Christians, will you be Martyrs for Christ or for Israel?

The recent tragic knife attack in Israel of an American, Kristine Luken, who died, and British national, Kay Susan Wilson, should raise this question.
Israeli police look at whether slaying of American was 'nationalistic'

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israeli authorities are investigating whether the attack that left an American woman dead and her friend injured was "nationalistic," a police spokesman said Monday, using a term for crimes in which a victim is targeted based on an Arab or Israeli background.
...
"It was clear that they came to kill," the Israeli newspaper Haaretz quoted Wilson as saying. "Who carries around a knife like that?"

Wilson said she was wearing a Star of David on a necklace when she was attacked, according to the newspaper.

"He took it off like a gentleman and then turned me around and stabbed in the place where the Star of David had been," Haaretz quoted her as saying.

Both victims were members of a Christian ministry called CMJ (The Church's Ministry among Jewish people)
that has as its mission statement

Investing in the Spiritual Rebirth of the Jewish People Since 1809
CMJ has been ministering to Jewish people since 1809 and has a vibrant work in both Israel and the UK today.

What was the motive for the attack? Police seem to think it was politically motivated. Were the assailants Israeli Arabs or Israeli Jews?

Either group of possible assailant is possible. On the one hand, the victims were active in converting Jews to what is called "completed Jews" through accepting Jesus as their Messiah. This is considered among some Zionists as an affront worthy of death.

On the other hand, CMJ partners closely with the following ministry organisation, Christian Friends of Israel which has as its mission

1. Bless Israel by means of practical and moral support.

2. Serve the Church with teaching and resources about God's love and purposes for Israel and the Hebraic roots of our faith.

The practical support is collecting donations from Christians to build infrastructure(roads, schools, clinics, etc) in the illegal Jewish only settlements in Palestine. And convince Christians that supporting the so-called Jewish State of Israel no matter what is god's will, regardless of the impact upon non-Jews.

So a Jew may want to commit political murder against a Christian evangelist, and a non-Jew may want to commit political murder against a supporter of the political entity known as the Jewish State of Israel.

So Christian, will you die for Jesus Christ or will you die for the worldly political entity of Israel?

reply to post by pthena


I am willing to die for Jesus/Yeshua.
I will continue to pray for the peace
of Jerusalem and Israel!

Sometimes I get confused over various names for Christian Zionist organizations with similar names. More blatant in support of illegal settlements is the group Christian Friends of Israeli Communities which states:

CFOIC Heartland enables Christians to connect with the Jewish communities (settlements) in the heart of Biblical Israel. Judea and Samaria, (the "West Bank"), is not occupied territory. It is the birthplace of the Jewish people.

They obviously have zero place in their world view for something called Palestine or people called Palestinian.

I'm still stuck in 2010 wondering when did martyrdom become so damn cool? It's all religious fricknuttry!

reply to post by mamabeth

I am willing to die for Jesus/Yeshua.
I will continue to pray for the peace
of Jerusalem and Israel!

I don't have any reason to doubt your commitment to Jesus.
I do question what some people mean by peace of Jerusalem and Israel. Does it mean, a single Jerusalem, inhabited by a single ethno-religious group, or does it mean many peoples living together in peace?

Peace of Israel: Is that the peace of one side having crushed a different side, or is it the peace of genuine mutual respect of different peoples?

reply to post by totalmetal

I'm still stuck in 2010 wondering when did martyrdom become so damn cool? It's all religious fricknuttry!

There isn't really anything "cool" about it at all, it is the tragic result of intolerance of one group of people for another. The victims are called martyrs(witnesses) because their personal beliefs were not up for negotiation even in the face of death or threat of death.

Example: In the first century of the common era, Jesus taught certain things which were seen as threatening to the political balance between the Jewish establishment centered around the temple and the imperial Roman patron. The establishment, as a matter of "national security" offered Jesus up to the Romans as proof that they didn't plan any rift between temple and Rome. Though Jesus knew that such a thing could happen, still taught. That's a martyr. He valued his testimony as of greater worth than playing politics.

It isn't always a religious ideology, it's more a matter of personal commitment which outweighs personal survival, opposite of cowardice. By it's very nature, something done for the benefit of others.

