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The Unions are out of control

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posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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city-journal.org...


The camera focuses on an official of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), California’s largest public-employee union, sitting in a legislative chamber and speaking into a microphone. “We helped to get you into office, and we got a good memory,” she says matter-of-factly to the elected officials outside the shot. “Come November, if you don’t back our program, we’ll get you out of office.’


These public sector unions are driving the US into financial ruin. It is impossible for a state to effectively run their economy if they are shackled with the burden of greedy unions and workers who are willing to sabotage their state’s economy for the benefit of their own pocket books.

As most of us know, the general public sector employment does not tend to far exceed the income of the private sector employment. What does make such a large difference however are the costs that are placed upon the state, i.e. the tax payers. With lucrative pensions, health benefits, paid vacation, and other perks mostly gained from the heavy hand of Union involvement the citizens who work hard and do not have such great pensions, health benefits, paid vacation, or other perks are paying for these people’s benefits.

Well when the unions during a recession, when ordinary family’s are tightening their belt, demand pay increases, better working conditions, less work time, and when these things cannot be met they either demand it be placed on the public tab, ringing up more debt, or they go on strike until they get what they want.



They do not share the burden of sacrifice like the workers in the private sector do. While the small business owner is tightening his budget, they are demanding better incentives. When the corporations begin to close down their businesses due to union pressure, they demand more. It is a repetitive cycle that these thugs are pushing upon the American people, the government, and private employers.

I could rant for hours about the big bankers and CEO’s on how they are destroying America with their greed but so too are the Unions. What sense does it make for a mob group to make threatening demands toward a business which is tightening its belt during an economic slump? Do they not understand the meaning of shared sacrifice?

Sure the employee might get hit with losing health benefits, pension benefits, work hours, salary, etc… But at the end of the day those people still have their jobs. That is quite different compared to unions making threatening demands on a recession struck business that will be forced to lay off those employees instead of just making painful cuts.

But of course we will never see these unions put in their place and forced to learn the meaning of shared sacrifice because they have their paid thugs crawling in every corner of local, state, and federal government. Demanding that nothing happen to these employees but instead just raise the debt some more on the American people who are already paying for these government workers, it just strikes me as being just as blatantly ignorant as those morons on Wall Street getting multimillion dollar bonuses.



Class War: How Public Servants Became Our Masters


The average federal salary (including benefits) is set to grow from $72,800 in 2008 to $75,419 in 2010, CBS reported. But the real action isn’t in what government employees are being paid today; it’s in what they’re being promised for tomorrow. Public pensions have swollen to unrecognizable proportions during the last decade. In June 2005, BusinessWeek reported that “more than 14 million public servants and 6 million retirees are owed $2.37 trillion by more than 2,000 different states, cities and agencies,” numbers that have risen since then. State and local pension payouts, the magazine found, had increased 50 percent in just five years.


Awhile back in 1919 a then governor known as Calvin Coolidge was relatively a friend of the unions at the time when they were just gaining traction during the First Red Scare. During that year the Police Commissioner in Boston refused to sanction a police union and suspended the leaders from the force. Then 1,100 police officers went on strike, roughly 3/4ths of the Boston police force, this led to virtual lawlessness in Boston and rioting erupted. The mayor of Boston called on the local militia to fulfill the duty of the striking police.

Governor Coolidge quickly called upon the Massachusetts Guard which caused such a show of force the entire strike collapsed. All those police officers who went on strike were not allowed back into the police force and were replaced with returning servicemen from World War 1. These new officers were given higher pay, additional holidays, and free uniforms.


(Militia clearing streets of Boston)

Boston Police Strike


"Your assertion that the Commissioner was wrong cannot justify the wrong of leaving the city unguarded. That furnished the opportunity; the criminal element furnished the action. There is no right to strike against the public safety by anyone, anywhere, any time. ... I am equally determined to defend the sovereignty of Massachusetts and to maintain the authority and jurisdiction over her public officers where it has been placed by the Constitution and laws of her people."

- Telegraph from Governor Calvin Coolidge to Samuel Gompers, September 14, 1919.

This built a strong reputation for Governor Coolidge who in 1920 became the Vice President of the United States and upon President Harding’s death became President and elected in 1924.

