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The Masons, The Hells Angels and the Catholic Church...

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posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 02:38 AM
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For some reason, I thought I'd seen the words "bed wetter" when I saw Jkd Up's title. Maybe it's the yellow color.




posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



That's like saying that a pot of coffee is just hot water with some color in it, or that rat poison is just a bunch of sugar pills.


So if one man out of 10s of 1000s is a rapist, then all men are rapists? Or if one Muslim is a terrorist, then all Muslims are terrorists? By your logic, all of us would be everything. Are we to judge the majority of every group by the actions of a very, very small percentage?

In my district alone, there are probably 5000 Masons. Of those 5000, I know of 1 that was kicked out of the fraternity for failing to disclose a felony conviction for a bar fight. I know a dozen or so that have fairly high positions within the government, and most of those are also Tea Partiers and conservatives.

Your logic is just plain wrong. If there are 150,000 Freemasons in the country, and there are maybe 100 that are supposedly among the "elites," then those 100 do not define the entire fraternity. Their affiliation with the fraternity is mere coincidence. Less than 0.07% of an organization do not define the organization. If that were the case then we could condemn every male, every religion, every female, every race, by the actions of the 1% that choose violence and crime instead of civility. We know this to be false. Therefore, despite any small subset that might have nefarious intentions, we cannot condemn the entire organization.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Grand Masters can be kicked out of office by a simple majority vote. In the appendant bodies, there is a hierarchy.
But a state's Grand Master can kick out any Blue Lodge member under his authority. Membership in appendant bodies REQUIRES membership in a local Blue Lodge. Ergo, the Grand Master of Louisiana can kick out Ronald Seale, because Ronald Seale has a Baton Rogue lodge as his home lodge, even though Seale is the Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite Supreme Mother Council of the World.

Or the time the Grand Master of AZ effectively shut down the Shriners in his state.
edit on 2011.1.10 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


Interesting Development......

ATS Response to Jared Loughner

Since Erad3 was the shooter and an ATSer, it will be short work until all Conspiracy Theorists and all ATSers are lumped in with him. Seemed relavent to this thread, because that is exactly what you are attempting to do to Freemasons. The shoe is on the other foot now. If it is ok for you to do to Freemasons, then it is ok for the MSM and government to do to you.

Do you consider yourself responsible for Jared? Should you have done more? Are you not "in the know" on ATS? Are actions against all Conspiracy Theorists and all ATSers now appropriate because of the action of this one character?

In light of this development, I should expect your view to change somewhat.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


Actually the New York Times made no mention of him being on ATS but they did mention his YouTube videos.

No offence but it’s not really an apples to apple comparison.

ATS Members have no particular code of conduct, no membership dues, any command structure, or any oath or commitment.

Nor is there any test to become an ATS Member or any initiation.

So all in all it’s not a very good comparison.

I will say this “A mind convinced against its own will is a mind that remains unconvinced”.

If a person is predisposed towards a conclusion, and an opinion and attitude, and they wish to cling to it at all costs, nothing you can do or say is likely to ever change that.

Maybe you should consider joining the Optimist Club where everyday is a sunny and pleasant one!



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



That's like saying that a pot of coffee is just hot water with some color in it, or that rat poison is just a bunch of sugar pills.


So if one man out of 10s of 1000s is a rapist, then all men are rapists? Or if one Muslim is a terrorist, then all Muslims are terrorists? By your logic, all of us would be everything. Are we to judge the majority of every group by the actions of a very, very small percentage?

If the Freemasons are committing rape, and they are also charged with making men better, then yes you can infer that men are rapists.


In my district alone, there are probably 5000 Masons. Of those 5000, I know of 1 that was kicked out of the fraternity for failing to disclose a felony conviction for a bar fight. I know a dozen or so that have fairly high positions within the government, and most of those are also Tea Partiers and conservatives.

So, Tea Partiers and conservatives are your model of community leadership?


Your logic is just plain wrong. If there are 150,000 Freemasons in the country, and there are maybe 100 that are supposedly among the "elites," then those 100 do not define the entire fraternity.

They set the tone and environment by which the others operate. It's not a completely egalitarian system.


Their affiliation with the fraternity is mere coincidence.

That they rose to leadership positions instead of being kicked out is probably not a coincidence either.


Less than 0.07% of an organization do not define the organization. If that were the case then we could condemn every male, every religion, every female, every race, by the actions of the 1% that choose violence and crime instead of civility. We know this to be false. Therefore, despite any small subset that might have nefarious intentions, we cannot condemn the entire organization.

