oozyism's guide to constructive discussion

reply to post by imperium1984


My exact point! Thank You he dodges everything. OOzy why put all the anti-American rhetoric in a otherwise legit thread? I am waiting for the answer and will keep asking!

Also, you claim that:

"You are trying to counter his point, not his evidence which backs his point."

er. no. Actually, a debate/discussion addresses both the point and the evidence.

Proving that the evidence someone has for their point is false, then proves that their point is mere opinion and not seated in any fact.

Also, using opinion as evidence doesn't work. Saying "America is bad because they invaded Iraq for no legitimate reason" is your opinion (I'm not disagreeing with the point, nor am I agreeing with it). I'm simply saying that, to someone, there WAS a legitimate reason.

Legitimacy depends on your standpoint to the situation.

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by oozyism

 

I am discussing the first post you made & am asking you why you could not just make your point without all the anti american sentiment? Fair question you keep avoiding! Tell us what you really feel. legitimate question & on topic as it has to do with you have written. I can keep asking until I get a reply!

On topic and valid if the thread is a just front for more America bashing!

ZZZ

It is an example, how about you give us an example of how we should discuss a topic, make it pro US if you want.

My example states that one should concentrate on the point, or the evidence which backs the point.

why you could not just make your point without all the anti american sentiment?

Your point

My example is anti American sentiment.

Your evidence to back this point

???

What constitutes as anti American sentiment?

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by oozyism

 

I am discussing the first post you made & am asking you why you could not just make your point without all the anti american sentiment? Fair question you keep avoiding! Tell us what you really feel. legitimate question & on topic as it has to do with you have written. I can keep asking until I get a reply!

On topic and valid if the thread is a just front for more America bashing!

How about you post a productive response rather than personal insults.

How does that sound?

How about you post how we should discuss issues.

That is what the topic is about.

As I said in the OP itself, nonproductive discussion, you are the example.

You may fool people who don't know you Oozy, but everyone else sees right through you.


Why you need to bring it out in the open, is a conundrum however - But I'll just watch and see.

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by oozyism

 

I am discussing the first post you made & am asking you why you could not just make your point without all the anti american sentiment? Fair question you keep avoiding! Tell us what you really feel. legitimate question & on topic as it has to do with you have written. I can keep asking until I get a reply!

On topic and valid if the thread is a just front for more America bashing!

How about you post a productive response rather than personal insults.

How does that sound?

How about you post how we should discuss issues.

That is what the topic is about.

As I said in the OP itself, nonproductive discussion, you are the example.

There are no personal insults in that quote.

However, you are bordering on personal insults with the "you are the example" comment.

You really need to learn to think before you post.

Originally posted by imperium1984
Also, you claim that:

"You are trying to counter his point, not his evidence which backs his point."

er. no. Actually, a debate/discussion addresses both the point and the evidence.

I never denied that, read the whole OP, it might help you out.
I said if the evidence is uncertain, tell the individual the evidence is uncertain and leave it at that, or ask for other evidence.
If the evidence is true then instead of trolling, focus on the point.
If the evidence is false, then the point is false.

Proving that the evidence someone has for their point is false, then proves that their point is mere opinion and not seated in any fact.

Yeah, I know.

Also, using opinion as evidence doesn't work. Saying "America is bad because they invaded Iraq for no legitimate reason" is your opinion (I'm not disagreeing with the point, nor am I agreeing with it). I'm simply saying that, to someone, there WAS a legitimate reason.

Yes, that is when you debate the evidence, hence the evidence is "US invading Iraq without any legitimate reason".

Legitimacy depends on your standpoint to the situation.

Yes it does DUUH.. but we are talking about legitimacy and false reasons, which makes the evidence uncertain therefore it should be left alone and rather the "point" should be concentrated on.

Those who believe US had legitimacy and went to Iraq for rightful reasons, no one can change their mind, get it? So leave that alone, because neither side will budge in the sight of uncertainty.

Originally posted by badw0lf

You may fool people who don't know you Oozy, but everyone else sees right through you.


Why you need to bring it out in the open, is a conundrum however - But I'll just watch and see.

edit on 20/12/2010 by badw0lf because: (no reason given)

Another example of a nonproductive discussion

Thanks.

reply to post by oozyism

Your point My example is anti American sentiment. Your evidence to back this point ??? What constitutes as anti American sentiment?

Oh you make this oh so easy. Amateur reply!

Anti American statement No1

"America is bad"

Anti American statement No2

"America is bad because it invaded Iraq for no legitimate reasons (false reasons), and risked millions of lives in the process"

Anti American statements No3

I will lay the un-constructive counter first. An Example of un-constructive counter would be: ("Iraq was bad before US invaded and occupied it". ---->Choosing this one "You are a terrorist sympathizer for making such points" "You are anti-American and anti-Western not to mention anti-Semite" "You are an idiot")

OK the statements appear to be the opposite of what you usually say you give it a negative connotation by saying it is "un-constructive". This gives a negative impact on the otherwise Pro-American statements. You think we are really that silly we cannot see what you are trying to do?

