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Science as Religion

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posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 06:21 PM
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I dont think most people really associate the two, but at its core, its listening to what "they" tell you is the "Truth" of all that is. I am wondering how others feel about this.

This is based in the idea that any general activity in which humans partake, they introduce elements of greed, politics, control, and various other things. Ideally, science is the attempt to understand what is already happening all around us. But, it is frequently soiled by scientists who give in to pride, corporations who want specific results and the money to get them, and the blind faith of the masses that the "official" truth is done in the name of true science. Given the "important" nature of many claims of different scientists and the advent of mass information dissemination, admitting one is wrong "in the name of true science" has morphed into an entirely different beast.

In science, it is ideally unerring. This leads to a behavior by those involved where there is little to no room for interpretation, and that bleeds down into the masses. To those of us who do not have the equipment to run some of the spectacular tests that are done, we have to take it on faith that everything was done true to form. We also take on faith that no numbers or data was fabricated, that the results should be interpreted in a certain way, and that they are true period. If we were not there, we have to also take it on faith that the experiment was even performed in the first place.

But, what makes us so trust these "powers that be" in this one area, and not others?

These same powers (humans) that have used everything from religion to mass media to shape the world (to what extent ill leave up to you
). We have entered an incredible age of information where we are learning so much about this "place" we are lucky enough to take part, and be alive in. But i see it as the "teenage years" of science. It has been this flood of information and discovery, and we have grown so much in our knowledge that we feel we have rock solid footing on all that we know. "We know just enough to be dangerous." What happens to us when we experience things like that?

In the end, this is all limited to human perspective, and there is simply no way around that. Science is simply a human representation and understanding of what is already going on around us. We must never stop questioning, even ourselves, and definitely not the powers that be. Given our limited human perspective, we will never know everything. And that just means we always, always have more to learn (which is exciting!).

What has also happened though, is a huge disconnect from the general population and the technology and science that is currently commonplace. This presents an opportunity, should it be taken, to shape the worlds perception from a standpoint they do not understand, dont have the equipment to question, and from an unerring source with zero room for interpretation. Anything that disagrees with "current science" is generally looked upon as not possible and ignorant, even though the very nature of science proposes we do not know everything. This starts to sound familiar to me... Except, if science is used to control the masses as religion was, i feel it will have much more dire consequences. People in general have begun to view science and mathematics as the truth itself, instead of a human representation of the world around us. I think this starts to lead into some dangerous territory, because who is defining what science and mathematics tells us? Arthur C. Clarke said "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." And i feel there is a possibility we are witnessing this very thing before our eyes. Many have begun to throw an air of mysticism around the products of science, and many certainly have zero concept of the inner workings of even common things they use every day.

Ideally, science would lead to nothing but good things. By performing science, we actively admit we dont know, and thats a fantastic thing! But, given the funding and scale of most widely-accepted scientific operations, what kind of "ideals" do people think are involved? How much money is actually involved in the industry, and how does that compare to others?

Well, as i am looking above here, i have already written a wall of text, so ill stop there. hopefully there will be more discussion
To sum up my current thoughts on the matter, Science is good, but the human element in science must always be doubted.

What are your thoughts?




posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by sinohptik
 
sinohptik,

Science is good and great as long as the object doesn't get into disproving creation and the Great Creator. I have listened to Jim Mc'Canney on science and he makes more sense than most.

Yes the earth is more than 6,000 yrs old and if folks would read the scripture more carefully they would understand that. It was made visible at the time man was to inhabit it and made a livable place. To begin with it was void and without form and may had been in existence from all eternity.

The trouble lies with men wanting to get above and deny Yahshua the great Creator. Yes it was the Redeemer who did all of creation and also the hosts of men and angels. Col. 1:16-18 and Isa. 44:6.

True science is very good but it has to stay away from building on therory.

We have the greatest source of the Truth, His Word. It is the source of Wisdom and understanding. It is the sure foundation.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


Thank you for your post truth, however, thats not quite what i was getting at.

The core teachings of religions, i feel are fantastic, however, religion has historically used the "unknown" in order the control and shape the general populations world view. This is still done, though not to the extent it has in say, the period of the crusades (with the possible exception of islam). This is not a "science vs. religion" thread as many will perceive it to be. It is the future danger of blindly accepting what "the powers that be" propose to us as Truth. It is also not postulating that true science is worthless, as true science will take the truth at any cost.