If the subset is the people who actually run the organization, then there is reason to condemn the entire group, because the group's mission, methodology, leadership potential, etc. come into question.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Grand Masters can be kicked out of office by a simple majority vote. In the appendant bodies, there is a hierarchy.
But a state's Grand Master can kick out any Blue Lodge member under his authority. Membership in appendant bodies REQUIRES membership in a local Blue Lodge. Ergo, the Grand Master of Louisiana can kick out Ronald Seale, because Ronald Seale has a Baton Rogue lodge as his home lodge, even though Seale is the Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite Supreme Mother Council of the World.

Or the time the Grand Master of AZ effectively shut down the Shriners in his state.

This is not really egalitarian, then, is it?



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:25 PM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



So, Tea Partiers and conservatives are your model of community leadership?


Personally.....yes, but that wasn't my point. I made that statement,, because it goes to show that the Mason that I know, who also have some rank in State Government are the more Conservative types....small government, less regulation, less intrusive participation. The types of men that I know, who also happen to have rank in Govt and in Masonry, are not the types that would want to expand their control or power, and certainly would not support an NWO. They are more likely to be on ATS and preparing their SHTF cabins in the woods.

Could just be a local thing here in my town, but that is my observation.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


From what I see in his profile page, erad3 was not in any high position in ATS. As a matter of fact, he made only 130 posts. There are ATS members who make that many in 1 day. I'm not even sure who on ATS knew him well.

The mainstream media does this kind of thing to squeeze as much sensationalism out of a story as possible, and operates with a negative bias towards conspiracy theory. Even this History Channel is not immune. Smart people know better.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



The mainstream media does this kind of thing to squeeze as much sensationalism out of a story as possible, and operates with a negative bias towards conspiracy theory. Even this History Channel is not immune. Smart people know better.


I agree, and I could say exactly the same thing about most anti-masonic threads.

No offense to you personally, but most of the attacks on Masonry pick the most outrageous and rare behavior and then capitalize on that for sensationalism. Luckily, in your own words, most "smart people know better."


edit on 10-1-2011 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



So, Tea Partiers and conservatives are your model of community leadership?


Personally.....yes, but that wasn't my point. I made that statement,, because it goes to show that the Mason that I know, who also have some rank in State Government are the more Conservative types....small government, less regulation, less intrusive participation. The types of men that I know, who also happen to have rank in Govt and in Masonry, are not the types that would want to expand their control or power, and certainly would not support an NWO. They are more likely to be on ATS and preparing their SHTF cabins in the woods.

Could just be a local thing here in my town, but that is my observation.

This is appealing to authority, and is exactly how nefarious groups are able to fill up seats.

You can't be a Christian and a Freemason. This has been proven over and over.

Your friends who believe in small government should be pissed to know that the heads of the York and Scottish Rite are British nobles.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



The mainstream media does this kind of thing to squeeze as much sensationalism out of a story as possible, and operates with a negative bias towards conspiracy theory. Even this History Channel is not immune. Smart people know better.


I agree, and I could say exactly the same thing about most anti-masonic threads.

No offense to you personally, but most of the attacks on Masonry pick the most outrageous and rare behavior and then capitalize on that for sensationalism. Luckily, in your own words, most "smart people know better."

The difference between the mainstream media and "anti-Masonic" threads, is that when you provide the Masons with proof to back up your claims, they either do the Ray Charles shuffle, or immediately begin launching personal attacks.

An "anti-Mason" must provide clear, concise proof for his claims, but a Freemason can be trusted on his word. That is not logically sound.

edit on 10-1-2011 by vcwxvwligen because: bracket



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


Every Mason that I know is a Christian. I am the only partial exception. I consider myself more of a deist, because I don't believe Christ is the "only" way to reach God. In my opinion, most American Christians are actually Deists, because they are moderate and accepting of many other religions and they believe everyone has a chance to go to heaven through good works and moral decisions. True Christians must believe Christ is infallible, and Christ says, "no one gets to the father but through me." Therefore, a true Christian must necessarily believe everyone else is doomed to hell. Most Christians do not believe this, so they are actually Deists who choose to follow the teachings of Christ. That is how I describe myself.

