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Chasing devils leads good people into hell (Dangers of Gnosis)

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posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by Tayesin
reply to post by kallisti36
 

Hi,

I'm enjoying reading your responses, thank you.

You also raised an interesting point that I've been looking at for some time.....


If Ya'hshuah were a gnostic teacher, why did he claim to be of YHWH and not of Enki?


I think there are a couple of things worth mentioning. One being that by the time of Yeshua the Indoctrination had been in full swing for Millenia so the name of God known to man at the time, in that area of the world, would have been YHWH... via the Hebrew tradition.

Secondly, and I know this upsets quite a few.. I seriously think Yeshua was talking about a different God to the one of his forefathers... think about it.....

The OT God is a sickening, despicable Thing in the form of a Bi-pedal Humanoid Being, filled with hatreds for all things except those who worship him above all else... which is very Egotistically Human of course. And so this sounds exactly like Enlil who has the exact same Behaviours and Attributes in the exact same timeframes of reference.

And this historical, Physical God is wholly different to the Universal style of a God Yeshua speaks about. The two are poles apart. He speaks of a Loving, Spiritual God we can each have personal communion with... although the following control drama begun by Saul who became Paul insured we don't/can't to this day. Well, not in a very real, very direct way that is.

This style of God is much closer to the Gnostic concept of a Divine Energy that permeates the Cosmos as well as out form.. something we are portions of as opposed to Under the Order Of in the case of the Genesis Physical God.

Apologies if this is disjointed, I had visitors and then teenagers in between starting and finishing this post



The Gnostics believe the Gospel of John to be superior to all other gospels, but the author of John also wrote Revelations in which Ya'hshuah is very anti-Babylon saying that it is the habitation of devils and from which will arise the Kingdom of the Beast.


I've often wondered in what state of mind John was in when on Patmos and recording his Revelations. We know that stale brown breads in old times would grow a mould that is akin to '___', and his visions seem like the generalised type of things we may expect from someone under the influence of '___'. And so I ask the question yet get no definitive response because the Follower want to Believe, and the detractors want to gain mileage for their own causes.

What say you?


You see, my issue with gnosticism as opposed to mainstream Christianity is that Gnostics as their name implies, believe they have knowledge others don't. You can easily make the claim that Christians and Jews have been indoctrinated, because it has happened with religion before, but how do you know that the Gnostics aren't indoctrinated? Most scholars believe the Gnostic gospels to be considerably younger than John and the synoptic Gospels. This is still speculation, and in the end it boils down to preference. Ya'hshuah in the Gospel of Thomas implies that salvation is attained through hidden knowledge. I find this to be elitist and out of character of the Ya'hshuah of the Synoptics and John. I also don't agree with the Gnostic concept of duality between Good and Evil. I hold to the arguably naive belief that evil is not equal to good and good will triumph in the end. Furthermore, the Gnostic (not mainstream gnostic as far as I know) practice of attaining balance by doing an equal amount of good and evil deeds and the practice of exorcising your fleshly desires by being as hedonistic as possible are spiritual poison in my opinion. I believe that Gnosticism came about as man's answer to why YHWH was so demanding and harsh. "What may seem right to man is not right to God" not saying that you should blindly follow, but have you considered that YHWH and the Israelites were harsh, violent, and strict because they had to be; because that is what the time called for? By the time of the last prophets of the OT, you will notice that YHWH has calmed down, crimes are punished less harshly, and the Prophets speak of hope instead of punishment. Israel and Judah are in relatively stable states before becoming a Roman vassal and even then aren't facing the same challenges they had centuries ago. Babylon is fallen, Medo-Persia is fallen, Greece is fallen, and Rome is a shadow looming over the future. The Canaanites have been defeated and the only problem the Israelites face is inner division. Now, people speak of the coming Messiah and YHWH is gentler. Then Ya'hshuah comes and speaks of a new way of life, how to truly live as YHWH intended us to. He preaches to Jew and Gentile, but is ultimately rejected by his people and killed. He rose from the dead and gave his apostles the power to minister to the world. Yes I even count the much maligned Paul amongst these apostles, were it not for Paul the message would not have spread like it did (though I regard the gospels as superior to Acts and the epistles). While the Jews were scattered after a failed rebellion (following a popular false messiah I might add) the early Christians were spreading the word like wildfire through the Mediterranean and beyond. You can see something supernatural in the spread of Christianity. For the most part, religions tend to stay localized to their culture (like Judaism which is 1% of the World population and this includes reform Jews which are practically non-theistic), but not Christianity; it is in every corner of the globe.

