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Solution to the Israeli–Palestinian Conflict

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posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:15 PM
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It's common knowledge that the Jews were given the land they are in now for religious reasons. Because of this they will never leave it to other people willingly. Understandably Muslims don't like the fact that the land was taken from them and given to Jews. So we have the problems that we have today, what do we do about it? The people that have the authority to make a change are well schooled in law, but perhaps not so much in religion, so they look for legal solutions, but this is not a legal problem it is a religious one. The difference between making something work and being acceptable to people and not working, is perception. If the government tells me I have to give up x amount of dollars for road construction then I tend to get grumpy around tax time, but if I have the chance to have my say on the roads being fixed I might decide that it would be to my advantage and maybe I don't mind giving up a little bit to make that happen. So how do we change the perception from: The land was taken from the Palestinians. To: Everybody can live together in peace? Might as well take a shot at it, here it goes...

"The Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying "To your descendants I have given this land; from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates." Genesis 15:18

"And I will make for you (Abraham) a great nation and I will bless you and make your name famous, and you will be a blessing. And I will bless those who bless you and curse him who curses you. In you, all the families of the earth will be blessed." Genesis 12:2,3

The best way to find peace is to find common ground. If all three major Abrahamic religions can agree on these statements then that is a good start. But everyone has missed the point, God said he would bless all those who blessed Abraham, and there would be a time when all of the families of the earth would be blessed. How? The promised seed that would bring peace as the rightful King of the Jews. (For once let's not argue about who that king is or is not) The question becomes, who is a Jew that would benefit from that King? Remember that the promise to Abraham was that "all of the families of the world" would be blessed.

"Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists." The Family of Imran 3.67

The descendants of Abraham are Jews, but it's a true statement to say that Abraham himself was not a Jew. (I think of it as a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square type of an argument) And certainly he was not a Christian and didn't practice Islam, he had never heard of either Jesus or Muhammad. But the Koran seems to make a connection that the Apostle Paul also made.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." The Cow 2.62

"...glory and honer and peace for everyone who works what is good for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. For the hearers of the law are not just before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous before God. For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused...Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not?...For he is not a Jew who is on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God. What then is the superiority of the Jew, or what is the benefit of the circumcision? A great deal in every way. First of all, because they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God...What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charges that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin...is he God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes, of people of the nations also." Romans 2:10-15, 25, 26, 28, 29; 3:1, 2, 9, 29

Again, remember the promise to the Jews was that through them all of the families of the earth will be blessed and also all who bless Abraham would be blessed. The land belongs to both the fleshly Jew and to Jews of the heart as well. It does not matter what you call yourself, all who do what is good in the eyes of God are in fact Jews. That doesn't mean that the fleshly Jews should be pushed out, they are there now, but others who wish to benefit from having a nation should be allowed to join right in along side them. Even if Israel stretches from Egypt to the river Euphrates if it is full of people of all Abrahamic faiths, then they should worship the God of Abraham in the way that they choose. In this way "All who bless Abraham will be blessed." It's all about perception, what are borders anyway? Where does one nation start and another begin, what blade of grass, what tree branch, what spec of dust creates division? Of course I can see reasons that some Jews, Christians, and Muslims would like to argue against this type of thinking, but I believe that many from all three groups would find truth in it as well.

I shared the basic principles of this argument to a Persian woman that teaches English in Iran a few months ago and she told me she agreed with it so much that she sent it to other people she knew. She also told me that I needed to spread it around, I don't really know who to write it to or where I should put it, so I decided to write it here. (Just for the record I'm a Christian) Peace!




posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by The_Phantom
 


Personally, I don't believe that God gave that land to the Jews. Did you ever play the game "telephone"? It's where children sit in a row, and child A whispers a sentence to Child B, Child B repeats sentence to child C...and so on. The last child to recieve the message recites it out loud to compare with Child As original message. Then everybody gets a good laugh because it's so screwed up. My point is, stories are passed down by word of mouth. Back then, very, very few had the skills to even write. Not to mention how many times its been translated.

