Neanderthal Killing Floor

I found this article from National Geographic of yesterday's date about a new type of ancient human found in Russia the 'Denisovans.'

A previously unknown kind of human—the Denisovans—likely roamed Asia for thousands of years, probably interbreeding occasionally with humans like you and me, according to a new genetic study.

In fact, living Pacific islanders in Papua New Guinea may be distant descendants of these prehistoric pairings, according to new analysis of DNA from a girl's 40,000-year-old pinkie bone, found in Siberian Russia's Denisova cave.

This "new twist" in human evolution adds substantial new evidence that different types of humans—so-called modern humans and Neanderthals, modern humans and Denisovans, and perhaps even Denisovans and Neanderthals—mated and bore offspring, experts say.............

..................In the new study the team reports successfully extracting and sequencing nuclear DNA from the bone.

Then, using DNA-comparison techniques, the scientists were able to determine that Denisovans were distinct from both modern humans and Neanderthals, yet closely related to the latter.

The team estimates Denisovans split from the parent group of Neanderthals about 350,000 years ago.

National Geographic


I just thought it tied in pretty neatly with the discussion on this thread. The bones were found in 2008 and the species was confirmed as a seperate type of human in March this year which was reported on the BBC site.

BBC - X Woman

Have to say that is pretty interesting

IMHO the likely reason they would eat each other is simple, they could of just had a very bad winter and been trapped inside with no other option, It does not seem logical that if they had food, that they would save that food for later and eat another of his kind.

It could be many things, we really have no idea what these people were like.

Just goes to show that when we learn something unknown, it shows us even more unknown questions.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Imagine what the humans of the future will say when they look back at our aghoree Indian tribes, eh?

They appear to look like hearty stock. I suppose it was the superior brain of the Homo Sapien that caused the Neanderthal extinction.

But if the Neanderthal were to have survived to this day, could you imagine the type of racial bias they would be faced with in today's society? Like a Geico commercial I suppose.....

reply to post by Kandinsky

Hey there Kadinsky, interesting subject. From references that I've seen that certainly aren't that recent (and I'm not talking about 1million BC), most scholars have agreed for quite some time that the Neanderthal was sentient and intelligent. Community action, wearing clothes, burying of the dead have all been noted. Although shorter than typical current Homo Sapien (average 5 feet) their brains were larger - although it of course cannot be proven they were more complex or had the capacity for more intelligence.

One key reason attributed to their eventual extinction while we survived is postulated to be one of the key things that sets us apart from almost if not every species that has graced this earth is that with the species Homo Sapiens Sapien the larynx lowered deeper into the throat. While this gives us the unfortunate risk of choking on our food, it also gave us the capability for a richer more detailed use of the spoken word. This meant while a Neanderthal could only use phrases such as 'hungry, let's hunt', Homo sapien could use the equivalent of 'mammoth approaching, you four at the back with spears, you two at front with rocks, I'll drive it into path' Of course, that is elaborating a little, but it's easy to see which species would stand more chance of survival come the scarcity of food.

The above shamelessly paraphrases some elements of the excellent work by Bill Bryson titled Mother tongue which I'd recommend to anyone.

reply to post by Kandinsky

Nice grab, here, and a good debate following. Oh, for the 'tastes like chicken' crowd? I'm guessing that the natives of New Guinea called it 'Long Pig' for a reason.

All that said...I do believe I heard of a flute found on a Neanderthal site, which just adds to the premise of not-quite-human...but pretty close.

reply to post by Kandinsky


So your only proof that they didn't eat each other out of necessity in this ONE instance is the Mediterranean was manageable at the time? Sounds kinda lame brother.

reply to post by Kandinsky


I'd imagine, what with humans hunting you for rape, your homes, and meat, that Neanderthal desperation grew exponentially. They copied a lot of stuff from us. Including war.

They were so ugly... jeez

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

I'd imagine, what with humans hunting you for rape, your homes, and meat, that Neanderthal desperation grew exponentially. They copied a lot of stuff from us. Including war.

Hi Gorman,

Neanderthals died out approximately 30,000 years ago, is there evidence for any of the points you've made above - they are interesting suppositions. I'd assume (assume being the key word) territorial domination was as strong in all species as it is today for almost every animal type on the planet - and I think it's true to say homo sapien is not the only species where rape sadly takes place, this occurs within so many other species that I'm not sure why Neanderthal would be innocent of such a crime. Not sure about war in our modern sense of the word though.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9f4d71ef271e.jpg[/atsimg]

Recent findings have shed more light on our extinct cousins, the Neanderthals. Much like us, they seem to be a complex people.

Some few years ago, it was a general assumption that they were uncultured, stupid and wiped out by the success of our own species. That's all changed in the recent past as we've discovered evidence to suggest they used jewellery and buried their dead with flowers.. We've also found the remains of a withered male in the caves of Shanidar.. This individual lived into adulthood. The fact that he lived so long with disabilities is taken by some as evidence that they looked after each other in similar ways to us. Others have taken these burials and signs of care to imagine Neanderthals as some spiritual race of harmless wanderers cruelly destroyed by Man's inhumanity to Man.

