudgement, then they will always be kept at arms length. True friendship with them will never happen as long as I have an option.

reply to post by DrChuck


You are confusing being friendly with being a friend. I am friendly, usually, with people who have different political and religious views or who have different opinions about a wide range of things.

That doesn't make us friends. I have very few people in my life who have that designation. None of them has an issue with the fact that I am gay. I like it that way.

Life is too short to try and please everyone.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by DrChuck

 

You are confusing being friendly with being a friend. I am friendly, usually, with people who have different political and religious views or who have different opinions about a wide range of things.

That doesn't make us friends. I have very few people in my life who have that designation. None of them has an issue with the fact that I am gay. I like it that way.

Life is too short to try and please everyone.

Your friendly with people who have differing opinions and views, but that doesn't make you friends? I miss your point. Who has an issue with gayness? Disagreement or disapproval means neither condemning or persecuting, its an opinion.

You know that joke?

The Lone Ranger says to Tonto as they are surrounded by "Indians".

Lone Ranger says: What are WE going to do.

And Tonto responds: What do you mean WE - white man.

--------------------------------------------------------

If a man told me - all women belong in the kitchen. We would Never be friends. No matter how friendly we became.

Believe what you want.

EDIT: I screwed it up the first time