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oozyism's guide to constructive discussion

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posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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HI Everybody! (hears "Hi Mr Lynexon" in return lol)

Today we are going to learn about how to constructively Discuss topics.

1. Regardless of whatever pre-assumed Stance you might have against whoever is opening the discussion (or against any member of the discussion), you never sit there and attack the person. This leads to off Topic discussions, and possibly, derailment of the thread.

Ex. OP: I think all Nazis are bad. They are bad because of the bad things they did to people.

Member 1: You are just a nazi hater, all you ever do is spread your anti-nazism everywhere. If you don't like nazis, just go off to some random place and just forget about all of the things nazis did to you.

Member 2: YOu are just a big anti-nazi. You may make people who don't know you think you aren't, but all you are is a big Anti-Nazi.

Member 3: Just give up and quit posting. You contradict yourself all the time and are the dumbest poster on the board. People like you are dumb and need to face reality.

The above example is not constructive discussion.

To constructively discuss the OP, here is an example of what you COULD do:

OP: I think all Nazis are bad. They are bad because of the bad things they did to people.

Member 1: While the things they did to people are bad, not all nazis were evil. Some were just doing what the head nazi said. So i have to disagree that not ALL Nazis were bad.

See. Instead of attacking the person, calling them an anti-nazi or just not even mentioning the Topic, member 1 discussed the topic and disagreed respectfully.

Then, there is just the good old fashioned, time-proven method of:

If you can't say anything nice (or at least quazi-respectful), don't say anything at all.

Thanks for reading this brief course/alternative thread translation.

AND, Just to Grow on, Here is a little thing that should be taken into account every time you post. It is always there, right below the Reply Button:

(Minimal posts that contribute nothing to the thread are subject to immediate removal.)

Thanks and, in the words of Mick Foley, Have A Nice Day!




posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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Oozi, care to respond to any of my posts?

I have remanied on topic the entire time, I assume that is why I was omitted from your lengthy response.

Also, I notice your signature. Take note readers, I told you that this thread would be used in such a manner.

(I really should head to the predicions area!)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by Gnarly
Let's debate something oozy. I know too many people on here don't understand how to do so. Maybe a real example of a debate would be better? What are some topics that don't need hardcore knowledge are you passionate about? I'm being cereal.


The negatives of the prison system outweighs the positives.

OR

The positives of the prison system outweighs the negatives.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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edit on 20-12-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Well, I'm not too sure how prison systems work, but we could discuss the laws that put you into prison, the effects of putting someone behind bars without concrete evidence, the whole ordeal with rape(as in someone just saying, "It's him!" and then they take him away), the death penalty. Or after getting out of prison, what being in prison makes others think about you, like potential employers or a bank you wanna get a loan from. Should we keep the cell structure how it is and just put everyone in there like it already is, or have multiple facilities where certain "crime doers" would go to, like if someone murdered someone, they would get stuck with people who have committed hardcore acts, or just someone getting caught with an ounce and having to do some time with other petty criminals.

I don't think we could just debate the positives and negatives of the prison system considering just how many there are. What about privatized institutes for mental health, rehabilitation and detention centers? Those are just like a prison.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by adigregorio
Oozi, care to respond to any of my posts?

I have remanied on topic the entire time, I assume that is why I was omitted from your lengthy response.

Also, I notice your signature. Take note readers, I told you that this thread would be used in such a manner.

(I really should head to the predicions area!)


Is this what you are talking about?



-Fake Topic Alert-
See what I mean, this threads intention is to "get back" at the people who disagree with the examples in the OP.


Your point is that this thread has intentions beyond its supposed intentions.

Your evidence is the choice of Example chosen.

Am I correct?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


IMHO, the prison system needs a revamp as it is all but Corporatized now. 60% of prisons are privately ran. To me, that is a racket when you can go to jail longer for having an OZ (lol irony) of mary jane than if you killed someone.

Instead of helping people with Drug addictions, we punish them, so they never get better and, should they be free again, will just want to use it still. However, if you put someone in rehab (costs less than imprisoning them for life), that person is more able to become a productive member of society again. We have a culture to where drug usage is a crime, so people will not go to rehab because of possible underlying fears of the criminal, AND SOCIAL, repercussions.

Ex. Someone is addicted to smack. They don't want people to know they are addicted because then he will be "just another smack user", so they will not try to get help from people to get off of it. Also, random smack using friend tells the person that they send you to jail if you go to rehab since you are caught admitting to a crime. Because of this, said person continues to use smack and gets busted and put in jail for 10-25 years. While in jail, said user goes crazy and kills someone OR gives Big Mack a wrong look and gets shanked, dying a needless death.

However, if we revamp the punishments for non-violent offenses on par with drug use (Larson or burglary will still be how they are now), said user will be more likely as he will be treated as someone with an ailment and not a "random smack user".

Was that constructive discussion?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Aye, this thread is "more than meets the eye".

That is the gist of my stance, the other posts provide the reasons behind it. (In addition to the very small portion you included)

Do you deny this? (This being the thread is "more than".) We can discuss the details in a minute...