Not quite...

The discovery of a mass-murder site has provided more evidence that Neanderthals killed each other and cannibalised the dead. The remains of twelve bodies have been cut, carved and bludgeoned to get at the marrow.

In a cave in Northern Spain, researchers have discovered clues to the identity of the victims of a mass murder committed 49,000 years ago. The butchered bones of 12 men, women, and children protruding from the floor may be the remains of an extended Neandertal family that were killed and eaten by their fellow Neandertals. Now, DNA analysis of the bones is providing rare clues into the family structure of these close cousins of modern humans.

Grisly Scene Gives Clues to Neandertal Family Structure

They aren't extinct, they still exist, they call themselves the elites and live in washinton dc among other places. It took a lot of plastic surgery for obama to get rid of his low brow and slack jaw.

reply to post by something wicked


Both Neanderthal and Man were the apex of the evolution of this form up to this point. The evolution of the human body occurred roughly 200,000 years ago. But although this species had out body, we know know it did not have our brains. Even so, the form was only a slight modification from the form generated from homo erectus, almost 2 million years ago. From this species came man, Neanderthal, and possibly 1-2, maybe even 3 other species. By 50,000 years ago, mankind evolved from Homo Sapiens, creating Homo Sapiens sapiens. Us. This species, starting from 50,000 years ago, began a spreading out process, systematically killing, out competing, raping, and absorbing every other species out there. Examples of the fallen include Homo sapiens idaltu, Homo rhodesiensis, Homo floresiensis, and concluding with Homo neanderthalensis.

We know for a fact that homo sapiens raped Neanderthals because of several hybrids discovered. We know it was more than likely rape and not consenting sex, because virtually Neanderthal caves we do find show a sudden change of ownership from them, to us. We also know that Neanderthals did not advance in any way shape and or form until contact with us. And that this contact was not friendly, because within 10-20 thousand years of it, the Neanderthals were dead. It is also reinforced by the fact that their youngest remains, found in Spain, show signs of desperation. IE, Corpses found unburied, left along the grassy plains, uncared for, and caves with, as the OP says, signs of cannibalism and fighting. Things that older caves do not show as much of, with signs of medicine use, burial (If I recall, one with a flower in it), and primitive works of care and love. The transition from this "Shire" life style, to a life on the run, happening at the same time as man's arrival, can only mean one thing. We killed them off.

Ultimately, mankind would become the only intelligent primate species left. All others would die off. Either by our hands or by nature's. We had what the rest did not. Exponential growth and development, imagination, extreme creativity, and adaptability. Thus, we spread across the planet and committed our first genocide.

If you want sources for that, you basically need to look it up and read. Read read read. The more you read the more you learn. There isn't really one source for that. It's the sum total of research and looking up.

Oh, and I invite you to form your own conclusions after you have done so. And if you are interested, PM me and have a good discussion. I do love discussing this time period.

A good place to start would be a few links bellow.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.telegraph.co.uk...

blogs.discovermagazine.com...

You'll have to know when to call BS on some articles. IE, like here.

www.hindustantimes.com...

The article says first tool. When, in fact, the first tools were made long long long before Neanderthals ever walked the Earth. Long before even Homo Erectus. Long before the human form that we still used even existed.

Learn, read, and discuss. Best way science works.

reply to post by Kandinsky


The vast majority of our existence as a species was simultaneous with Neanderthals. In fact, we coexisted with them for approximately 200,000 years. I think a combination of cross-breeding between them and us, plus territorial confrontations ended up wiping them out. They do still live on, though. Many humans today contain Neanderthal DNA.

reply to post by Gorman91


You're right. I believe Homo habilis were the first to use tools. They were the first species under the genus Homo.

reply to post by Gorman91


I'm sorry, and please don't quote the wiki at me - I asked how this action was different to any other species on Earth taking territory off another. I assume your knowledge comes off the net from sources you choose to use, that's fine, no problem there at all, but you seem to paint homo sapien as the criminal and Neanderthal as innocent victim - that is the question I asked. I have no reason to believe that the species that became us did not steal land and possibly have land stolen, possibly rape and possibly raped (although proof of interbreeding is NOT proof of rape, may have been, may not have been - please show me evidence and I will happily concede). And evidence of war as any concept of the word exists and you point me to wiki? Trust me, your post that I replied to seemed to state it's just us homo sapiens that spoil the party whereas I think you'll find things may be more complex than that - well you won't find, and I can't say that definitively because I do not believe such information exists, or at least has not been empirically proven.

Please do not take this as an antognistic or condescending post, although yours certainly was.

reply to post by Gorman91


Hi, I want to qualify the post I made because I realise it may come across as yay, homo sapien good, boo Neanderthal bad (although you actually did say the opposite), and that certainly was not my intention, I just asked for quantification. Based on your comments, can you show empirical evidence that....