It's foolish to base foreign policy on legends, especially when it involves my son being sent to fight a war on the other side of the world, all because Israel's legends and paranoia. .
edit on 23-12-2010 by Abbby because: forgot somethin



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:57 PM
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reply to post by Abbby
 


I say this with all due respect, but it doesn't really matter what you believe in or do not believe in when it comes to fixing the problem. The fact is that billions of people do believe in God and the conflicts in the Middle East are based on the disagreements of how to worship the God of Abraham. Wouldn't you agree? Has anybody come up with a political solution that works and brings peace?
edit on 23-12-2010 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 02:51 AM
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And billions of people - including the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians - know that just because their imaginary buddy in the sky is supposed to have said something, that doesn't actually make it so.

This is a legal problem. Wholly and totally. The religion thing is an obfuscation, a trap. The goal of anyone claiming this is a religions issue is to try to mire down rational argument in a quagmire of theology.

In essence, the religionists' aim is to throw out and stall any argument that might see a legal resolution, by trying to force the issue as an argument that has no proofs, no precedents, no witnesses, and no resolution.

Of course, it's usually the powerful who pull this - The Palestinians are pretty much 100% in agreement that this is a legal issue, while it's the Israelis who mumble nothings about their variety of invisible sky unicorn. The powerful get to stall and cloud the issue with nonsense, thus preventing any resolution - since at this point, any resolution at all is bound to give more to the less-powerful than the powerful want them to have.

I.e., anything.



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


You think Hamas and Hezbollah are just political groups and not religious ones? Hezbollah means, "Party of God"

But this argument is not about God existing or not, it is about presenting a solution to a very real problem in the world, that is based around a "holy land" that both Jews and Muslims want to control. The Islamic Republic of Iran knows exactly why they fund these groups to fight against the Jews. We can let them continue to duke it out, and they will. Or we can try to find a solution. I ask again, do you know of a political solution that works and will bring peace? If you come up with one then use it, no need to discuss religion at all. I sincerely hope that you find one. I wonder if you would ignore a religious solution just because it is religious? Would you really throw away peace just because it doesn't fall in line with Atheism?



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by The_Phantom
 


the arguments more of over fundimental religous nut cases killing each other because they believe their God said so
or as you said because their God Gave them that Land

people with Brains will dismiss this rubbish and use Facts and not fairytales
Israel/palestine belongs to the Natural people of that area (Jews, Muslims, Christians who were on that land way before the europeans, africans, and so forth migrated there to create their so called jewish country by the rights of santa i mean God)



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 08:12 AM
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reply to post by illusive man
 


They do kill each other because they believe they have a God given right to the land, the fact that they do this is not a fairy tale it is a very real thing...the point of my argument is that the only solution is to make it clear that no matter what religion you are in, God wants you to share the land. I don't know how many times I am going to have to say this, it does not matter if you believe that God exists or not, the conflict exists because the people in that region thinks he does.
edit on 24-12-2010 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 12:34 PM
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in my opinion its a palestinian land. they were first and i dont think that the lord gave the jews the land. the jews took it because the fight between christ and almahdi vs al-dajjal (anti-christ) will be there in palestine (acorrding to the prophet muhammed's ''pbuh'' hadiths)



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


STAR!

You're on a roll these days...

Enough said.



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by The_Phantom
 


heres a political solution; stop all aid to israel, particularly the 3 billion $ the US gives them annually. give it to the palistinians maybe. execute the many UN resolutions against israel. try the israeli war criminals at the hague. ban the US right to veto stuff against israel. cease trade with israel until they behave themselves. push the borders back to 1967 immediately. let the ashkenazis/kazars/nazi emulators know what real suffering is.



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 06:03 PM
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I'm not sure you guys are reading my OP, there is no reason for any more fighting from Jews, Christians or Muslims. They can all live there together without anymore conflict. Just make them all citizens of the same country, it's a simple solution with no conflict or chance of it in the future, no short term solutions. No taking sides, doing that will eventually lead to more conflict, but if you blur the lines and put everybody on the same side, there simply is no other side to fight against, but the people we are talking about are very religious and the only way to put them on the same side is to prove that they are all the same religion.

