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Originally posted by The_Phantom
You think Hamas and Hezbollah are just political groups and not religious ones? Hezbollah means, "Party of God"
But this argument is not about God existing or not, it is about presenting a solution to a very real problem in the world, that is based around a "holy land" that both Jews and Muslims want to control.
The Islamic Republic of Iran knows exactly why they fund these groups to fight against the Jews.
We can let them continue to duke it out, and they will. Or we can try to find a solution.
I ask again, do you know of a political solution that works and will bring peace? If you come up with one then use it, no need to discuss religion at all. I sincerely hope that you find one.
I wonder if you would ignore a religious solution just because it is religious? Would you really throw away peace just because it doesn't fall in line with Atheism?
Originally posted by The_Phantom
You clearly have no idea why the Islamic Republic of Iran funds them. First of all read the original Hezbollah Manifesto and you will see they don't "tea bag" the Koran as you put it, Islam is a fundamental part of who they are, just like it is in Iran. Here are some excerpts from it:
You don't seem to understand that the people involved all believe in God and that they are fighting over "Holy Land" They all view it that way, your view of it not being holy land doesn't change the fact that they kill each other over HOLY LAND.
Now view how Iran is set up as a nation, if you know anything about Islam then you will know what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad meant when he gave a speech at the UN when he call for the "mighty Lord" to "hasten the emergence" of Imam Mahdi, a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhammad. It then becomes absolutely clear why a Theocracy based on Islam would support a clearly religious group like Hezbollah. Here, this is how Iran works, read it all:
edit on 27-12-2010 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by The_Phantom
So your argument remains, ‘it doesn’t matter that all of the people involved claim that it’s about religion, it’s not, because a lot of politicians use religion to advance their goals so it’s not about religion.’
And you stand by that even though the Jews believe It is their land according to their religion,
Christian Conservatives support it because they believe the same thing and they want Israel to be a thorn in the side of the Islamic nations to prevent the spread of Sharia law, and the Muslims involved declare a holy war and fight for the holy land in the name of Allah.
So…I guess they all don’t know what they are talking about.
But, let’s talk about the nature of authority in general, what power do politicians really have? What can a politician do? They can only use preexisting ideas to motivate the people, but it is people that act on those ideas if they believe in them.
It is people that take what they believe was given to them by Yahweh, it’s people that strap bombs to their chest in the name of Allah, that drop bombs from the sky or shoot rockets from the ground for the what they all believe is Holy Land.
It’s not just any other land to the people involved, to many people it is special, you may not think it is, and billions of others may not, but billions do think so, and the people involved in the conflict all think so.[/wuote]
As your mother might say, if a billion people jumped off a cliff, would you jump with them?
And again, not all people involved think this way. The Israeli government - with a few individual exceptions - do not see it in this light. The Palestinian Authority and its comprising parties do not see it in religious terms - again, with individual exceptions. In fact the involved group MOST prone to seeing this in religious terms is the United States. The Israelis and Palestinians want somewhere safe to live - the US wants Jesus to come back and kill all the Jews.
When these people fight each other in the name of God that’s not lip service to a religion, that is action based on a belief in God. Or do you believe that when a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows himself up in the name of Allah that is lip service to religion? Do you believe that when a Jew says God wants them to have the land and then takes it in the name of God that is lip service?
Considering that all the religions involved strongly condemn murder, suicide, and theft? Yeah, it pretty much looks like a shining example of "I'm going to do what I want to do and then claim god told me to do it"
It’s not the politicians that do these things it’s religious people that do them. Do the politicians believe in what they are saying? I don’t know, that’s a legitimate argument that may not. Maybe they are just paying lip service so that the people will hear them, most do, but it doesn’t really matter if they are or not, it’s the people that believe in religion and do act on it that carry on the conflict, there is simply no getting around that fact.
I feel I've covered the role of propaganda and coercion well enough already.
Religion is the source of the conflict, from politicians or otherwise, it is at the heart of the issue.
No. The source of the conflict is a UN resolution, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine. It was this resolution that partitioned the Palestinian Mandate into an Arab state and a Jewish state. I could get into the nitty-gritty of how various parties responded to this resolution and why they did so, but it would be rather pedantic and I can tell you're not interested in historical facts.
Basically, to the Palestinian perception, the UN chunked up what was their territory and handed large parcels of it to foreigners. To Israeli perceptions, the Jewish immigrants wanted a safe place to live, and the Arabs should have been more neighborly. I'll skip over arguing who's right or wrong, but that's the crux of it.
This is a colonial-era land dispute. There's another one almost just like it between India and Pakistan, and between Northern and Southern Sudan. The British sure got a lot of mileage out of this tactic.
This power struggle between the religions existed before any modern politicians were born,
Except this isn't a religious struggle. You don't see Jews and Muslims going at it in Detroit, or Hamburg, or Sydney. This is a territorial struggle between native Arabs and their descendants, and immigrant Europeans and their descendants.
they have seen empires rise and fall. When borders change and nations crumble this religious power struggle will still exist, it will continue to outlive nations, that is unless perception changes.
If you hold this to be true then your initial idea is pretty obviously a grand waste of time, which leaves us with my solution. Bypass the religious horse-hockey and get right to the political and territorial meat that is the actual problem here.