David fortold of a rock that would smash the feet of the empire statue in Nebuchednezzar's dream, the rock would then cover the whole world. The rock is the Kingdom of God. Judaism has not accomplished this, but Christianity has. You see, no longer must the children of YHWH kill and be subjugated by the horrible empires of this world, we have the word and the word is everywhere. Even if there is a Satanic Conspiracy, the children of YHWH surround them and even if we are lead astray (as we often are) and lose our numbers till we are but a remnant, we still have the Most High on our side.

As for John eating ergot infested bread... well maybe, but you will notice that almost every scripture of prophecy (Daniel, Ezekiel, Enoch, Revelations) you will notice recurring themes as well as a common trippyness. The reason for this is that nearly all of them have seen heaven. You don't just go away from that making sense in the mundane world. Also, I have experimented with psychadelics and let me tell you, I have never seen Heaven, the throne of YHWH, Sheol, the Cherubim (really really weird), or the Messiah with a flaming double edged sword protruding from his mouth. I've never done '___' though and I've read interesting experience reports of Ayahuasca that did involve meeting a very vivid Ya'hshuah. This is beside the point, because John had no access to '___' containing plants living in the Middle East.
edit on 22-12-2010 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 01:19 AM
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I really enjoyed this. It had me chasing devils on google tho,the very thing you warn of.

I googled the reptillians, I wouldnt be suprised if they were in the top of the government.

Why? you ask. A reptillian can change its color and form to fit in any crowd.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 01:36 AM
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I also like your thread for another reason, I have read the new testament and the last half of the old. And sometimes I look on the internet to see the lies people are fed,and the lies would lead a person to believe satan is jesus.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by whipsandchainsamerica
I also like your thread for another reason, I have read the new testament and the last half of the old. And sometimes I look on the internet to see the lies people are fed,and the lies would lead a person to believe satan is jesus.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here, but I'll assume you aren't for the moment. Many people are under the impression that the Lucifer passage in Isaiah is referring to Satan's fall, it isn't. Lucifer is a bad latin translation of "dawn star; son of the morning" which was the title of the megalomaniacal king of Babylon. Satan tried to usurp the Most High in a similar way, which is why this misconception continues. He also "masquerades as an angel of light" so the comparison isn't too out of place. I prefer not to refer to him as Lucifer, because of the parallels between the name and Promethius. Satanists love to present Satan as the "Light Bearer", "the one who stole fire for the people". What absolute garbage. He played our egos like a fiddle and we are none the better in our knowledge of evil and how best to commit it.

Ya'hshuah takes on the title of morning star in Revelation, for a different reason. Venus (the dawn star) is only seen at dawn and dusk. It rises highest just before dawn, which is when it is darkest. Ya'hshuah is a herald of the coming dawn of the Kingdom of God. When things are darkest and the Beast has power, we will remember and that will be our light in those dark times, because we will know that the Kingdom of God draws nigh.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:33 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


Im not bieng sarcastic,i really enjoyed it. I wondered why people said the morning star was lucifer,because i knew jesus is morning star.

I also brought this up because i looked at the satan wiki and for some reason they listed some "facts" about him,that are not in any bible. I just reread it so i could quote them but I could not find them. But any way the people that get all their information from the internet could and are bieng easily mislead. By satan himself?



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 05:44 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 

Hi,

This might take a while


You asked..


You see, my issue with gnosticism as opposed to mainstream Christianity is that Gnostics as their name implies, believe they have knowledge others don't. You can easily make the claim that Christians and Jews have been indoctrinated, because it has happened with religion before, but how do you know that the Gnostics aren't indoctrinated?


I understand your feeling about "believe they have knowledge others don't". That's always been part of any form of Mystery School, for want of better words. Even the inner circles within Christian sects rely on this Mystique "drama", as I think of it. Drama to me being anything used to hide, usurp, undermine, waylay, divert and otherwise control the individual's personal ability to commune directly with our source so that one does not wake up from this controlled 'Dream' we call Life in the World.