I know the thing I'm about to say will cause some people to get angry, but I'm only going to say it because it needs to be said, it's how I know this is all about religion. There is no way, not even a chance that most Christians would ever be willing to take Israel back from the Jews and give it to Muslims. Don't get mad at me, it is what it is. I'm not debating that fact, it's not why I'm here, I'm just telling the truth. And they won't do that for the same reason they first took it away from Muslims and gave it to the Jews. For the same reason that Christians did the same thing during the Crusades. As long as religion exists your solution, right or wrong, I'm not saying your solution is wrong, I'm just saying don't expect it to happen. If you got rid of religion, then maybe you could take up your political solution, until then, the most that will come from it is a few stars from your friends on ATS.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by The_Phantom
You think Hamas and Hezbollah are just political groups and not religious ones? Hezbollah means, "Party of God"


And North Korea calls itself the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea." Basically, you can call yourself whatever the hell you want. It's what they actually do that defines them. Hamas and Hezbollah are political organizations that occasionally teabag a Koran, to put it crudely. They can claim "we do this for god!" all they want - the other sides (Israeli Jews and American christians) do the same thing. And what all of them are saying is "this is what I want, and saying god wants it is way easier than making a logical argument"


But this argument is not about God existing or not, it is about presenting a solution to a very real problem in the world, that is based around a "holy land" that both Jews and Muslims want to control.


Again, the "holy land" garbage is an obfuscation. It's just land, and that's enough. This whole seventy year dog fight is between two groups of people who want to own the land in question. They want to own it so they can live there, grow crops there, build businesses there, and basically do everything that people do with land. "Holy" has not one thing to do with it. If there were no mosques, no temples, no tombs or sacred whatevers, they would still be having this fight.


The Islamic Republic of Iran knows exactly why they fund these groups to fight against the Jews.


I'm sure they do. Question is, do you know? I'll spare you the history lesson and just give you the conclusion. Israel and Iran are really the sole regional powers in the Middle East. They are both vying for dominance. And... that's it. Really, truly, that's the bottom line. Has squat to do with Muslims vs. Jews, and everything to do with determining who gets to be the big dog.


We can let them continue to duke it out, and they will. Or we can try to find a solution.


Most discussion of peace in Israel / Palestine consists of dismissing and ignoring all prospects for peace. Andthe reasons for these dismissals always end up back at the "god said so" point - again, basically people wanting to make demands without any logic to it.


I ask again, do you know of a political solution that works and will bring peace? If you come up with one then use it, no need to discuss religion at all. I sincerely hope that you find one.


Abandon the two-state solution

I'm sure a reader just fainted, 'cause that is absolutely the most taboo phrase you can use in this subject. The two-state solution is a sacred cow, something that too many parties have sunk too much time and money into, to just abandon, right? Well, how's that two-state solution looking? How long has it been? And they're just now thinking it might maybe get somewhere?

It won't. It will fall apart in negotiations, because the Israelis want the state of Israel, and two Arab reservations, while the Palestinians want to viable states. The Israeli desire is one that is guaranteed to result in more violence, while the Palestinian side is basically drinking bong water on this one - there is no way to make a viable Palestinian state out of this mess.

However, the way the demographics are working out, Israel will be an Arab-majority state in the rather near future. Most of those Arabs will be Palestinians. What happens then? Barring some nasty, vile things being done by Israel, these people are going to vote. And Arab parties are going to start winning. And there's very honestly no telling what will happen once the pendulum swings.

So my solution would be to meet that future, but nip any crises it causes in the bud. Single-state solution. Israel, Gaza, the west bank, unified into one nation, under a constitution that guarantees political and legal equality regardless of race, religion, or former national status. it would get off to a rocky start, but this formula has been repeated successfully, far too often, for me to really think that it would collapse the way the two-state silliness has.

One way or another, we're going to have a single Arab-majority state there. It'd be better to get it done with, with legal protectiosn for everyone, than to see what chaos unfolds without those safeguards.


I wonder if you would ignore a religious solution just because it is religious? Would you really throw away peace just because it doesn't fall in line with Atheism?