Theyre all insane.. All life holds value .. NOTHING in this world worth killing or dying for.. Fools and Idiots think violence and killing solve problems..

reply to post by Expat888

Theyre all insane.. All life holds value .. NOTHING in this world worth killing or dying for.. Fools and Idiots think violence and killing solve problems..

But if all life holds value, and life is threatened, isn't standing up for life something which could result in death? Not exactly insane. Almost seems unavoidable.

Who all do you include in "Theyre all insane?"

Originally posted by Expat888
Theyre all insane.. All life holds value .. NOTHING in this world worth killing or dying for.. Fools and Idiots think violence and killing solve problems..

AND

When a Fool and or Idiot thinks he/they could and will take your life or family members lives with violence would you use deadly force to prevent them?

I would.

When every man, woman and child starts walking around with a halo then I'll relax.

reply to post by SLAYER69
You may be interested in a movie I saw recently: Valhalla Rising, (2009) from a user review

5 June 2010 | by nicrok (Tuebingen, Germany)
There isn't much more to say to the plot, for it hardly matters - mythology matters here, the grand sceneries matter, and the underlying message matters. It aims at showing us how superfluous the Christian God seems in a world of violence; life as a farce in the face of intangible evil. Will you desert your (Christian) God when the time has come? Here lies its main agenda: in a world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. He is indeed, he ties us to the elemental powers, and rises above.

What I got was, One eye, the pagan, was undefeatable in battle, didn't believe in the Christian Crusade to rule the Holy Land, but what is that at the end?

reply to post by pthena


Well that sounds like an interesting movie. I'll check it out.

Originally posted by pthena
look at whether slaying of American was 'nationalistic'

The timing coincides with israeli-agents conspiring to kidnap
Egyptian tourists, in order to harm Egypt's tourist economy.
It's likely payback from a government organized crime mob, with
the innocent getting caught in the middle :

israel conspires to kidnap tourists (source) :

reply to post by ToneDeaf

The timing coincides with israeli-agents conspiring to kidnap
Egyptian tourists, in order to harm Egypt's tourist economy.
It's likely payback from a government organized crime mob, with
the innocent getting caught in the middle :

I was actually hoping that some one would point out to me just how disgusting I was being to use a person's violent death as a platform for my own personal agenda. It is disgusting actually.

The Egypt spying case seems related to the ones being reported in Lebanon, associated with telecommunications.

The killing of an American is something that gets a lot more notice than the deaths of any number of Palestinians. Yet even the US State Department brushes them off.

Rachel Corrie
(April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM). She was crushed to death in the Gaza Strip by an Israel Defence Forces (IDF) bulldozer when she was kneeling in front of a local Palestinian's home, thus acting as a human shield, attempting to prevent IDF forces from demolishing the home.
. . .
U.S. Representative Brian Baird introduced House Concurrent Resolution 111 in the U.S. Congress on March 25, 2003, calling on the U.S. government to "undertake a full, fair, and expeditious investigation" into Corrie's death. The House of Representatives took no action on the resolution.[39] The Corrie family joined Representative Baird in calling for a U.S. investigation.[40] Baird, though reelected in 2004, 2006, and 2008, has not reintroduced the resolution in the Congress.

The thing to watch for in this stabbing case will be Israeli and US government reactions. Will CMJ be condemned for condoning proselytizing, since they show no repentence?

It is a tragedy that such a lively, caring and faith filled person should have been struck down in such a way. We are praying for her friends and family at this tragic time. However, CMJ will continue to share the gospel with the Jewish people and to work for forgiveness and reconciliation in Israel. This is a mandate that God gave us 201 years ago and we are confident that the best epitaph we could give Kristine is to continue to that to which she was totally committed to supporting.
www.cmj.org.uk...

Will they get kicked out of Israel, because

Caveats of the Knesset Christian Allies Caucus

The caucus condemns and refuses alliances with any groups that pursue the conversion of Jews to Christianity.
www.knesset.gov.il...

Will the US State Dept accept what ever Israel says, without pursuing any other investigation?

There does seem to be different kinds of Christians. One believes it takes more than just being a Jew in a certain chunk of land to be right with God. Another thinks all the Jews need is to be on a chunk of land with big military, non-Jews expelled or killed, from border to border as written in an old book. Different Christianities I think. How many people must die to satisfy that second kind?