The point put forth is that the gap between the general population and the technology they use is widening every day. I can not think of a correlation between history, and the times we are experiencing today, and so i think there are some possible problems that will arise. Some of which are very likely to lead into the mass blind faith involved in some of the worst atrocities in history. I dont feel this has necessarily happened yet, but we are in very real danger of it happening as we continue to advance our technology.

The mysticism and magic which yields mass control on generalized religion can now be applied to how many feel about science, except there is no personal search for this proposed truth, since the common individual will not have resources, or access to the resources, in which to search it out for themselves. Religion, as a whole, will generally discourage this personal search saying that these things must be found in a church, or a specific book, etc. But the personal search, while discouraged, can still take place. This is not the case with the industry of science.

This post is not speaking to the validity of science, it is speaking to how humans have used the "unknown" to control the population for thousands of years, and that there is the very real possibility (in my mind) of the exact same thing happening with generalized science. I feel that is a very dangerous connotation.



posted on Dec, 24 2010 @ 08:00 PM
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Really? No one has anything to say about this topic? Not even to just call me an idiot?


Psshhh, last time i put that much effort into a post.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 09:13 PM
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See, i am a muslim, and i will give perspective from a muslim's (me at least) point of view.

Science is merely a tool to understand and achieve things.

Sometimes, what God told us is beyond our understanding. But it does provide a theory
for which we can use science to measure it.

For example, why must human slaughter cattle? (Slaughter = Cut the lower part of its neck)

Why not shot them in the head?
Why no stab its heart?
It'll also die if we use this way, aint it?

Well the reason why is because slaughtering is SCIENTIFICALLY proven as the least painful way to kill animals.

So science is not a religion, but it do serves as an important tool to understand religion.
And I believe, in the grand scheme of things, it fits nicely there.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by natgar
 


Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts friend


Once again, i have to clarify, this isnt about "science vs religion" it is about the gap between the general public and their understanding of the science behind their everyday life, and the possible future repercussions of such a scenario.

I have all but given up on the thread though. In the end, as long as everyone keeps questioning everything i think we will be all right. I have my doubts, but we'll see



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 01:08 PM
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Ok, ill try one more time. I see this situation progressing on a daily basis.

My guess as to what is happening is that people are reading the title, already have their concept of what this is about, and just post (or dont even read it at all). It seems to be a prevalent problem amongst ATS, and just communication in general. I didnt want a wall of text of just me talking, so i wasnt entirely thorough. Hoping others would bring up some points for discussion.

I think the most obvious representation of this hypothesis would be in the combination of technology like facebook, twitter, and smartphones. Some people i have talked to firmly believe that talking in person is obsolete. Some of the people i know have trouble taking their eyes off of their cell phones for long enough to actually make eye contact. It has also become increasingly difficult to actually have conversations with the general person, as they dont know what to say beyond the 150 (or somewhere around there) characters allowed in twitter.

These things are disturbing to me, and i dont necessarily see it getting better due to my aforementioned points.

If for nothing else, would someone reply in a relevant manner to at least instill a modicum of hope in regards to this situation? Im a nice guy, ill try to return the favor sometime. Just reply, pweaaasssee?
I really feel this is a strong issue that will only get worse, and the zero relevant replies certainly doesnt make me feel better about the situation. In fact, it made me think it is all much further along than i had previously suspected.

See, i even asked nicely and entirely pathetically!

edit on 30-12-2010 by sinohptik because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-12-2010 by sinohptik because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by natgar
See, i am a muslim, and i will give perspective from a muslim's (me at least) point of view.

Science is merely a tool to understand and achieve things.

Sometimes, what God told us is beyond our understanding. But it does provide a theory
for which we can use science to measure it.

For example, why must human slaughter cattle? (Slaughter = Cut the lower part of its neck)

Why not shot them in the head?
Why no stab its heart?
It'll also die if we use this way, aint it?

Well the reason why is because slaughtering is SCIENTIFICALLY proven as the least painful way to kill animals.