It is in my opinion that Unions have done a lot of good for the labor rights and working standards in this country, but they have gained far too much power and influence. I do not believe any public sector employee should be permitted to join a union since their employer is the government and thus it creates a conflict of interest.

One of America’s core principles is the right to business as we are all businessmen/women. We all have the right to create our own business if we want. We should not be forced into the corner by any mob like group, all employers should have the right to restrict access to a union if they so choose, it is their business in the end. Just as all employee’s have the right to strike or make demands, so long as the employee and the union recognizes that they do have limits and they do not control the business or the employer.

Unionization in the public sector is bleeding our local, state, and federal economy dry. Like a vampire sucking the blood out of its host, unless it knows the point to stop it will not kill the host, but if it continues on with its selfishness the host will be dead and the vampire will die too.
edit on 12/22/2010 by Misoir because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 01:42 PM
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Just wanted to give this thread a bump.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


I find their threat humorous.

Who are they going to replace them with?

Republicans?

LOL



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


The reason nobody's responding to this one is because everything that needs to be said on this issue was included in the OP.

ATS has a rule against one line posts such as: I agree



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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I agree


I agree


I agree



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


Misoir Suave,

Excellent topic and analysis...


Callifornia is the perfect state to use as an example. I've taught and held faculty positions inside/outside the Republic. In *most* states, university faculty/staff are NOT union-based. In Cali, you are required to join the union in all community colleges, colleges, and universities. This is hypocritical in that if you are working for the "state," why do you need protection from the almighty, righteous "state"? It really serves no purpose other than those of politics and money.

The concept of unions has become soooo distorted in the US over the years. Unions once served a purpose. Protections from employee abuse! There are so many lawyers, HR laws, etc. currently that the need for unions has become a moot point, IMO. I can see the need for unions in some countries--i.e., China, Malaysia, name your sweat shop, etc.- -where workers are paid nill, work in wretched, unsafe conditions, and so forth.

But unions in the US? NOT needed anymore....especially for government employees!

Better stop now before I really start ranting.


Thanks for the thread!

It deserves attention.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 


Unions are the issue? You realize that you posted an article that articulates EXACTLY what the major corporations of this country do on a FEDERAL LEVEL and have done for decades, but UNIONS ARE THE ISSUE? Because they are on the side of the worker?

Yikes. I weep for a future without unions....and it is coming, with all the people buying into anti-union propaganda out there.

All I have to say is, not a single US worker would be where they are without unions, and frankly, the UNION of the united states, along with its economy, would not exist without unions. Unions are the reason we have a middle class.

A middle class is the ONLY REASON capitalism works.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Misoir
These public sector unions are driving the US into financial ruin. It is impossible for a state to effectively run their economy if they are shackled with the burden of greedy unions and workers who are willing to sabotage their state’s economy for the benefit of their own pocket books.

You are describing a race to the bottom. If Wall Street chooses to loot the economy...why blame those who are not as vulnerable as many non-unionised workers?


As most of us know, the general public sector employment does not tend to far exceed the income of the private sector employment. What does make such a large difference however are the costs that are placed upon the state, i.e. the tax payers. With lucrative pensions, health benefits, paid vacation, and other perks mostly gained from the heavy hand of Union involvement the citizens who work hard and do not have such great pensions, health benefits, paid vacation, or other perks are paying for these people’s benefits.

Those perks are generally deferred wages...as in "We can't afford to pay you what you're worth, but we'll give you these benefits instead". If management can't manage...why should those who defer wages take the hit?
Here are some often-forgotten points:
First...no company gets unionised that didn't earn the privilege. Happy workers don't just hand off a chunk of their pay for jollies. They organise when they are getting screwed by management, and you know what?

It's their freakin' right!

Secondly, a collective agreement is a mutually agreed-upon set of rules. Mutual. Negotiated and signed by both parties.

Wall Street...with the connivance and collusion of government...has allowed the North America's industry to bleed overseas...for labour costs amounting to pennies on the dollar. What do you get in return? You lose your job. Unions protect the advances made...luxuries won like weekends and paid vacations...not to mention the benefits that prop up your health system. Wall Street #s off with your money, and you want to go all vigilante on those who had a modicum of protection...freely negotiated? Are ya nuts?

How many light standards do you have awaiting the financiers? They're the villains...and they've convinced you it's your neighbours fault.