No, I throw it away because for seventy years people have been trying to divine god's will and apply it to this fiasco, and the only net effect is that there have been no net effects. Your idea is not new or novel or unique. People have been pumping it for decades now, and it simply doesn't work. THAT is why I throw it away.
edit on 26-12-2010 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


You clearly have no idea why the Islamic Republic of Iran funds them. First of all read the original Hezbollah Manifesto and you will see they don't "tea bag" the Koran as you put it, Islam is a fundamental part of who they are, just like it is in Iran. Here are some excerpts from it:

"We are often asked: Who are we, the Hizballah, and what is our identity? We are the sons
of the umma (Muslim community) - the party of God (Hizb Allah) the vanguard of which
was made victorious by God in Iran.

"By virtue of the above, we do not constitute an organized and closed party in Lebanon.
nor are we a tight political cadre. We are an umma linked to the Muslims of the whole
world by the solid doctrinal and religious connection of Islam, whose message God
wanted to be fulfilled by the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., Muhammad. This is why whatever
touches or strikes the Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Philippines and elsewhere
reverberates throughout the whole Muslim umma of which we are an integral part."

"As for our culture, it is based on the Holy Koran, the Sunna and the legal rulings of the
faqih who is our source of imitation (marja' al-taqlid). Our culture is crystal clear. It is
not complicated and is accessible to all."

"No one can imagine the importance of our military potential as our military apparatus is
not separate from our overall social fabric. Each of us is a fighting soldier. And when it
becomes necessary to carry out the Holy War"

"We declare openly and loudly that we are an umma which fears God only and is by no
means ready to tolerate injustice, aggression and humiliation. America, its Atlantic Pact
allies, and the Zionist entity in the holy land of Palestine, attacked us and continue to do
so without respite"


You don't seem to understand that the people involved all believe in God and that they are fighting over "Holy Land" They all view it that way, your view of it not being holy land doesn't change the fact that they kill each other over HOLY LAND. Now view how Iran is set up as a nation, if you know anything about Islam then you will know what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad meant when he gave a speech at the UN when he call for the "mighty Lord" to "hasten the emergence" of Imam Mahdi, a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhammad. It then becomes absolutely clear why a Theocracy based on Islam would support a clearly religious group like Hezbollah. Here, this is how Iran works, read it all:

www.cfr.org...


edit on 27-12-2010 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by The_Phantom
You clearly have no idea why the Islamic Republic of Iran funds them. First of all read the original Hezbollah Manifesto and you will see they don't "tea bag" the Koran as you put it, Islam is a fundamental part of who they are, just like it is in Iran. Here are some excerpts from it:


Awesome. However, allow me to reiterate; they can say whatever they like, but the truth is exposed in actions. Hizbollah is a secular political party / paramilitary organization that gives lip service to religion. It is backed by Iran because it opposes Israel, because Israel is Iran's main regional competition for hegemony.


You don't seem to understand that the people involved all believe in God and that they are fighting over "Holy Land" They all view it that way, your view of it not being holy land doesn't change the fact that they kill each other over HOLY LAND.


Again, the "holy" is just an obfuscation. If these people were hardcore atheists who scoffed at the notion of a god, they would still be fighting over this land. They're killing each other over who controls what parcels of land. religion is just something they use to rally the troops and cover their own asses. It's absolutely the same as the situation in Northern Ireland was. Two groups fighting and killing over who controlled what turf, all with a thin whitewash of religion.


Now view how Iran is set up as a nation, if you know anything about Islam then you will know what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad meant when he gave a speech at the UN when he call for the "mighty Lord" to "hasten the emergence" of Imam Mahdi, a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhammad. It then becomes absolutely clear why a Theocracy based on Islam would support a clearly religious group like Hezbollah. Here, this is how Iran works, read it all:

www.cfr.org...


edit on 27-12-2010 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)


You're stretching. Ahmedinejad invoked the return of the Hidden Imam, which is a key feature of twelver Shi'a, the dominant school of shiism in Iran. So what? How many Christians have stood behind that same podium and spoken about Jesus, who's supposed immediate return is central to christian theology? Ahmedinejad is either a religious man, or is playing one on TV.