So science is not a religion, but it do serves as an important tool to understand religion.
And I believe, in the grand scheme of things, it fits nicely there.




I would love to hear more from a Muslim perspective.

I'm someone who craves knowing things - - even if I may not agree.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by sinohptik
Ok, ill try one more time. I see this situation progressing on a daily basis.

My guess as to what is happening is that people are reading the title, already have their concept of what this is about, and just post (or dont even read it at all). It seems to be a prevalent problem amongst ATS, and just communication in general. I didnt want a wall of text of just me talking, so i wasnt entirely thorough. Hoping others would bring up some points for discussion.


Some times it just takes a while - - and people finding the thread.

I think its a good title - - and its not so specific - - that discussion can't expand in several directions.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I agree, i think there are many facets to this discussion, and one id really enjoy having.

I think many forms of technology have focused exclusively on accessibility, which i feel is a double edged sword. I really cant think of a correlative period in time where everyday items that people consider critical to "life" were such a mystery to the users. Things like the iPad are sold as "magical" and an incredible amount of advertisements use "Lab Tests" to sell their products. Its almost like the industry of science is to science what organized religion is to religion.


Its also interesting to see what science created technology is released and which is not. It certainly seems to be moderated and controlled pretty tightly. Possible for reasons pertaining to the thread specifically, or at least an offshoot of it (market domination).



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 11:32 AM
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I think everything is energy.

That thought energy creates - - and everything is basically an illusion of a created thought.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I can see that, and i agree in so far as i can


I think the more we speak of it, and the more we think of it, the further we define and limit "it" into our own perspective and move further into our bias and further away from the "truth." I saw how i was limiting these things to words, and how laughable of a concept that was in and of itself. To circumvent such things, i decided it would be best to simply "be" without even that definition and limitation placed on it, and then go from there. This came after an extended stay with atheism, after being raised christian. At the start, i was deciding to find this "God" for myself, beyond others beliefs, and later on, beyond my own. I told myself if i was going to be so bold as to deny something like "God" i better have the hootzpah to search it out for myself first
Instead of what was going on in my mind making up the entirety of my experience, it expanded it from that. Very interesting journey really (to me, in retrospect). Basically a big circle/cycle as it is with all things. I found that what i was searching for ("being" essentially, though termed as God) was there all along. It was just beyond my perspective, and specifically, the words and thoughts i was using to explore it.

As such, i dont feel there is anything to be "for" or "against" as it is all the same thing anyway. But in using that very idea, certain humans have been able to exert an enormous amount of control over their fellow beings, and in greatly insidious ways. It is a long held concept that the best way to control a population is to have them fight amongst themselves. Everything from the media, to religion, to now (at least what im seeing) technology. I dont feel such things have any more power over us than we let them, but i see people letting them have as much control as those "powers that be" want.
edit on 31-12-2010 by sinohptik because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by sinohptik
 


I believe the key aspect here are the masses...

In religions of old you went to the same person for help with cold symptoms or child birth as you did with wishes of marrying someone, or other existential issues.

Regardless of what these treatments are based on, be it wisdom, previous anecdotal experiences, superstition or scientific experimentation, there has always been a sense of trust in the practitioners on the part of the subjects.


This trust, this blind faith of sorts in either priests, doctors, or scientists, creates a mental and emotional dependency and otherwise complacence on the part of the masses. It's the "they" phenomena... "they will know what to do", "im sure they are looking at that" , "i better do what they say or FEAR!!", etc...

Now this response in the masses creates an equal response in the priesthood, one of a fuller sense of their capabilities, in many cases to the point of arrogance, hubris, rigidity, and thus blindness.

This happens to priests, doctors, scientists, and other occupations of prominence like this.

In the end, its the authoritative nature of the role they play and the acquiescence of that authority by the masses which creates this witches brew.

I like your analogy to the teenage years of science, as they are experimenting with drugs(pharma), and being found to corrupt data in many different scenarios as of late, so they are in that age where they can't be trusted :-)

To the religious folks out there, this is the mystical and initiatic reason Christ stripped naked and washed the feet of his disciples... Saying "I'm just like you..." thus passing the sense of authority on to his students.

I don't know of any ritual in academia which may be like this? Not that the church does anymore either... That's one sacrament that is withheld.