Fools.



Originally posted by sonjah1
This is hypocritical in that if you are working for the "state," why do you need protection from the almighty, righteous "state"? It really serves no purpose other than those of politics and money.
Unions once served a purpose. Protections from employee abuse! There are so many lawyers, HR laws, etc. currently that the need for unions has become a moot point, IMO. I can see the need for unions in some countries--i.e., China, Malaysia, name your sweat shop, etc.- -where workers are paid nill, work in wretched, unsafe conditions, and so forth.
But unions in the US? NOT needed anymore....especially for government employees!


Nonsense! I served as a chief steward at a major Canadian university, and they were just as eager to break labour laws, health and safety regulations and human rights laws as any other employer might be. And it was my job to police the agreement and keep them honest...and it kept me real busy! Incidentally...the faculty started to piggyback on the rights we were asserting for the staff. Nice turnaround.
edit on 22-12-2010 by JohnnyCanuck because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by Misoir
 

I believe Maggie Thatcher is unemployed at the moment.
Now that you realise why Maggie was such a good thing for Britain, perhaps you would like to borrow her?



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 



Nonsense! I served as a chief steward at a major Canadian university, and they were just as eager to break labour laws, health and safety regulations and human rights laws as any other employer might be. And it was my job to police the agreement and keep them honest...and it kept me real busy! Incidentally...the faculty started to piggyback on the rights we were asserting for the staff. Nice turnaround


Examples of the above, please? To increase my knowledge of Canada, in general, please?

Well, maybe CA Human Resources laws are different from California, but I am a certified PHR, here, in the states. All of my colleagues (outside Cali) describe Cali as a "HR" nightmare because of the *abusive EMPLOYEES* trying to wrangle the system with false workers compensation claims, etc.

This and catering to multi-generational social system cases is why California is NOW BANKRUPT!


edit on 22-12-2010 by sonjah1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
Now that you realise why Maggie was such a good thing for Britain, perhaps you would like to borrow her?

Ah...the British experience!

Ask y'all a question...How do the wealthy get away with looting the middle class of all that baby boomer money?

How do they get away with it?

The answer? They get the suckers to blame each other!

And by golly, it seems to work real well!



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by sonjah1
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 



Nonsense! I served as a chief steward at a major Canadian university, and they were just as eager to break labour laws, health and safety regulations and human rights laws as any other employer might be. And it was my job to police the agreement and keep them honest...and it kept me real busy! Incidentally...the faculty started to piggyback on the rights we were asserting for the staff. Nice turnaround


Well, maybe CA Human Resources laws are different from California, but I am a certified PHR, here, in the states. All of my colleagues (outside Cali) describe Cali as a "HR" nightmare because of the *abusive EMPLOYEES* trying to wrangle the system with false workers compensation claims, etc.

This and catering to multi-generational social system cases is why California is NOW BANKRUPT!



This is a flat out lie. Unions or not, there are going to be people that attempt to take advantage of the system. Which is why there are investigators for EVERY SINGLE CLAIM.



The reason cali is bankrupt has NOTHING to do with unions.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


AND

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I guess maybe you forgot this point?


I could rant for hours about the big bankers and CEO’s on how they are destroying America with their greed but so too are the Unions.


The corporations and other dirty employers who are screwing over employees makes me just as mad as these union goons. The workers are the innocent pedestrian caught in the middle between two forces; the corporation and the union. My issue is truly with the unions for public sector jobs and also for unions that are reckless regarding the financial situation of businesses.

I have no problem with the concept of unions and organizing, albeit I prefer guilds by far, but unions are important so long as they do not act as mobs against the employer and act as secret thugs towards the employees. Know their limits, do not push it, and refrain from being too intrusive in the decision making of private business and unions will not harm anything but rather they will help.

Currently they are doing nothing to help the working class Americans, just another bullying group.
edit on 12/22/2010 by Misoir because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


I guess maybe you forgot this point?


I could rant for hours about the big bankers and CEO’s on how they are destroying America with their greed but so too are the Unions.


The corporations and other dirty employers who are screwing over employees makes me just as mad as these union goons. The workers are the innocent pedestrian caught in the middle between two forces; the corporation and the union. My issue is truly with the unions for public sector jobs and also for unions that are reckless regarding the financial situation of businesses.