And thank you, I'm quite aware of how Iran is set up. It's a Theocracy, but it still engages in state and international politics, most of which takes form through a fully secular lens. Back when the Revolution was new, and Khomeini was calling all the shots, maybe religion had a heavy hand in Iranian state policy. These days however, it's all about gaining Iranian regional supremacy through economic aid, political influence, and in some cases, proxy military action, as in Lebanon, Iraq, and Turkey.

Pointing out that Iran is structured as a Theocracy doesn't actually make it have a particularly religious approach to the affairs of state, and it certainly doesn't change the blatant fact that the Israel / Palestine conflict is a simple turf war, with both sides grasping whatever straws they think will excuse their own killings.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 09:25 PM
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So your argument remains, ‘it doesn’t matter that all of the people involved claim that it’s about religion, it’s not, because a lot of politicians use religion to advance their goals so it’s not about religion.’ And you stand by that even though the Jews believe It is their land according to their religion, Christian Conservatives support it because they believe the same thing and they want Israel to be a thorn in the side of the Islamic nations to prevent the spread of Sharia law, and the Muslims involved declare a holy war and fight for the holy land in the name of Allah. So…I guess they all don’t know what they are talking about. But, let’s talk about the nature of authority in general, what power do politicians really have? What can a politician do? They can only use preexisting ideas to motivate the people, but it is people that act on those ideas if they believe in them. It is people that take what they believe was given to them by Yahweh, it’s people that strap bombs to their chest in the name of Allah, that drop bombs from the sky or shoot rockets from the ground for the what they all believe is Holy Land. It’s not just any other land to the people involved, to many people it is special, you may not think it is, and billions of others may not, but billions do think so, and the people involved in the conflict all think so. When these people fight each other in the name of God that’s not lip service to a religion, that is action based on a belief in God. Or do you believe that when a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows himself up in the name of Allah that is lip service to religion? Do you believe that when a Jew says God wants them to have the land and then takes it in the name of God that is lip service? It’s not the politicians that do these things it’s religious people that do them. Do the politicians believe in what they are saying? I don’t know, that’s a legitimate argument that may not. Maybe they are just paying lip service so that the people will hear them, most do, but it doesn’t really matter if they are or not, it’s the people that believe in religion and do act on it that carry on the conflict, there is simply no getting around that fact. Religion is the source of the conflict, from politicians or otherwise, it is at the heart of the issue. This power struggle between the religions existed before any modern politicians were born, they have seen empires rise and fall. When borders change and nations crumble this religious power struggle will still exist, it will continue to outlive nations, that is unless perception changes.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 09:51 PM
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Israeli–Palestinian
NO one is looking out for nor helping the Palestinian people. If they get whatever land they want it would take decades to become a normal nation. When that happens, another middle east country would move in and take them over,
I suggest their PEOPLE request to become part of Israel. I believe the Israeli's would provide national protection, cival laws and the infrastructure needed to become a productive people; living in harmony with others regardless of race, creed or color. Obviously nothing else is working. Give them a life.



posted on Dec, 29 2010 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by The_Phantom
So your argument remains, ‘it doesn’t matter that all of the people involved claim that it’s about religion, it’s not, because a lot of politicians use religion to advance their goals so it’s not about religion.’


Some. By no means all. And those some are in fact wrong. Read up on the history of warfare. Through history, all sides of a conflict have claimed god was on their side. This does not actually make these "holy wars." Most, as is the case with Israel and Palestine, are fought over territory. And that fight would be happening with or without religion in the equation.


And you stand by that even though the Jews believe It is their land according to their religion,


Some Jews, according to some interpretations of Judaism.


Christian Conservatives support it because they believe the same thing and they want Israel to be a thorn in the side of the Islamic nations to prevent the spread of Sharia law, and the Muslims involved declare a holy war and fight for the holy land in the name of Allah.


Let me guess - this is your particular dog in this fight, right?


So…I guess they all don’t know what they are talking about.


That's absolutely correct. They're clueless.


But, let’s talk about the nature of authority in general, what power do politicians really have? What can a politician do? They can only use preexisting ideas to motivate the people, but it is people that act on those ideas if they believe in them.


