Jesus (Yeshua) was a Jew, who died for a purpose..

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I love any thread that gives me the chance to EMBARASS myself with Christ.

Very interesting statement, says so much about you.

...now PROVE IT!

You know way to little about Judaism to be able to say "yeshua was a Jew". So was Shabtai Tzvi and Jacob frank. They had one thing in common these 3 people. They were heretics.

Seriously, calling Jesus a rabbi - yes, maybe at one point he was a Rabbi, but he sort of lost that title when he decided to diverge from the tradition of Torah that his fathers had worked very hard to maintain in the face of growing imperialistic opposition from the greco-romans. He enabled them, which is why i believe without a shadow of a doubt that christianity was a clever creation of the roman aristocracy to displace Judaism.

In anycase, christianity has served it purpose. The knowledge of the bible and jewish morality has spread across the world. The west can thank the Jews for that - and not the morally bankrupt hellenistic cultures whos innate instability resulted in a synthesis between its greek pagan views and Judaism (that is, it needed to balance itself with Judaism.)

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Tradition you and I have been round and round. This is conspiracy site? Ok I give you that. What forum is the man in though pard? Are you trying to d-rail?

edit on 23-12-2010 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Nah, I thought it odd to hammer out a thread like this and only after a handful of replies find himself dismayed to not receive his expected stars and flags. It has the appearance of simply exploiting a popular religious belief for whatever gain can be had from this site's rewards.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Tradition you and I have been round and round. This is conspiracy site? Ok I give you that. What forum is the man in though pard? Are you trying to d-rail?

edit on 23-12-2010 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Shuyler I think I posted a pretty fair answer to that for you.

edit on 23-12-2010 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

we are in the "Conspiracies in Religion" forum.

and whilst i read, and reread the OPs post, i am still having a hard time deciphering just what the inherent message to it is... even though there was a passage about simplicity.

as well, whilst i appreciate the OPs zeal (seems inspired by the holy spirit itself) i feel like i need a more coherent talking point, else, as Traditional Drummer said, this is simply a "Jesus is Love" thread...

which may be true, but, being a conspiracy website, then even that topic is open for discussion.

yes? no?

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I admit that is a bit needy even though the denial. Ok you have a point my respected nemisis.

Newageman

As for your challenge I thought I was already off to at least a fair start?

No, it was just an observation, as was the fact that your post (snide remark included) imediately garnered some stars.

I've been around the block here also, I know the ah vibe, intentionality, um, I don't know how to describe it, the snarkiness, and it's already plain as day in this thread, it is utterly predictable. Everyone's heart is apparent, little beknownst to them, the activity is apparent, self evident.

I wasn't fishing for stars for me, but simply wondering why there were none, that's all.

We'll probably be utterly dismayed at what this thread will become, one way or another, that's for sure.

You are saying you know because you know. That makes no sense. I'm not ignorant of the subject. I've been to Golgotha. I've seen the tomb in the garden of Joseph of Arimathea (There are competing sites, but we'll let that go.) I've been to the River Jordan, seen the Second Temple, visited Bethleham, Nazareth, and Capernum. I've seen Peter's house (There is little doubt on this one: They nailed it.) I've stood on the Mount of Olives and looked over Jerusalem. I've read the books, like Meier's 4 volume "A Marginal Jew." I've read the gospels many times. I know what "Q" is. I would venture to claim that I know more about Christianity than your garden variety Christian.

But none of this compels me to "believe" in the way you believe. So I have always been very curious about WHY people believe so deeply in this. I'm sorry to say this and, once again, I'm not trying to be obtuse or difficult, but your words aren't answering the question. It's like you are talking to someone else and using a different language altogether. You may as well be speaking in tongues. To me there is a complete and utter disconnect between my simple question of, "How do you know all this is true?" and the answer you give.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
No, it was just an observation, as was the fact that your post (snide remark included) imediately garnered some stars.

I've been around the block here also, I know the ah vibe, intentionality, um, I don't know how to describe it, the snarkiness, and it's already plain as day in this thread, it is utterly predictable. Everyone's heart is apparent, little beknownst to them, the activity is apparent, self evident.

I wasn't fishing for stars for me, but simply wondering why there were none, that's all.

We'll probably be utterly dismayed at what this thread will become, one way or another, that's for sure.

Well that sounds legite No reason to go any further with it as that would be distrust unfounded.

reply to post by schuyler


It's your frame of reference, that's the problem here.

I'll be typing, over the coming days, an introduction to the Bhagavad Gita, which I will invite you to read.

It's the Western mind, the strange materialist monist separative worldview, one I used to have, which only makes it seem like we're talking from two totally different places in two different dialects, but I'll admit that the frame I was offering is very different.

Have some patience please and try not to be too demanding, if you could.