And this is the crux, ones attitude toward humility within a practice in which they hold so much authority and how they view "the masses"
edit on 1-1-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2011 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by sinohptik
 


I believe the key aspect here are the masses...

In religions of old you went to the same person for help with cold symptoms or child birth as you did with wishes of marrying someone, or other existential issues.

Regardless of what these treatments are based on, be it wisdom, previous anecdotal experiences, superstition or scientific experimentation, there has always been a sense of trust in the practitioners on the part of the subjects.


This trust, this blind faith of sorts in either priests, doctors, or scientists, creates a mental and emotional dependency and otherwise complacence on the part of the masses. It's the "they" phenomena... "they will know what to do", "im sure they are looking at that" , "i better do what they say or FEAR!!", etc...

Now this response in the masses creates an equal response in the priesthood, one of a fuller sense of their capabilities, in many cases to the point of arrogance, hubris, rigidity, and thus blindness.

This happens to priests, doctors, scientists, and other occupations of prominence like this.

In the end, its the authoritative nature of the role they play and the acquiescence of that authority by the masses which creates this witches brew.


Thank you for posting, first off
Now, im very glad you expanded on what i was saying and basically burrowed down to the core of it. I had not necessarily think of the "source" behavior involved and instead was working backwards from the possible repercussions. Sounds like we met in the middle on it! I dont think i can say with confidence that such a situation is "bad" by nature, but without a doubt, some humans use it to their distinct advantage. And they have done that... Well, for a very long time and in many different ways. What do you think are the possible ways these same types of people will use right now, and going into the future? I believe that organized religion will likely stay put where it is at, but there are so many ways for this to manifest, and at its core, that makes me sad..


I like your analogy to the teenage years of science, as they are experimenting with drugs(pharma), and being found to corrupt data in many different scenarios as of late, so they are in that age where they can't be trusted :-)


See, this is why i love discussion. For whatever reason, i had not including pharma in my thoughts on this. Obviously, that is ridiculous!
I agree its not an age where they can be trusted, but i have my curiosity on how far that truly goes? I see how much money is involved with science, in general, and i cant help but immediately question peoples intent who are doing the funding. Maybe its because i am quite cynical in relation to humans as a whole that i immediately jump to corruption when big money is involved, but, it is what it is.


To the religious folks out there, this is the mystical and initiatic reason Christ stripped naked and washed the feet of his disciples... Saying "I'm just like you..." thus passing the sense of authority on to his students.

I don't know of any ritual in academia which may be like this? Not that the church does anymore either... That's one sacrament that is withheld.


Great thoughts on that. Obviously, if that was kept in organized religion, it would really hinder what they are trying to do! I think it is another example of how "the powers that be" will manicure things just so, to get their end desired result within the masses. After all, they likely arent concerned with the fringes. Using this allegory though, i look at the Large Hadron Collider and wonder "could there even be a passing of authority?" I would think the answer to be "no." What that structure learns about the world simply could not be questioned or confirmed without at least building a similar system. And at that point, it will take significant sums of money and i cant imagine it wouldnt draw the attention of some very powerful entities in this world. I think its quite possible that the results, given the scenario, would likely be manicured just like everything else in human history. In the LHCs case specifically, this could be quite detrimental in regards to our understanding of the universe. But, in the field of these things, one must "prove" it to be wrong, which brings up a problematic situation.

With doctors, if they do not know what the diagnosis is, it takes an extremely rare doctor to actually say "i do not know." It is incredible to me what they will do though. I have been shocked by how many doctors will just give random diagnoses, that are completely off base, and completely incorrect. The scary part is, most will suggest surgery, where they might find the actual problem. In those situations, human pride will usually dictate the doctor will maintain the initial diagnosis, and the fix there-of. Very dangerous game to play, on that one. It is also impressive to me how many doctors will not see anything in imaging, and immediately make the diagnosis that absolutely nothing is wrong. These cases are almost literally throwing money to the wind, as the doctor will very rarely actually believe the patient and try to take steps to solve the problem. But they will gladly suggest repeated testing instead of cheaper methods which effectively find out what might be going on. This is another arena where significant sums of money are involved.