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Expat888
Theyre all insane.. All life holds value .. NOTHING in this world worth killing or dying for.. Fools and Idiots think violence and killing solve problems..

AND

When a Fool and or Idiot thinks he/they could and will take your life or family members lives with violence would you use deadly force to prevent them?

I would.

When every man, woman and child starts walking around with a halo then I'll relax.

Were born.. We live.. We die.. What matters is what we do with the time were here.. I prefer to spend mine helping those who need it and have done so.. If its my time to die then so be it thats life . Will move on to the next life in peace knowing I did what could to help others without taking the life of another human being.. And yes have at times been in situations like that due to helping others and am still around karma neh..

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Expat888

Theyre all insane.. All life holds value .. NOTHING in this world worth killing or dying for.. Fools and Idiots think violence and killing solve problems..

But if all life holds value, and life is threatened, isn't standing up for life something which could result in death? Not exactly insane. Almost seems unavoidable.

Who all do you include in "Theyre all insane?"

I admit that view things from a buddhist viewpoint.. Yes the potential to die is present at times like that.. Its also present from the time were born due to natural causes, accidents, disasters etc.. Theres always risk to life regardless what one does or doesnt do.. Rather than worry over dying I do what can to help those who I see in need to try and make the world better rather than add to the misery in the world by taking the life of another. Am still around been shot, hit with shrapnel and even stabbed during 4 tours in vietnam didnt carry weapon - refuse to . Carried my surgical tools and medical supplies only. even in the years since travelling and providing medical care to those in need never carried a weapon and never will. Theres always better ways to solve problems without using violence.. As to fools and idiots am refer to people too blinded by propaganda, religion, greed and all the other idiotic reasons humans slaughter each other for no reason..

I'd die for Israel, if I had to make a choice.
There are many, many unfair and wrong things, but ultimately it's a solid modern state.
I hope they never hand over power like white South Africa did.
This hate crime proves that some are fundamentalist, racist people stuck in medieval times.
I prefer a country with gay rights, and I will criticize it, but never stop supporting it as such.

Christians
before you all become martys for israel, first take a trip to israel. were you will be spat at and abused by our nice jewish friends. Dont forget to that to our nice jewish friends that you are nothing but an animal there to be used and abused by `gods chosen` some say people. I say assholes....

Originally posted by illuminnaughty
Christians

before you all become martys for israel, first take a trip to israel. were you will be spat at and abused by our nice jewish friends. Dont forget to that to our nice jewish friends that you are nothing but an animal there to be used and abused by `gods chosen` some say people. I say assholes....

What Israels fail to realize is that they to are Christians and Christians Israelis. We are all Jewish and experience the same as eachother.

We are all positive people in learning. The sooner all religions realize this the better. Jesus died on the cross representing positive energy for this reason.

The Romans knew this information which is why the sacrificed people on the cross of positive energy. Internally we are all beautiful, loving people but are mislead by what the world has to offer us.

Even Israel will bow to the true God of us all!

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yes,I would use deadly force to protect myself
and my family.I am not going to cower to anyone.
But,if someone puts a gun to my face and demands
I deny Jesus/Yeshua,I won't deny the Saviour.

Originally posted by Expat888
Were born.. We live.. We die.. What matters is what we do with the time were here.. I prefer to spend mine helping those who need it and have done so.. If its my time to die then so be it thats life . Will move on to the next life in peace knowing I did what could to help others without taking the life of another human being.. And yes have at times been in situations like that due to helping others and am still around karma neh..

I myself have been in those situations as well....

So your assumption here is that becuase one would refuse to sit by and watch a loved one [Mother/Child/Wife] being murdered that they are incapable of helping others or living a just or honorable life? I've read many members here mention a similar stance while saying the same thing. I wonder how many of them are parents? From my experiences, very few parents would just sit and watch as someone murdered their child. Perspectives change with age, experiences and obligations.


From the earliest possible evidence in human history found thus far. There have been tools and weapons. Weapons for hunting as well as for defense. If the majority of humans had that attitude I highly doubt that we as a species would have made it this far IMO.