Because of this I also find a problem with all Belief-Systems on offer, including the new-age Industry. None of them actually offer tools that quickly beckon direct and real communion without requiring one attaches themselves to an Edifice that has inherent Limitations to what is acceptable, possible, probable or Valid according to it's own self-supporting rhetoric. Even then, one does not find those simple tools that easily brings real, direct communion.

Indoctrination: I should have offered my perception of this word and it's application before using it in discussion. Sorry.

It's not indoctrinated in a sense that's limited only to religion, but moreso the Cultural Indoctrination we all undergo from our birth. As Christianity is the core structure to our Western Culture, we are all indoctrinated to fit into a Comfortable Range of Diversity. This is so for each culture that ever drew breath.

The problem with this process of Moulding to fit one culture is, it automatically closes doors to anything that may exist outside it's own limitations... this is what I call the Boundary to the Belief-System. The point at which it is no longer Relevant.

This isn't unusual for we humans, we think far too small ALL the time.. even when we think or Believe we are being Lateral and Learning we are still confined to limitations we have already set as the Standard. In essence, we are infants in the vastness of what exists in our universe. We apply human attributes and behaviours to our Gods, we constantly Assume things to be as we Expect, based on our Indoctrination Process. Hardly ever do we rise up out of that programming.. to do so is to set yourself Against the World.

Interestingly enough the Druid had a maxim along those lines.. "Truth, against the World". It says everything we need to know.

You said...


Ya'hshuah in the Gospel of Thomas implies that salvation is attained through hidden knowledge. I find this to be elitist and out of character of the Ya'hshuah of the Synoptics and John. I also don't agree with the Gnostic concept of duality between Good and Evil. I hold to the arguably naive belief that evil is not equal to good and good will triumph in the end.


Yes. In the times of Yeshua, in his Culture, there was a system of understanding called Pesher. As you may well know, it is part of the "mystery school" of the day where Yeshua would offer parables/stories, but before he did he stated, "For those with ears to hear...eyes to see.." I understand with this he was saying, "For those who understand Pesher, listen well, I will tell you something." This Pesher had multiple understandings and even gave directions to various places that a pleb would not understand, equally as much as he would only hear a story instead of the Teaching.

And I agree, it is irking to say the least but it gives an excellent insight into what other 'mysteries' or 'order' he and his people, family, Followers may have been members of. As is fairly well known there many sects, groups, orders in those days.. some of which could be classed as terrorist by today's standards.

It would seem to me that the real reason behind the murder of this Man, is that he threatened to rock the Boat of the Establishment. If he held keys to direct communion this would threaten his Culture's entire base and future, hence they needed to remove him quickly. I see it this way because I see Yeshua as a man of his times, yet ahead of his times as an Awakened Human that was aware of his Legacy, so to speak. And thus the legacy of all Humans.

Oops, I digressed again.

This may sound silly, but... the reason he may have had Hidden Knowledge is because for all human history we have looked Externally for God.. thus the Divine Spark within all of us could be considered "Hidden". (?)

Something I railed against for many years when my old mentor mentioned it to me was the concept of .. Not throwing pearls before Swine. I though it was a very derogatory way to speak about other human beings, and had an unbalanced ego type feeling to it's connotations. But, many years later I find it means that most people simply cannot see something that is Too Simple because they expect Complexity due to their Indoctrination.

This means you can show them how to reach communion easily with our source/god, but they will not understand the fullness of it, nor appreciate it for it costing them nothing, and most stop practicing it in order to continue their external Search. Sad but True nonetheless.

Duality: Tricky thing isn't it?

Duality doesn't necessarily imply Equality. Although I personally experience it such.. shining light into my own darkness reveals the whole of myself to me.. if I am honest with myself. Another silly sounding thing to say huh?

We may consider this Duality to be a Spectrum, much like everything else we could possibly perceive. We could label one end of this spectrum as Good.. and the other end as Evil.. and everything in between is what we observe in this world around us.

Thus it isn't Either/Or, but simply a spectrum of wholeness. What sets one apart from another is the Choices we make in each moment. Some people are learning Mastery of Self, others are still experiencing Reaction as their life. And interestingly enough it is Awareness in each moment that makes the perceptional difference to make more effective choices.