I have no problem with the concept of unions and organizing, albeit I prefer guilds by far, but unions are important so long as they do not act as mobs against the employer and act as secret thugs towards the employees. Know their limits, do not push it, and refrain from being too intrusive in the decision making of private business and unions will not harm anything but rather they will help.

Currently they are doing nothing to help the working class Americans, just another bullying group.


I totally and completely disagree. The only reason I was raised in a non-poverty situation was because of unions. The only reason this country has lasted as long as it has is because of unions.

Now I do agree that some regulation is necessary. But frankly, erring on the side of the worker is ALWAYS the right way to go, if you wish to have a strong economy.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by sonjah1
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 



Nonsense! I served as a chief steward at a major Canadian university, and they were just as eager to break labour laws, health and safety regulations and human rights laws as any other employer might be. And it was my job to police the agreement and keep them honest...and it kept me real busy! Incidentally...the faculty started to piggyback on the rights we were asserting for the staff. Nice turnaround


Examples of the above, please? To increase my knowledge of Canada, in general, please?

Well, maybe CA Human Resources laws are different from California, but I am a certified PHR, here, in the states. All of my colleagues (outside Cali) describe Cali as a "HR" nightmare because of the *abusive EMPLOYEES* trying to wrangle the system with false workers compensation claims, etc.

This and catering to multi-generational social system cases is why California is NOW BANKRUPT!


All I can say is that I protected my colleagues against abusive management practices...and any institution or business is only as good as its worst manager...and I was also called upon by HR to investigate bad managers.

And false Worker's Comp claims...backs thrown by one person being forced to do the work of two? Or stress leave caused by a bullying manager? You will always have the slackers, with or without unions...but there you can't just write off comp claims as the problem in and of themselves.

And as to examples, I can generalise or I can discuss it off-list. Circumstances would be familiar to the principals and I have to respect their privacy.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



This is a flat out lie. Unions or not, there are going to be people that attempt to take advantage of the system. Which is why there are investigators for EVERY SINGLE CLAIM.


True, that there are going to be those trying to take advantage...but chances are they have their union-rep involved if it is union-based.

Believe me, I have met with insurance reps enough! And in Cali, you are at a disadvantage because you provide bi-lingual material, and if something happens....."err....I don't understand English," but if the paycheck is off by a penny, they understand English COMPLETELY.



The reason cali is bankrupt has NOTHING to do with unions.


Are you from Cali? If so, then provide your reasons....If not speculate, please...



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Is this a union-based university? (To provide further context to the situations.)



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


The Unions Are Out of Control...



And that's why I don't have benefits, vacations, or sick pay.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by sonjah1
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



This is a flat out lie. Unions or not, there are going to be people that attempt to take advantage of the system. Which is why there are investigators for EVERY SINGLE CLAIM.


True, that there are going to be those trying to take advantage...but chances are they have their union-rep involved if it is union-based.

Believe me, I have met with insurance reps enough! And in Cali, you are at a disadvantage because you provide bi-lingual material, and if something happens....."err....I don't understand English," but if the paycheck is off by a penny, they understand English COMPLETELY.



The reason cali is bankrupt has NOTHING to do with unions.


Are you from Cali? If so, then provide your reasons....If not speculate, please...





So, you have met with insurance agents, and that is your proof?


And yes they should have a union rep on their side. Do you realize that there are people out there employed to do nothing other than prove a workers comp claim false, even if it is not? So why should they not have representation on their side, as well as against them?

The bilingual thing? Thats racism in disguise. Nearly every state provides bilingual material. Nice try though.

And being from California does not make one an expert on the state. Are you in state government? State finance? If not, your claims are as much speculation as mine are.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by sonjah1
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 

Is this a union-based university? (To provide further context to the situations.)

Staff belong to a number of unions...faculty to an association. Some problems were endemic and system wide, others caused by bad managers and exacerbated by an institutional refusal to write anti-bullying language into the CA.
And some management behaviour...from the top on down...can only be described as rectally sourced.

Are there bad union bosses and practices? Certainly...but does it follow that all union members are goons and thugs? I donno...ask your neighbour or your dad. Chances are they are/were union rank and file.

Does it also follow that unions should be dissolved? Well...do you really trust corporate America to look out for your best interests? I mean, how are they doing so far?



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