As for Masons, we must believe in "one, everliving God." We don't care what his/her name is in any particular religion.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


Every Mason that I know is a Christian. I am the only partial exception. I consider myself more of a deist, because I don't believe Christ is the "only" way to reach God. In my opinion, most American Christians are actually Deists, because they are moderate and accepting of many other religions and they believe everyone has a chance to go to heaven through good works and moral decisions. True Christians must believe Christ is infallible, and Christ says, "no one gets to the father but through me." Therefore, a true Christian must necessarily believe everyone else is doomed to hell. Most Christians do not believe this, so they are actually Deists who choose to follow the teachings of Christ. That is how I describe myself.

As for Masons, we must believe in "one, everliving God." We don't care what his/her name is in any particular religion.

Deism was brought to American by the Masonic Founding Fathers.

Before that, most of the colonists were strict Protestants.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



An "anti-Mason" must provide clear, concise proof for his claims, but a Freemason can be trusted on his word. That is not logically sound.


It is logically sound, because a Mason's word is his personal experience and he speaks on behalf of the fraternity. An anti-Mason is speaking from speculation, and therefore must have some outside source to back up their claims. My first hand experience trumps someone else's speculation, unless they have solid proof to refute my experiences, and even then their proof must current and bonafide, because a source from 1900 does not refute my personal experience in 2010.

It is a very difficult and fruitless argument for both sides, but I enjoy the debates, and I often learn some things from the anti-Mason sources.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 09:52 PM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



Deism was brought to American by the Masonic Founding Fathers.

Before that, most of the colonists were strict Protestants.


True, but the neat thing is that I was pointing out this flaw in modern Christians long before I was a Mason, or knew there was such a thing as "Deism." I began using that term in college when I first learned of it and it fit my beliefs, and I didn't join the Masons until almost 10 years later, and I joined because of my involvement with the Shriner hospitals, I didn't learn of the connection to the Founding Fathers or Deism until after the fact.

Therefore.........for me........it really came full circle and made perfect sense. I didn't learn of these things through Masonry, but it was nice that the pieces fit together and justified one another.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



An "anti-Mason" must provide clear, concise proof for his claims, but a Freemason can be trusted on his word. That is not logically sound.


It is logically sound, because a Mason's word is his personal experience and he speaks on behalf of the fraternity. An anti-Mason is speaking from speculation, and therefore must have some outside source to back up their claims. My first hand experience trumps someone else's speculation, unless they have solid proof to refute my experiences, and even then their proof must current and bonafide, because a source from 1900 does not refute my personal experience in 2010.

It is a very difficult and fruitless argument for both sides, but I enjoy the debates, and I often learn some things from the anti-Mason sources.

This is inferring, basically, that nobody who ever entered the Craft would have been disappointed or would need to speak ill of it.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 



Deism was brought to American by the Masonic Founding Fathers.

Before that, most of the colonists were strict Protestants.


True, but the neat thing is that I was pointing out this flaw in modern Christians long before I was a Mason, or knew there was such a thing as "Deism." I began using that term in college when I first learned of it and it fit my beliefs, and I didn't join the Masons until almost 10 years later, and I joined because of my involvement with the Shriner hospitals, I didn't learn of the connection to the Founding Fathers or Deism until after the fact.

Therefore.........for me........it really came full circle and made perfect sense. I didn't learn of these things through Masonry, but it was nice that the pieces fit together and justified one another.

So, in your opinion, what is the status of Christianity in America?

Could the Freemasons have been at least partly responsible for changing Americans' attitude towards mainstream religion?
edit on 10-1-2011 by vcwxvwligen because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 10:44 PM
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- watch the whole series and learn how illuminati succuesfully infiltrated itself into free masonary and there are just too many concidences, sybolism and propaganda in our music and media that attribute to these videos and you will see this if you just look

www.youtube.com...
also watch the rik clays interviews in conjunction with the above video/s i am very optimistic so please leave your opinion after watching the series hopefully someone can watch all these and summarise it better for me.

www.youtube.com...

before watching all these i want you to drop your preconceived notions your preconceived ideas that it cant be happening, that this is impossible. drop those kind of obstacles and just take a look at the evidence and maybe just maybe what im all about is just maybe you will see or hear something here today that will convince you something is terribly wrong.
edit on 10-1-2011 by thefreemasontruth because: bloodlines



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Could the Freemasons have been at least partly responsible for changing Americans' attitude towards mainstream religion?
God, I sure hope so. It was the Masons who put in the whole Freedom of Religion thing in the Constitution. And in the Scottish Rite we swear to uphold the separation of church and state. So far both of those principles have survived 200+ years in America, in spite of efforts to block them by the "religious right".



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