Going way out on a limb here.... I perceive Duality as only part of the mechanism being employed in the supporting stages and the phsycial stages of this and other worlds working on the "Duality Experience".

You still with my ranting? I hope so


So, to me we experience Good and Evil because it is part of the Experience we Souls chose to have Here.. now I know many have a problem with the thought of Souls actually Choosing anything. But my experience shows me that nothing is ever forced upon us by some 'Higher Power'.. despite how we may perceive it while in physical Life.

Sorry too for using new-agey type speak, it's just that those words are more effective than others to get an idea across.

Paul... I don't like the man personally. I think he usurped control from "James" and was the first to pass comment on Yeshua being God's only Son, despite Yeshua telling us in Thomas and other books that it is we who are the Sons of the Living Father. I also think Paul was first cab off the rank with the apparent Virgin-Birth and Resurrection.. imagine the effect on Plebs of the day hearing such Amazing Tales about a Man!! They would have been wanting to convert in droves from their partially dead Faith... hence the church would grow quickly and become steadily more powerful.. just as it has these past 2,000 years or so.

But a lot of people don't like the way I think
It's too far outside The Indoctrinated Comfort Zone.

And yes, I think too in those days there were a number of Healers and a number of people hoping to be recognised as the Messiah. The Hebrew's Messianic Legacy really set things up for many false prophets through the ages.

You said..



You can see something supernatural in the spread of Christianity. For the most part, religions tend to stay localized to their culture (like Judaism which is 1% of the World population and this includes reform Jews which are practically non-theistic), but not Christianity; it is in every corner of the globe.


Supernatural.. No. Very human? Yes. How best to insure your Religion becomes the One Religion in the world? Convert the Plebs in every corner.. even cause some of them to only produce offspring for God. to bolster the church numbers, etc. Conversion for the longest time was not a nice play to be in... the Sword was most often the Tool of Choice for converting Plebs. Convert at the sword or die was an easy choice for most people to make.

All these years later of course we see none of that. But, the groundwork was already laid and passive means were employed to continue the growth from within the already converted. We still see Religion being spread through every possible avenue available to man..... we also see the alternatives being pushed just as hard.

You said..



David fortold of a rock that would smash the feet of the empire statue in Nebuchednezzar's dream, the rock would then cover the whole world. The rock is the Kingdom of God.


My first teacher told me a story that is similar.. but it's Moral is different.....

Long ago... blah blah.. a man stood atop a high mountain. In his hands he held a massive and beautiful Gem. One small stumble over the rocks caused him to drop this Gem. It smashed into millions of fragments that spread far and wide. Every person who found a piece called out to others "Look at my beautiful Gem!! I have the geatest perfect Gem, it is better than yours"

Yet each only had one small part of the original, Beautiful, Perfect Gem.

Hence we can find small Gems under all the man-made Edifices that hides them from view.

You said..



As for John eating ergot infested bread... well maybe, but you will notice that almost every scripture of prophecy (Daniel, Ezekiel, Enoch, Revelations) you will notice recurring themes as well as a common trippyness. The reason for this is that nearly all of them have seen heaven. You don't just go away from that making sense in the mundane world. Also, I have experimented with psychadelics and let me tell you, I have never seen Heaven, the throne of YHWH, Sheol, the Cherubim (really really weird), or the Messiah with a flaming double edged sword protruding from his mouth.


Yes.. I agree totally. When one experiences the heavenly realms it is near impossible to convey its true feel and sight to those who have not had the experience themselves. Plus, in those days I think there were less evolved Concepts of Possibility that were highly restrictive to convey any real meaning.

The "7 heavens" are real, but not in the sense that we have been led to believe they are. They exist as Layers of Awareness above our limited physical realm, they are easy to enter and experience. One thing I found that blocks us from doing so is.. what we Believe about ourselves and everything.... those Indoctrinated Limitations.

I'm not surprised you did not see those things in your experimentation phase. You are a modern human being with modern concepts of reality that are vastly more expansive and complex than John was privy to in his Times. Not saying people do not see what they Believe they Should see.. they do in many circumstances. Also not saying anything derogatory in your not seeing those things.. but I found in my experimentation phase that Fun was the directive within my experiences.. some part of me was always fully aware of where I was and what I was doing.. that annoyed me when I was after the full tilt Trip.. I got them.. but the Observer in me was not effected. I felt short-changed.