Neanderthals did not take territory from either their own species or others before they came into contact with Homo Sapien

Neanderthals did not commit rape until they came into contact with Homo Sapien

Neanderthal did not enter a state of war (concept simply does not apply) until they came into contact with Homo Sapien.....

reply to post by something wicked


Well Neanderthals did not become us. They have no connection to us. They broke off before we evolved. They were different. But certainly not innocent victims. Merely in the wrong place at the wrong time. Neanderthals exterminated species in their day too. Wolly Mammoths for one. Hunted down by them, not so much us. In addition to that, there was a species in Europe before Neanderthals, that every likely they killed off though out competing, killing, and who knows, raping too.

There is some evidence, though I would not be quick to call it scientific, that Neanderthals raped humans and ate them too, when they first left Africa.

www.themandus.org...

www.dailytelegraph.com.au... r-1225776130730

I also would not say I chose my sources. I compare them, and what wins wins. Wiki is not a source, but it has sources listed. You read them you compare them you judge them to be true or first. This is what an encyclopedia is for. Again, read. It's as simple as that.

As to other species and rape. It's in every species. If you think about it. how many species besides humans, a few of our ancestors, elephants, and maybe dolphins actually have the idea of consent? For most species it's pretty much what we would call rape. It's not pretty. Thank God we made civilization and realized people have rights.

As for proof humans raped Neanderthals, the greatest proof is a lack of Neanderthal adult skeletons present in human burial sites and caves. The simple fact is that if there was a happy wedding and get together, there would be some form of evidence of this throughout the 20,000 years of us and them being together. That's a lot of time. There should be something. instead, what we have is this:

-Neanderthals living steadily without much environmental pressure

-Humans enter the area

-hybrids skeletons. No Neanderthal parent skeletons found with them.

-signs of cannibalism, lack of care for the dead, and Neanderthals adopting human tools.

-Neanderthals go extinct.

A bit of deductive reasoning leaves us with no other logical answer. We were the bad guys by the end of it all. But that's a relative word, remember. There were no good guys ever. I mean, the oldest evidence of civilization includes whore hoses, execution squares, and in some cases, human sacrifice. The fact remains that nobody was the nice guy before, let's say, the fist city with a decent set of rules some 8,000 years ago. There was no party to spoil, as it was kill or be killed. I would say my post is condescending to the first humans, because I don't think they deserve much respect.

Anything else?

reply to post by something wicked

Neanderthals did not take territory from either their own species or others before they came into contact with Homo Sapien

Neanderthals did not commit rape until they came into contact with Homo Sapien

Neanderthal did not enter a state of war (concept simply does not apply) until they came into contact with Homo Sapien.....

These things all happened. Not saying they did not. Imagine it like a bunch of waring caves, and then humans pop in, not fighting each other, but the waring states. While I have no doubt humans fought each other at times, the fact remains that they did not fight each other and eat each other, at least not popularly, while they were engaging Neanderthals for their caves. It was an ice age. Humans wanted homes. Neanderthals had caves. There is quite a bit of evidence of trade between both groups, and between each other. But they also were violent enemies. As most Neanderthal sites became, quite quickly too, human sites.

When I say war, I mean a group of maybe 14-30 needed a cave. They saw a family of Neanderthals with their caves. They banded together to take their homes. This caused Neanderthals to migrate west, over populate, and go extinct.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by something wicked

 

Neanderthals did not take territory from either their own species or others before they came into contact with Homo Sapien

Neanderthals did not commit rape until they came into contact with Homo Sapien

Neanderthal did not enter a state of war (concept simply does not apply) until they came into contact with Homo Sapien.....

These things all happened. Not saying they did not. Imagine it like a bunch of waring caves, and then humans pop in, not fighting each other, but the waring states. While I have no doubt humans fought each other at times, the fact remains that they did not fight each other and eat each other, at least not popularly, while they were engaging Neanderthals for their caves. It was an ice age. Humans wanted homes. Neanderthals had caves. There is quite a bit of evidence of trade between both groups, and between each other. But they also were violent enemies. As most Neanderthal sites became, quite quickly too, human sites.

When I say war, I mean a group of maybe 14-30 needed a cave. They saw a family of Neanderthals with their caves. They banded together to take their homes. This caused Neanderthals to migrate west, over populate, and go extinct.

edit on 23-12-2010 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

Thank you. so basically you are saying there is no evidence to show behaviourally on the points you listed, Homo Sapien and Neanderthal were as good/bad as each other and anything else is conjecture? That's all I was asking.

reply to post by something wicked


To put it mildly, we are all animals. There is no proof that we were not capable of doing the same exact things. Just that we did different things based on our position, No different than how a Camel herder behaves differently than a farmer, but are capable of doing each other's jobs.

However, please take not that this does not cover all things humans DO do. Something called "Behavioral modernity". That is the proof, if you will, of how we acted differently. Read up on it.