Ever heard of "coercion"? Do you think the people of North Korea participate in Arirang because they think it's a fantastic idea, or because a collection of well-paid, well-armed men will torture and kill them if they do not participate?

How about "propaganda?" The Czechs living beside and greeting their Jewish neighbors in 1937 were the same ones who ratted them out and were turning them over to the Germans in 1941. Was this because the Czech people of Prague had all along hated and loathed their neighbors, or because the Nazis made a good combination of propaganda - telling the people of Prague what a plague the Jews were - and coercion - imprisonment for anyone who harbored Jews?

Politicians are in a great position to disseminate lies as truth and disguise force as volunteerism.


It is people that take what they believe was given to them by Yahweh, it’s people that strap bombs to their chest in the name of Allah, that drop bombs from the sky or shoot rockets from the ground for the what they all believe is Holy Land.


And such people are beyond any sort of reconciliation with one another. If you're that deep in your cups, there's not a speck of rationality that can get into your skull. So while such people exist, they are, in fact, non-entities as far as seeking peace goes, because they have dedicated their lives to opposing any such thing. The target audience must be the rational people who recognize the conflict for what it is.


It’s not just any other land to the people involved, to many people it is special, you may not think it is, and billions of others may not, but billions do think so, and the people involved in the conflict all think so.[/wuote]

As your mother might say, if a billion people jumped off a cliff, would you jump with them?

And again, not all people involved think this way. The Israeli government - with a few individual exceptions - do not see it in this light. The Palestinian Authority and its comprising parties do not see it in religious terms - again, with individual exceptions. In fact the involved group MOST prone to seeing this in religious terms is the United States. The Israelis and Palestinians want somewhere safe to live - the US wants Jesus to come back and kill all the Jews.


When these people fight each other in the name of God that’s not lip service to a religion, that is action based on a belief in God. Or do you believe that when a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows himself up in the name of Allah that is lip service to religion? Do you believe that when a Jew says God wants them to have the land and then takes it in the name of God that is lip service?


Considering that all the religions involved strongly condemn murder, suicide, and theft? Yeah, it pretty much looks like a shining example of "I'm going to do what I want to do and then claim god told me to do it"


It’s not the politicians that do these things it’s religious people that do them. Do the politicians believe in what they are saying? I don’t know, that’s a legitimate argument that may not. Maybe they are just paying lip service so that the people will hear them, most do, but it doesn’t really matter if they are or not, it’s the people that believe in religion and do act on it that carry on the conflict, there is simply no getting around that fact.


I feel I've covered the role of propaganda and coercion well enough already.


Religion is the source of the conflict, from politicians or otherwise, it is at the heart of the issue.



Sigh.

No. The source of the conflict is a UN resolution, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine. It was this resolution that partitioned the Palestinian Mandate into an Arab state and a Jewish state. I could get into the nitty-gritty of how various parties responded to this resolution and why they did so, but it would be rather pedantic and I can tell you're not interested in historical facts.

Basically, to the Palestinian perception, the UN chunked up what was their territory and handed large parcels of it to foreigners. To Israeli perceptions, the Jewish immigrants wanted a safe place to live, and the Arabs should have been more neighborly. I'll skip over arguing who's right or wrong, but that's the crux of it.

This is a colonial-era land dispute. There's another one almost just like it between India and Pakistan, and between Northern and Southern Sudan. The British sure got a lot of mileage out of this tactic.


This power struggle between the religions existed before any modern politicians were born,


Except this isn't a religious struggle. You don't see Jews and Muslims going at it in Detroit, or Hamburg, or Sydney. This is a territorial struggle between native Arabs and their descendants, and immigrant Europeans and their descendants.


they have seen empires rise and fall. When borders change and nations crumble this religious power struggle will still exist, it will continue to outlive nations, that is unless perception changes.