May I say I find you a breath of fresh air. I like your mind and earnestness.. and especially your openness to being honest. Thank You.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 06:04 AM
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Originally posted by kallisti36

Originally posted by pirhanna
What a load of complete nonsense regarding gnostic ideas. Go study what it's about then come back and post something that isn't completely based upon purposeful twisting, outright lies and rubbish.

I don't mean to be so cross, but when you attack others faith you better well get your facts straight and you didn't.
This isn't about Gnosticism, though the concept of Yahweh being the demiurge is common among these people. I was referring to Gnosis as 'hidden knowledge' and how God is simple and Satan is deliberately confusing and complex.


The reason why they have the'hidden knowledge' was because Christianity forced them to hide, those poor people were burned at the stakes and tortured because they didn't follow the Christian way. How many Gnosis tried to convert you today, I'll tell you the answer none! Why? Because Gnosis is about people who are searching for the truth and only those people will find the true meaning of their existence. Through meditation we can find out our will, and why we are really here! Through meditation we can find God! All of the stuff you referenced in the begining is all symbolism, the snake btw represents knowledge. The Egyptians wore a snake on their heads, not because they were Reptillians, (which btw do not exist!), but because through meditation they were given knowledge about everything! the snake is not necessarily bad.

Please do more research and stay away from the hate filled Christians, there time is coming!



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by mysticalzoe

Originally posted by kallisti36

Originally posted by pirhanna
What a load of complete nonsense regarding gnostic ideas. Go study what it's about then come back and post something that isn't completely based upon purposeful twisting, outright lies and rubbish.

I don't mean to be so cross, but when you attack others faith you better well get your facts straight and you didn't.
This isn't about Gnosticism, though the concept of Yahweh being the demiurge is common among these people. I was referring to Gnosis as 'hidden knowledge' and how God is simple and Satan is deliberately confusing and complex.


The reason why they have the'hidden knowledge' was because Christianity forced them to hide, those poor people were burned at the stakes and tortured because they didn't follow the Christian way. How many Gnosis tried to convert you today, I'll tell you the answer none! Why? Because Gnosis is about people who are searching for the truth and only those people will find the true meaning of their existence. Through meditation we can find out our will, and why we are really here! Through meditation we can find God! All of the stuff you referenced in the begining is all symbolism, the snake btw represents knowledge. The Egyptians wore a snake on their heads, not because they were Reptillians, (which btw do not exist!), but because through meditation they were given knowledge about everything! the snake is not necessarily bad.

Please do more research and stay away from the hate filled Christians, there time is coming!
Oh don't worry, I do stay away from the hate filled 'Christians'. The Albigensian Crusade against the Gnostic Cathars was anti-Christian; those murderers had no consept of their Christ.

I find Gnosticism to be elitist and deliberately confusing. It's a trait you will notice among Satanic groups as well. I believe the Gnostics to be decieved, not evil people who need to be purged of their heresy. The story of the serpent confusing Adam and Eve with false doctrines and practices is far older than Gnosticism and is the best evidence that the tongue of the serpent is in their ears. Gnostics are not knowingly lead astray by the 'Prince of Darkness' but he who 'masquerades as an angel of light'. Gnostics are usually disdainful of the orthodox form of Christianity and often neglect Biblical teachings or twist a new meaning out of them. If they were more aware of the teachings of the Bible and embodied them, they might be able to see through Gnostic texts and teachings and see from whom they come.

As for the Snake being a giver of knowledge rather than a deciever; don't you think that's what a deciever would want you to believe. Take a look at the Snake worshipping religions and you will see: ritual human sacrifice, orgies, and phallic worship. Sounds like Satan to me.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by Tayesin
 