And this is the crux, ones attitude toward humility within a practice in which they hold so much authority and how they view "the masses"


I absolutely agree, the control placed by "the powers that be" throughout the centuries through things like organized religion, have never been too concerned with the fringes of society, they are only concerned with sheer numbers and a general sociological concept of "majority rules." It is my concern, that with the overall dropping numbers in organized religion, they will simply move on to other means (if they have not already) and what "means" might those be? Just a quick observation leads me right to science and technology, with things like twitter and facebook raising large red flags. Obviously speculation though.

I also think you bring an interesting "tone" to your post, and that is that there area always exceptions to the rule. I agree entirely, there are absolutely those who pursue "true" science, "true" religion, "true" medicine, etc. But in the end, i just dont feel "the powers that be" are really all that concerned with the "fringes." Its easy enough to discredit them when the "majority rules."



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 05:48 AM
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reply to post by sinohptik
 



I had a bit of spare time on my hands, so I scrolled through the thread titles in this section, and this one jumped out at me. Interesting that we had a bit of a meeting of minds only a few hours ago!

So anyway, I have little to add to your extensive overwiew of the subject, except to say that the ever-increasing specialization in the fields of science also poses new problems - sort of like the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing.

It also concerns me that science is being elevated to untouchable and god-like status. Exactly who is doing this elevating, I am not really sure, but there seems to be a deliberate plan behind it.

The greatest mistake in the history of science was divorcing it from the discipline of philosophy, "the search for truth". And sadly that was a long time ago...



posted on Jun, 18 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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reply to post by sinohptik
 

Honestly, I think the questions asked come from the limitations of the Human mind and its current beliefs and understandings accepted by the majority. I think the funding is directly proportionate to the investors that are asked, how much charisma used in asking, the financial gain possible, and the implications of the research. This being said, I think the research is being guided by those that follow the process. Just like in politics, one goes to school to help change the way things are done only to find that things are done in such a way that to get things done means to join the establishment and nothing gets changed.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 07:08 PM
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I think science is what some of the creator gods taught the humans in the days of the City of Ur. In Egyptian, the term Ptah appears to apply to the builder god. If one takes a good look at the Ptah god one generally finds the Blue color associated with him, and this color stems from associations with the god Anu of Sumeria's days.




www.pantheon.org...



Most of what was Egypt came from the City of Ur beliefs for the Creator gods, and Ptah is an Egyptian version. We also find things like Tubal Cane as the master of metals and is basically Vulcan theme.


As we go back further in time we find the god named Enki that believed in having humans learn as much as the gods knew of the sciences. So, if one really wants to follow in the footsteps for these old god themes, the study for the sciences purely helps.

The god, the father up in heaven thing appears to be the theme for Jesus god Enki.

Since Enki was of the off world superior intelligence theme, we find the issues for the creator gods when we look at buildings of Zaggarats in and around the City of Ur. This spawned the Pyramid builders with larger examples for buildings. What was the City of Ur depended upon the Euphrates river and immense water systems. Like Systems were built around Memphis using the Nile. The Nile supplied water for planting large crops using irrigation. It even appears the Pyramids were built with the assistance of water methods as the Pyramids were once surrounded by dike systems that moved giant blocks down canals and elevated them into place.

We find the same great river themes tied to the Babylon and the Euphrates, and the needs to build a bigger Zaggarat in Babylon by Nimrod. Nimrod was in conflict with the issues of Enlil and the god associated with the great flood. The Babylon Tower was once covered with blue tiles held in place with bitumen, which is about the issues of the gods of Anu. Nimrod appears to have favored Enki, which would be like Ptah.

The sciences were a big deal back in the old days and much has been lost of these methods, but slowly some of it is being found again.

One of the biggest issues of sciences of the Pyramids is their shape matches the tetrahedron shape of the crystal mineral fluorite. Fluorite has some special science properties that if used correctly with either fire or acid methods it could be made to kill as an early method of chemical warfare. The Pyramid's shape appears to declair this supreme level of science that was associated with some of the stories of Moses and killing the young children of Egypt, etc.

The gods of early religion back in those days became gods because of their amazing science talents, from building to the workings of metals, to advanced chemical warfare systems using the toxic power of fluoride in common minerals of the region.




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