If you hold this to be true then your initial idea is pretty obviously a grand waste of time, which leaves us with my solution. Bypass the religious horse-hockey and get right to the political and territorial meat that is the actual problem here.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 07:58 AM
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I just showed you that Hezbollah called it a holy war and holy land and it is very clear that Zionist call it holy land, and Conservative Christians view it the same way. Your missing the point of why the UN gave them that chunk of land, they could have given them land anywhere, they gave them that land, not because they had been their recently they hadn't lived there in a thousand years, but they were given that land because according to religious belief it was their God given home. A political decision based on a preexisting religious ideas. The reason I say conservative Christians are the biggest supporters of Israel is because I have watched Fox News in the past. I bet they can't go one day without praising Israel. Seriously if you want to see the religious motivations for it just watch Hannity or Glenn Beck. If you want to see why you are wrong, that it is not simply politicians that push the idea, but their entire social and religious makeup on both sides that push the violence then start with this video:



But even if it was just the politicians that push it as a religious conflict onto the people it is still a religious conflict. Propaganda is useless without a subject. The subject for this conflict is religion. Either way it is still religion that is the problem and source of violence. And its the people believe in God that carries the violence on.

I'm not saying that any of the people that view it like this have the right views, I'm just saying it is what they believe.

I also wanted to say that I agree with sunfrat on what the solution is. My argument only is based how to make that happen.


edit on 30-12-2010 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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You don't eat pigs,
We don't eat pigs,
It seems it's been that way forever

So if you don't eat pigs,
And we don't eat pigs,
Why not, not eat pigs together?


Tim Minchin - "Peace Anthem For Palestine"

www.youtube.com...


Peace



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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This is a very good thread with a very good point imo.

It is very much a problem to do with religion. It doesn't matter if people are using religion to justify certain means, the religion is the underlying problem.

Israel will never give up what they consider to be rightfully theirs. Palestinians will not give up what they believe to be theirs. Jerualem is a sacred place for both religions, both religions are very strong willed...therefore it is going to take alot of understanding and forgiveness to make any peace deal worthy and sustainable.

I personally think the two state solution is the only way forward. But it is totally flawed with the fact that Gaza and the West bank are on opposite sides of Israel. The Palestinians need there own enclosed bit of land and the Israeli's need their own bit of land (also need free access to important parts of Jerusalem for each religion). Too much has gone on for there to be any trust for them to live together. Israel will definately take the risk of letting them roam freely around Israel with the suicide bombings that happened in the 90's.

There is alot of hatred to Israel in ATS I can see. But I like to put my self into both sides and think about how both sides feel. I feel for the Palestinians because land was handed over to others when they had been living there for so long. They were forced out and had some atrocious things done to them which can never be forgotton.

But with the wall put up by Israel and the subsequent blockade of Gaza I think of the Israeli's and what would another country do if they went through the same things as Israel? If any other country had the power to stop a terrorist organisation that has said it wants to see the destruction of Israel, then wouldn't they? if they were to just let Hamas roam in and out and do whatever they want, then it puts every Israeli life at risk.

On the bus bombings etc and the building of the wall In Israel. Here in London we had one day and about 50 or so people die in 7/7. Also with America with 9/11 (where there was a great loss of life). If the bombings in London happened every week for a sustained period of time and we knew that 100% of the people carrying out the bombings were of Pakistani origin and lived in a certain area in Leeds (this is just an example), then I am positive the British Government would put borders up/check points etc and extra surveilance going in and out of that area to protect the British people.

I think aswell that they aren't just making the Palestinians suffer for the hell of it (which it seems alot of people on ATS seem to think?). I do think they are doing it all to protect their people and they have the power to do it. I don't necessarily agree with the lengths they have gone to to do it, but I also can't see another way to protect themselves other than what they are doing?

So I can see the situation from Israeli's point of view aswell. It is only when people stop the hatred and wanting to hurt one another and wanting revenge etc that this will ever be solved. But with the stubboness of both sets involved, I for one do not think that will happen, definately not in my lifetime.

A tolerance and a forgiveness needs to come from both sides, the foregiveness more from the Palestinians and I am sure they do not have that in them to give.

It is very sad, but I do think people need to look into the situation more objectively and stop stiring hatred. If you don't agree with what Israel has done, well suggest an alternative? try and make a difference. If what Israel is doing is so wrong (which I am not saying it is or isn't) then suggest a way that Israel can stop what they are doing and help the Palestinians, while insuring that Israeli people are going to be safe. I can't think of a way? can you? until someone does, then it is never going to end.



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