Again, much of these teachings didn't arise until centuries after Christ. I do see what you mean about Paul usurping the mantle of religious leader from James the Just. For quite a while I thought following James the Just's example would lead me to a purer form of Christianity and I studied Messianic Judaism for a time. Still, like the many other congregations I'd tried, they had issues I couldn't get around. Common among the Messianic Jew groups is the JW-ish view that Ya'hshuah is not the son of God. They also treated the NT as an afterthought, which I thought was ridiculous, because Ya'hshuah is far and away the superior prophet. So, I decided to reconcile Paul and study his teachings a bit more. His teaching seem odd for a Pharisee especially since he seperates himself from Judaism. Some say this was a ploy to convert Gentiles with an easier Christianity that didn't have so many rules, but it seems out of character for a devout Jew to abandon the old law unless he was absolutely sure it was what YHWH wanted. Paul preached a New Covenant with adjusted law and relaxed prohibitions. Meanwhile James the Just was a Judaizer and was still preaching the old law. Here is the difference between Paul and James: Paul was the one having prophetic visions. Prophetic power is not inherited it is given, so James the Just without Prophetic power was without authority, despite being Ya'hshuah's brother. I think people should give the judgemend of the Apostles a little more credit; they followed Paul even though he had never met Ya'hshuah when he lived. Paul must have been pretty convincing.

I think it's interesting that you said Ya'hshuah called us all to be sons/daughters of God. I agree with you on this one. The only people in the Bible that are called Sons of God are direct creations. These direct creations would be Adam, Eve, Ya'hshuah, and the Angels. You will notice that Sons of God (Bena Elohim) appears twice in the OT here: Genesis Chapter 6: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the Earth and daughters were born unto them. Then the Sons of God saw that the daughter of men were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he is also flesh: yet his days shall be numbered one hundred and twenty years. There were giants in those days; and also after that, when the Sons of God came in with the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw the wickedness of man was great in the Earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" The common interpretation of this passage is that the Godly line of Seth interbred with the line of Cain and there were no good people left save Noah. This explanation is ridiculous when you see that only direct creations are referred to Sons of God (every human after Eve is a son of man). Here is a passage from Job Chapter 2: "Again there was a day when the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also amongst them to present himself before the Lord". This further proves that the Book of Enoch is correct in that the Bena Elohim are angels, and in these two passages are fallen angels. This is a hidden truth, but it doesn't take a guru or a rocket scientist to show that the religious establishments are hiding the truth of the fallen angels. Jubilees, also known as "Little Genesis" (also supressed) futher cements this truth and explains how the Nephilim (among their descenndents the long lived Nimrod) survived the flood and continued to lead the Earth astray for their imprisoned fathers. These are the NWO "Bloodlines" that everyone talks about. The leaders of the NWO are the direct descendents of the Fallen Angels and interbred so as not to lose the bloodlines among the masses (incest insues from Babylon to Europe). The connection between the Fallen Angels and the (enigmatic) Reptilians is not only made because of the Serpent (Satan) but because of the fallen Cherubim (Satan again). In Ezekiel, the Cherubim are desribed as one with the head of an eagle, a man, an ox, and a lion. These are four areas of the animal kingdom: the eagle is the avian part of the animal kingdom, man is humankind, the ox represents the domesticated animals, and the lion represents the wild animals. Something is missing, no? Where are the reptiles? Satan is referred to as the "Cherubim that covereth" in another passage in Ezekiel and he is also known as the serpent, so the reptile kingdom is not represented among the Cherubim, because Satan had fallen. Still, I believe any reptillian nature among the Satanic bloodlines to be more symbolic than anything else.

Anyway I digress into yet another rant about how Satan has attempted to corrupt scripture interpretations.

Now onto the other person referred to as the Son of God: Ya'hshuah. Ya'hshuah was unique in that he is the only person to be both Son of God and Son of Man. He even refers to himself as both in Gospels that don't speak of the virgin birth. In order to be both he would need to be born of God and man, which perfectly explains the virgin birth and discounts the theory that the Gospel of Luke added that in to get Greek converts. However, this is the point when Jehovah's Witnesses get confused, because they believe Ya'hshuah to be a direct creation but not a literal son or part of the Godhead. They are however conveniently ignoring the Gospel of John: "Believe me that I am (Yahweh in Hebrew; an obvious claim that he is YHWH) in the Father and the Father in me". This ties into the meaning of the call to be "born again". Alot of fundies get confused and think of it as turning over a new leaf and being filled with the Holy Spirit. It's a bit more metaphysical than that. Ya'hshuah is asking that we be born again of the Spirit and thus become direct creations of YHWH.
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posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 02:49 PM
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Gnostics arethose who wish to see god face to facre or die trying. There is no problem per se with such lofty asperations. The alternative is to accept the po faced ignorance that passes for orthodox religion. We must also forget that god hates the fotreigners and the enemy but loves the rich and the Establishment - if our current propaganda has any credence.