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by Gnarly
 


How do private prisons make profits?

I'm sure it is not a non-profit organization.

The above being said, do their income increase if they have more inmates?

What do they do with their inmates?

Do they make them work?

Their has to be some form of income for a private prison, it just doesn't make sense to me.

The above being said, I just went to Google to do a little research and found the bad side of privatisation of prisons:




The national spotlight has focused recently on privatized prisons after two judges in Pennsylvania pled guilty to receiving kickbacks for finding young offenders guilty of minor charges. They accepted $2.6 million to send an estimated 5,000 juvenile offenders to privately owned prisons. The two judges held high ranking positions in overseeing the juvenile court system, which allowed them to work in tandem to convince the state to send youth to new detention centers owned and operated by the private prison firms PA Child Care and partner Western PA Child Care. The judges' ill deeds clearly demonstrated that private profits can drive injustice and costly inmate expansions, and how the lack of state oversight allowed the problem to persist for years.

www.progressivestates.org...

They were sent to prison for minor charges, the bribes they took summed up to 2.6 million.

Would this problem increase if privatization of prisons became more widespread?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by oozyism
 


Aye, this thread is "more than meets the eye".

That is the gist of my stance, the other posts provide the reasons behind it. (In addition to the very small portion you included)

Do you deny this? (This being the thread is "more than".) We can discuss the details in a minute...


Your whole claim is an assumption.

This thread is about a productive discussion.

I'm the author, I should know.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by adigregorio
Oozi, care to respond to any of my posts?

I have remanied on topic the entire time, I assume that is why I was omitted from your lengthy response.

Also, I notice your signature. Take note readers, I told you that this thread would be used in such a manner.

(I really should head to the predicions area!)


Sure, the sig could be A theme for A topic, but it isn't this topic, other people made it this topic.

But still (and i quote) "Prediction:~2015 US complete collapse~" could be a debate in it's self. Unless it's already happend on here then i'd liked to see it and decide if THAT was "constructive discussion".



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by Lynexon
 


I for one have a little difference stance on this issue.

I believe drug addicts shouldn't be sent to prison, I believe they should be sent for treatment.
--->
The solution revolves around the legalization of drugs.
Whether they are class A drugs, or class B drugs.

How would legalization help?

Legalization would help because it would bring the addicts out of the shadows.
Most addicts go to black markets to get their drugs, the government is not aware regarding the amount of drugs being used, by who?

If drugs are sold in the open markets, the above information can be collected.

Conclusion
- The money gathered by the government through tax can help improve the cure for addiction.
- While criminals who do crime due to drugs can easily be spotted and sent to rehabilitation centres rather than prisons where their situation would most likely worsen.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


I will ask you to respond to my posts directly, if you do not I will re post everything for fresh eyes.

I do not like dancing.

Do you deny that you break every rule you have set forth in the OPost?

If you do not deny that, then how can you not see that creating a thread instructing others to do something you do not do...

Furthermore, the OPost itself is unconstructive. Coupled with the above, the fact that you included the "loaded statements" in order to entrap the dissenters...

I have already shown at least 4 of the "new people" this, thanks guys for being level headed I know this thread is hot hot hot!

(Also, I have followed the OPost rules to a Tee. So when the "stick to the topic" starts, or "don't attack the poster" here is me saying those are lies.)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


While I didn't say privatized prisons, the link you posted does bring back a special I had watched on detention centers for youth that were privatized where kids who were went in for not even a month didn't come back for years.

I don't believe anything that is to help people should be private. Everything that isn't confidential should be made public. Transparency. I was coerced into a mental health institute that was privately owned, and because of that I actually got really into politics. From my experience and others experiences, I believe privatized institutes do not work out enough. The people should be able to make some rules considering it's the people who are going to have to be admitted into it.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by oozyism
 


I will ask you to respond to my posts directly, if you do not I will re post everything for fresh eyes.

I do not like dancing.

If you want to, I don't mind.



Do you deny that you break every rule you have set forth in the OPost?

Are you expecting me to deny that? I have broken many rules, I have even been banned, I for one move forward, learn from the past.



If you do not deny that, then how can you not see that creating a thread instructing others to do something you do not do...

Here is a fact, this thread has nothing to do with me. It is non-constructive to focus on the messenger rather than the message.

A Honest question:
Should I create a thread about me?



Furthermore, the OPost itself is unconstructive. Coupled with the above, the fact that you included the "loaded statements" in order to entrap the dissenters...

Clarify.



I have already shown at least 4 of the "new people" this, thanks guys for being level headed I know this thread is hot hot hot!





(Also, I have followed the OPost rules to a Tee. So when the "stick to the topic" starts, or "don't attack the poster" here is me saying those are lies.)