I thought I made it apparent. Give me some time, and I'll come back and post some more nonsense that your mind will simply NOT understand, unless you begin to try on some new frames, that's all I can say right now. Sorry.

reply to post by schuyler


Damn you been to those places. That's quite alot of getting around. What were your thoughts standing amoungst all that ancient history? I mean I'm truly interested because I will never have that chance.

Did you read my answer to your question? Is it Madam?

Mythos
I agree the message is a bit misconstrued.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by schuyler

 

Damn you been to those places. That's quite alot of getting arond. What were thoughts standing amoungst all that ancient history? I mean I'm truly interested because I will never have that chance.

Did you read my answer to your question? Is it Madam?

edit on 23-12-2010 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

It was awesome, truly. I admit that the tomb got to me. I could easily believe that was the one. No matter what you believe, though, THAT is one of the key places that has defined Western Civilization. Here I was sailing on the Sea of Gallile. I touched the Western Wall. I climbed in catacombs beneath the Second Temple. I was also in Jordan and Egypt following the trail of Moses through the Sianai desert. I could go on.

No, didn't see your answer. I'll go back and look. Don't think you can't go. It's possible for you. Running short tonight....

reply to post by dontreally


I think that's an excellent reply even with the conviction.

Shuyler

That gives me chills to read that the tomb got to you. Awesome.

reply to post by dontreally

If it really happened (the cross) and few are attempting to say (but they will now!) that there was no Jesus, and no crucifixion - then it's an issue of righteousness, and of the two sides of the tree of life, of a severe justice on the one hand, and a tender mercy, on the other, a frame, and yes, something that was emergent from the Jewish frame of reference, fully "grokked" or understood and integrated by Jesus.
In what way precisely was Jesus in your view, a heretic, and why does he deserve condemnation, I don't undertand that part, but I'm sure you'll be more than willing to clarify, however much it will pain me as a Christian person, for whom Jesus is a model of authentic leadership, civility, and love.

reply to post by schuyler


You can go anywhere in Jerusalem, but the most holy place.

If a Jewish temple stood there, all peoples would be allowed to ascend and offer their prayers.

But the muslims and the Waqf in Jerusalem make it virtually impossible for non muslims to step foot on the temple mount. and if you do manage to get on the mount, there are strict rules to adhere to: NO PRAYING.

Literally, if youre caught praying - and youre not muslim, your removed by security guards. This is a situation of course that only affects religious Jews.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Please don't get me wrong on any of this my friend. I am trying to have your back as I'm sure you know why some one should.

The Woman at the Well

4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.

7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Please don't get me wrong on any of this my friend. I am trying to have your back as I'm sure you know why some one should.

By your avatar, you look powerful! I'm glad you're there. Thanks!

Seriously, it's ok, I do what I can, just wanted to start the thread, and saying a few things, and then allow whatever will be to be.

No worries, it's all good.

It's not about "me" at all, so I'm fine, at least I think I am..

But thanks anyway, the sentiment doesn't go without appreciation.

Your intent does sound appealing, start with answer given for the greatest commandment and try not to get hung up on the details.

Luke 10.27 Keeps it simple.

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

All the other commandments should follow suit. The problem is that One God gets interpreted from so many different frames of reference. I'm not sure everybody is up to being comfortable in a conflicted multiverse.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by schuyler

 

It's your frame of reference, that's the problem here. I thought I made it apparent. Give me some time, and I'll come back and post some more nonsense that your mind will simply NOT understand, unless you begin to try on some new frames, that's all I can say right now. Sorry.

Hey. I've tried to be really upfront with you, not call names, not be derisive or scornful, and then you come up with this. It kind of pisses me off, to be honest. Here's where I part company. Your frame of reference is not in any way superior to mine. I do not accept the idea that you have some deep spiritual understanding or some greater intellectual understanding and I do not. Statements such as "I thought I made it apparent" smack of an undeserved elitism. MY frame of reference is NOT the problem here. The whole idea of a "frame of reference" is just about meaningless. Basically you appear to be saying if I move up to your frame of reference and accept your superior level of understanding then I will be more enlightened and therefore believe as you do. I believe that the onus is upon you to make yourself coherent.

You are not being coherent. I won't be waiting at your feet for further enlightenment.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that I can see why you'd say that, forgive me.

I'll need time to reflect, look back on what I wrote, what you would have read and considered, and then see how to fill any gaps in the communication, and I'm willing to accept whatever are mine.

Again, sorry for getting a little snarky there, you'll have to forgive me with what we go through here sometimes, relative to the atheists, I ask you to see it also from my shoes, since it seemed demanding, and I felt misunderstood.

I'll try harder. Didn't mean to come off being an a$$, but I wasn't really saying what you just had me saying there either.