Anyone who has ever questioned the bible is well on the way to gnosticism. I think that the real issue is esotericism versus exotericism.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by tiger5
Gnostics arethose who wish to see god face to facre or die trying. There is no problem per se with such lofty asperations. The alternative is to accept the po faced ignorance that passes for orthodox religion. We must also forget that god hates the fotreigners and the enemy but loves the rich and the Establishment - if our current propaganda has any credence.

Anyone who has ever questioned the bible is well on the way to gnosticism. I think that the real issue is esotericism versus exotericism.
You can develop a personal relationship with God without adhereing to Gnostic ideologies. I can respect their wish to become closer with God, but I believe they are doing it wrong, because they believe our creator to be evil. The elite will manipulate religion to keep people from God, but they can only do this by perpetuating ignorance. All of the worst things committed in the name of 'Christianity' over the years are directly denounced by the word.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


Thank you. I always like to learn something new each day and today you have helped me reach this goal early in the day. Much appreciated as I see your study has been far deeper and more time-consuming than my own over the years.

I'm about to head away for 10 days.. yay... so just wanted to thank you for your time spent with me in conversation.

Be well friend.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36

Originally posted by tiger5
Gnostics arethose who wish to see god face to facre or die trying. There is no problem per se with such lofty asperations. The alternative is to accept the po faced ignorance that passes for orthodox religion. We must also forget that god hates the fotreigners and the enemy but loves the rich and the Establishment - if our current propaganda has any credence.

Anyone who has ever questioned the bible is well on the way to gnosticism. I think that the real issue is esotericism versus exotericism.
You can develop a personal relationship with God without adhereing to Gnostic ideologies. I can respect their wish to become closer with God, but I believe they are doing it wrong, because they believe our creator to be evil. The elite will manipulate religion to keep people from God, but they can only do this by perpetuating ignorance. All of the worst things committed in the name of 'Christianity' over the years are directly denounced by the word.


Gnostics do not belive god to be evil. Some sects may but to tar all gnostics withthe same brush is the equivalents of calling all fundamentalists to be Xtian. The elite's religion of choice for social manipulation is via the bible. It (the bible) represents a mass movement. The Elite will not use any religious movement that is too anarchic hence the gnostics are far too nonconformist and rightly so.

The issue is still esotericism versus exotericism.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by Tayesin
reply to post by kallisti36
 


Thank you. I always like to learn something new each day and today you have helped me reach this goal early in the day. Much appreciated as I see your study has been far deeper and more time-consuming than my own over the years.

I'm about to head away for 10 days.. yay... so just wanted to thank you for your time spent with me in conversation.

Be well friend.


Peace be unto you, friend. I hope you take what I have shared to heart.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by tiger5

Originally posted by kallisti36

Originally posted by tiger5
Gnostics arethose who wish to see god face to facre or die trying. There is no problem per se with such lofty asperations. The alternative is to accept the po faced ignorance that passes for orthodox religion. We must also forget that god hates the fotreigners and the enemy but loves the rich and the Establishment - if our current propaganda has any credence.

Anyone who has ever questioned the bible is well on the way to gnosticism. I think that the real issue is esotericism versus exotericism.
You can develop a personal relationship with God without adhereing to Gnostic ideologies. I can respect their wish to become closer with God, but I believe they are doing it wrong, because they believe our creator to be evil. The elite will manipulate religion to keep people from God, but they can only do this by perpetuating ignorance. All of the worst things committed in the name of 'Christianity' over the years are directly denounced by the word.


Gnostics do not belive god to be evil. Some sects may but to tar all gnostics withthe same brush is the equivalents of calling all fundamentalists to be Xtian. The elite's religion of choice for social manipulation is via the bible. It (the bible) represents a mass movement. The Elite will not use any religious movement that is too anarchic hence the gnostics are far too nonconformist and rightly so.

The issue is still esotericism versus exotericism.