It would be great if at least now you post an example of how we should discuss an issue?
edit on 20-12-2010 by oozyism because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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Having read the Op, and the statement, there are a few things that you forgot to add in Ozzy, that you yourself have done in some of your other postings:
1) Do not go down to name calling or insulting. It is childish and often leads to a lack of credibility on the part of the person making the insults. Debate and argue the posting, for or against, not the person.
2) Use more than one source for supporting those arguments, backing them up with valid proof and evidence. Too many times it has been seen where it is one source, or even a known bias source that will often lead to a lack of discussion.
3) Have an open mind to accept that sometimes, the definition of an accepted term is just not what you would like it to be, and just maybe it may be wrong.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by sdcigarpig
Having read the Op, and the statement, there are a few things that you forgot to add in Ozzy, that you yourself have done in some of your other postings:

I will ask you a simple question, who hasn't? Every human being have the ability to learn from the past, if they want to.



1) Do not go down to name calling or insulting. It is childish and often leads to a lack of credibility on the part of the person making the insults. Debate and argue the posting, for or against, not the person.

Agreed. See how I don't focus on you, but rather focus on your message ?



2) Use more than one source for supporting those arguments, backing them up with valid proof and evidence. Too many times it has been seen where it is one source, or even a known bias source that will often lead to a lack of discussion.

Agreed.



3) Have an open mind to accept that sometimes, the definition of an accepted term is just not what you would like it to be, and just maybe it may be wrong.


For example?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
If you want to, I don't mind.

Here you go blatently disregarding the OPost! That's okay, I don't really need to point it out anymore. I just thought I would for old time sake.


Originally posted by oozyism
Are you expecting me to deny that? I have broken many rules, I have even been banned, I for one move forward, learn from the past.

I am taking this as a:

YES I Oozyism break the rules I set forth in the OPost of this thread, and even in the same thread.

Unless you say otherwise.

Now that you have admitted that you break, and are currently breaking, the rules you are telling everyone else to follow; I have one question. Did you even read the opening post?

Yes, yes you did. And that is the evidence that shows the real intent behind this thread, which I have already described. I will be including my first post in here as well so the readers can see what I am talking about. (And so they don't have to hunt for it. I am a friend to the lazy!)


Originally posted by oozyism
Here is a fact, this thread has nothing to do with me. It is non-constructive to focus on the messenger rather than the message.

So you made a thread to "trick" the posters. Like I said. You knew what would happen, so you did this. Isn't hoaxing against the rules?


Originally posted by oozyism
A Honest question:
Should I create a thread about me?

That would be really interesting to read, all it would do is show more anger though. Why not try to figure out why you hate America, instead of the US Government. After you get that one, you should really stop doing things like this thread. It is something the US Government would do, trickery.


Originally posted by oozyism
Clarify.

Will do, in the first post I made in the thread. Adding it at the end of this response.


Originally posted by oozyism

Can you explain how this is "constructive discussion" since you are now the resident expert?

(Copy and pasted after this point)

(Posted Earlier, re-posted due to others laziness...)
Alright, I have been following this thread since its creation.

Let me see if I can raise the curtain as to what is going on.

First off, I am a lurker mostly. While I read daily I do not log in daily, nor post daily. For the last week or so a member has caught my eye, Oozism here.

It was the pure hatred of me that caused me to notice this person. I mean they really really hate me, and it is just because where I live! We have a word for that here in hell, we call it bigotry, but that is "off topic" isn't it Oozi?

Which is the whole point of this thread, the "real topic". The real topic is this: "Get my point in, and find a way to make dissenting opinions "off topic"".

Can no one see this but me? If that is so, maybe I AM crazy. Anyway, I better get to the "fake topic" or I am going to be dismissed as "ignorant" and "childlike" for not "reading the OP"

(Oh, by the way, when they ask "Did you read the OP?" That is a veiled insult at your comprehension skills, which doesn't seem very "constructive" to me...but what do I know...I may be crazy.)

--"Fake Topic Alert!"--

So let's see, how to stay on topic without looking like an ass...Well that is easy! Don't agree with the OPer!

Seriously, "constructive discussion"? Who gets to define constructive? I mean in every discussion (with opposing viewpoints) one of the talkers will feel that the other is "not constructive". Who is right?

Are we talking about a mutual understanding in a discussion? That is fine and dandy if the talkers are talking in a mature manner, and not making a one sided thread.........



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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i was under the impression that the ATS forums & the threads started were designed as a form

of 'free association'... like random thoughts in a freeedom of speech context.

now, you are suggesting that all posters follow a type of pre-determined 'Form'
with which to submit replies...


sorry, i have enough 'Forms'... or standardized submissions in my life...
i'd much rather read honest, from the gut discourse
there are plenty of places to 'present essay papers', formal Debate presentations
that you think are of higher class...


think of the homespun, cowboy- philosopher Will Rogers www.brainyquote.com...



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Now this is classic back tracking!. The OP has been caught out post an anti-american agenda under the guise of a legitimate thread! The OP had no intention of helping others or actually using any of the advice on how to write a constructive post!. This can be seen by his blatant disregard for these "rules" in his previous posts!.

Once the game is exposed an attempt to back peddle is made whereby claiming others are causing the problems when it is just an attempt to save face!

This can only be described as very deceptive & an insult to the ATS community!. Public opinion in the thread has shown that many here agree with this view!

We have all had our say it is probably game over for all of us on this thread! There is really nothing left to talk about!





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