Anti American statements No4

" US is bad"

Again more garbage but is still pushing your agenda through thought suggestion!

Anti American statements No5

Pointing out that Saddam was worse, is not constructive.

Again another attempt to use the power of suggestion. Just the implication of "Not constructive" & Saddam was worse" is further pushing your disgusting Anti - US Agenda!

Do I need to go on? You have been well & truly smashed, debunked & embarrassed on this one. Again it is an attempt to push anti-american propaganda in an otherwise legit thread! Tut Tut Tut

reply to post by oozyism


You just agreed with my point that countered what you wrote!

HAHAHHAHAAHAA!

You really are special.

Originally posted by imperium1984
reply to post by oozyism

 

You just agreed with my point that countered what you wrote!

HAHAHHAHAAHAA!

You really are special.

Did you read the OP?

Read it again.

Another point for productive discussions

Primary: Reading the OP

Secondary: Pressing reply

First you read the OP, then press reply, you don't reply before even pressing the OP :shk:

Originally posted by Crutchley29
oozyism is the WORST poster on ATS by a long shot, even in a forum of conspiracy theories he's the master at fear mongering and seems to harbor an intense hatred towards the US

Yeah but he has spunk... and spunk is enough.

Here you go ooz. You're an honorary conspiracy member. I hope it fits.
Happy Holidays.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1046b97fd138.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by oozyism


Someone else who got you!. Oh man you have been smashed again! This thread is a classic! lol to you oozy! Everybody can see that this thread is just a front to express racial hatred against the US!! And not about how to post & be constructive!tut tut tut!

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by oozyism


Those were all examples, any one who read the op can see that, nice try though.

Never had to post the OP all over again for a while now.

I will put the important points which I want you to read in yellow, enjoy

Introduction

A huge number of new members have joined ATS, I think it is important to set up a guide to constructive discussion.

Many threads have been trolled, spammed and completely diverted and have become useless considering objectivity.

To change that, I have created this thread to discuss how we can improve our discussion, to help us end threads with conclusions rather than uncertainty.

Point number1 (what is your point)

First you have to understand fully what your point is.

For example, "America is bad".

Point number2 (prove your point)

What do you have to support your point?

What evidence do you have which helped you come to this conclusion?

For example "America is bad because it invaded Iraq for no legitimate reasons (false reasons), and risked millions of lives in the process".

Point number3 (how to counter constructively)

How can you counter the above assertion constructively?

To help you differentiate between constructive and nonconstructive counter,

I will lay the un-constructive counter first.

An Example of un-constructive counter would be:
("Iraq was bad before US invaded and occupied it". ---->Choosing this one
"You are a terrorist sympathizer for making such points"
"You are anti-American and anti-Western not to mention anti-Semite"
"You are an idiot")
....

Why is the above nonconstructive counter? Because it takes the focus away from the original point, hence," US is bad".

Pointing out that Saddam was worse, is not constructive.

An example of a constructive counter would be to ask certain questions regarding the OP:
"Does US invading Iraq for illegitimate reasons, make US bad?"
"Is US defined by just one small portion of history"?
"Is US defined by just one action?"
"How can US be bad if it is also good?"

You are trying to counter his point, not his evidence which backs his point.

-If the evidence is clearly false, then it is understandable to concentrate on the evidence rather than the point.
-If the evidence is uncertain, tell him how the evidence is uncertain, and leave it at that, or ask him for other evidence which backs his point.
-If the evidence is true, concentrate on the point, rather than the evidence.

Point number4 (If evidence backing his point is true)

If it is true, then concentrate on the point, rather than trying to divert attention.

For Example, "Yes US invaded Iraq for illegitimate reasons, but does that make the U.S. bad"?

For Example, "US has taken a lot of actions which are regarded as good, does that mean US is good using the same logic?"

Point number5 (conclusion)

1. If the opposition is correct, that US also has good qualities, along side the bad ones, then the point of the OP is flawed, and the discussion has come to a conclusion (even if the evidence is true).

In the above sense, the conclusion is, that yes US has done wrong, but that doesnt make the US wrong, the world is not black and white. In the same manner, US has done right, but that doesnt make the US right, the world is not black and white.

----------------------------------------------------

Add your thoughts regarding a constructive discussion which doesn't lead to the path of trolling, spamming, clear off-topicism etc.

What are we suppose to take in to consideration when we are discussing an issue?

The point?

The evidence backing the point?

etc

Thanks for your patience

read the OP again, I'm sure it will help you see what I'm talking about.

I can see a lot of people have difficulties with reading and understanding. I see a lot of ego-complexes of a generation raised by tv and computergames...in this thread alone.

It's amazing that, even though you speak the same language, people will go out of their way to not understand you. On a site with a motto: Deny ignorance! This is extremely ironic.