I was referring to the mainstream Gnostic view that YHWH, the God of the Israelites, is the evil Demiurge who created the Earth as a prison. When it all boils down, this view is basically a very esoteric way of answering the question: "why is their so much suffering in the world?" and the answer boiled down is "God is a jerk". Still, I hadn't considered Gnostic offshoots who may disagree with the mainline fundamentals.

True Christianity, when you think about it, is not a very effective way for the evil elite to control people. If everyone followed the words of Ya'hshuah they would put their swords in pruning shears and lay down their arms. The elite would no longer be able to control because man would bow only to God and all of mankind would love one another unconditionally. If your rebellion is against the wordly establishments that make lives miserable may I remind you that YHWH's kingdom is not of this world. If your rebellion is against your creator who loves you unconditionally, then I beg you reconsider.

Also, read Tolstoy, for a more anarchic Christian view.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 



"Also, read Tolstoy, for a more anarchic Christian view."

What?? Tolstoy's life was that of a gnostic. He did not seem to have followed an esoteric path but Tolstoy was moving to question even the nature of human consciouness at the time of his death. Tolstoy seemd to crave a rural commune-based lifestyle

I am not sure but perhaps the blurring of the boundaries are occuring. If you are only sounding a bell against following the David Icke/ NWO? illuminati I can understand but. I find this area a waste of time and don't get me started on the Annunaki (lol). However if you are suggesting that because a few people crash and burn (as David Icke has) we should dumbly rely on church and Bible ( a dodgy document) and not explore consciousness well that is limiting humanity.

We must explore and come to our own individual conclussions.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by tiger5
 

That doesn't make him a gnostic. You seem to be mixing gnostic ideas with New Age ideas.
Yes, we should do soul searching to find our own conclusions, but you aren't going to find any truth alone. Nobody is enlightened by sitting around doing nothing (except Siddhartha, but he had a ton of experiences to ponder under that tree), you need some external truth. If God does exist and has defined characteristics such as YHWH only people who came to know him would have a true conclusion. Everyone else would be stumbling in the dark with only their internal 'eternal truths' that could be completely false for all they know.

What is your opinion on the Watchers/Annunaki? I've been over them in great depth, please share.

Your opinion that following the Bible is 'dumb' is just that, your opinion. Anyways, I'm not advocating a Sola Scriptura view here. I don't believe that the mysteries of life were all discovered thousands of years ago. I say that the Bible is a great starting point for a spiritual journey, because you will be aptly prepared and will be able to see through the decievers.

edit on 23-12-2010 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by The GUT
reply to post by Tayesin
 


And an interesting conversation and rather cool conversation between Sitchin and Monsignor Corrado

That is an interesting and rather disturbing view to be held by a 'Christian". This man within the Vatican is taking the position that the Watchers (incorrectly called Nephilim)/Annunaki live on the 12th planet common among 'UFOologists' like Icke. I can't believe that someone in the Vatican would put forward the claim that we were genetically engineered by the Annunaki who are shown in Enoch to be FALLEN ANGELS. If the Roman Church really does take this position then that would explain why they suppressed Enoch in the first place. The man is also preaching Biblical ignorance. Angels are always depicted in the Bible as having form, the Archangels and Messenger Angels are depicted as humanoid and the Cherubim as odd animal angel hybrids. DEMONS on the other hand are depicted as having no form. Infact the dissembodied spirits of the original Nephilim that died in the flood are described in Jubilees as causing harm to men and leading them astray.

I become increasingly gratefull each day that I am no longer Roman Catholic.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36

Originally posted by The GUT
reply to post by Tayesin
 


And an interesting conversation and rather cool conversation between Sitchin and Monsignor Corrado

That is an interesting and rather disturbing view to be held by a 'Christian". This man within the Vatican is taking the position that the Watchers (incorrectly called Nephilim)/Annunaki live on the 12th planet common among 'UFOologists' like Icke...

I become increasingly gratefull each day that I am no longer Roman Catholic.


Agreed. The only point I found interesting is that it finally it seems Sitchin was asking himself the question that alluded him for so long, "Well who created my aliens?" and given enough time might have grasped his illusive truth: The Holy Bible!

And I won't post it here, because it's a prime example of what you are talking about in this OP, although possibly revealing of part of Satan's overall plan--but there's a vid of Balducci, that is in my opinion, claiming some demons are not demons but our friends. SCARY!



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