You have people that have lived a comfortable life say to refugees to return to the place they fled. This is extremely insulting and it is the exact opposite of denying ignorance, it is encouraging it. Ever stopped to think that there are specific reasons as to why this is not possible? I just hope for those saying these things that they never have to flee the place they were born for valid reasons. Or how about the people who are saying that a person should get out of a country where they flagship freedom of speech for expressing his views?

I think you overvalued the computing capabilities of certain of posters here Ooz. When people are hellbent on disagreeing with you it is best to simply ignore them, since one ignorant post in a thread is better than a dozen.

Ah well...

Originally posted by imperium1984
this guy gives me a headache.

Did you finally read the OP

reply to post by oozyism


lol lol lol. You have been smashed to the point where you had to edit the original post. lol lol lol. The point being you only changed it because you were caught out! lol lol. Your real intention was to spread anti american propaganda and hide it. just so every one can see what you posted here it is below

Introduction A huge number of new members have joined ATS, I think it is important to set up a guide to constructive discussion. Many threads have been trolled, spammed and completely diverted and have become useless considering objectivity. To change that, I have created this thread to discuss how we can improve our discussion, to help us end threads with conclusions rather than uncertainty. Point number1 (what is your point) First you have to understand fully what your point is. For example, "America is bad". Point number2 (prove your point) What do you have to support your point? What evidence do you have which helped you come to this conclusion? For example "America is bad because it invaded Iraq for no legitimate reasons (false reasons), and risked millions of lives in the process". Point number3 (how to counter constructively) How can you counter the above assertion constructively? To help you differentiate between constructive and nonconstructive counter, I will lay the un-constructive counter first. An Example of un-constructive counter would be: ("Iraq was bad before US invaded and occupied it". ---->Choosing this one "You are a terrorist sympathizer for making such points" "You are anti-American and anti-Western not to mention anti-Semite" "You are an idiot") .... Why is the above nonconstructive counter? Because it takes the focus away from the original point, hence," US is bad". Pointing out that Saddam was worse, is not constructive. An example of a constructive counter would be to ask certain questions regarding the OP: "Does US invading Iraq for illegitimate reasons, make US bad?" "Is US defined by just one small portion of history"? "Is US defined by just one action?" "How can US be bad if it is also good?" You are trying to counter his point, not his evidence which backs his point. -If the evidence is clearly false, then it is understandable to concentrate on the evidence rather than the point. -If the evidence is uncertain, tell him how the evidence is uncertain, and leave it at that, or ask him for other evidence which backs his point. -If the evidence is true, concentrate on the point, rather than the evidence. Point number4 (If evidence backing his point is true) If it is true, then concentrate on the point, rather than trying to divert attention. For Example, "Yes US invaded Iraq for illegitimate reasons, but does that make the U.S. bad"? For Example, "US has taken a lot of actions which are regarded as good, does that mean US is good using the same logic?" Point number5 (conclusion) 1. If the opposition is correct, that US also has good qualities, along side the bad ones, then the point of the OP is flawed, and the discussion has come to a conclusion (even if the evidence is true). In the above sense, the conclusion is, that yes US has done wrong, but that doesn't make the US wrong, the world is not black and white. In the same manner, US has done right, but that doesn't make the US right, the world is not black and white. ---------------------------------------------------- Add your thoughts regarding a constructive discussion which doesn't lead to the path of trolling, spamming, clear off-topicism etc. What are we suppose to take in to consideration when we are discussing an issue? The point? The evidence backing the point? etc Thanks for your patience oz

Don't be fooled by the back peddling! he has just been caught!!!!! lol lol lol - Beaten you yet again - You had to concede lol

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by imperium1984
this guy gives me a headache.

Did you finally read the OP

How does that have anything at all to do with the fact that your small-mindedness causes me to have a headache. And after learning what I just learned about you, I refuse to engage with you any further.

Originally posted by Zamini
I can see a lot of people have difficulties with reading and understanding. I see a lot of ego-complexes of a generation raised by tv and computergames...in this thread alone.

It's amazing that, even though you speak the same language, people will go out of their way to not understand you. On a site with a motto: Deny ignorance! This is extremely ironic.

You have people that have lived a comfortable life say to refugees to return to the place they fled. This is extremely insulting and it is the exact opposite of denying ignorance, it is encouraging it. Ever stopped to think that there are specific reasons as to why this is not possible? I just hope for those saying these things that they never have to flee the place they were born for valid reasons. Or how about the people who are saying that a person should get out of a country where they flagship freedom of speech for expressing his views?

I think you overvalued the computing capabilities of certain of posters here Ooz. When people are hellbent on disagreeing with you it is best to simply ignore them, since one ignorant post in a thread is better than a dozen.

Ah well...

The whole idea is to prove the OP through those individuals who are throwing insults and trolling the whole thread.

That is the point of the OP, and they are simply proving the fact that ATS actually does have a small problem which needs to be fixed.

I'm sure calm heads will prevail