No one is saying all masons are evil!
But to use your allegory, if 30 bus drivers conspired to some terrorist act, and was using the bus company as a vessel for this terrorist act, would you not consider this a problem?
No that does not mean all bus drivers are evil or in on it, or that the bus company is.
No one serious about the Higher Echelon theory claims this to my knowledge.
The key argument is exactly that most masons are being used without their knowledge or direct involvement!

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Sorry to repeat this - but this does seem as though you are well versed in disinfo techiniques. Your reply insinuates that I have claimed that all masons are evil, and I really take issue with that. In fact, I believe you know very well that I have not. Frankly, I'm annoyed that my words keep getting twisted. If you can't read honestly what I've said, if you're going to insinuate things I've never said - just don't reply to me,because it's dishonest, and I'm not interested in dishonesty or disinfo stragegies. And frankly, the bus driver analogy is a non starter...the two things are so totally different any comparison is worthless.

It is possible that there is some small, secret group of men (that may or may not be Masons) that are responsible for a lot of evil political things. That does not mean that all Masons are involved, and it does not mean that the other 99% are either oblivious, or naive, or anything else. It only means that in any large organization there are going to be some bad apples.

I would assume the fraternity could be judged as a whole based on the actions of the 99% instead of the 1%.

You are, of course, free to make any assumptions you wish.

I can also speak from personal experience regarding 33rd Degree Masons, Grand York Rite High Priests (above Knight's Templar), Grand Masters, and many other lifelong and experienced Masons, and I have never met one that did not have the best of intentions.

Well, that's how many fraudsters work, they don't usually broadcast their ill intent. Many criminals can seem like very nice people when they want to - that's how ponzi schemes entrap people, for example.

If there is any small nefarious group, they would have to have support from these members in order to have any power whatsoever, and I guarantee that these guys would not support anything that wasn't explicitly charitable and fair.

Because they seem like nice guys! Ok!

Originally posted by Schrödinger
The key argument is exactly that most masons are being used without their knowledge or direct involvement!

Argument : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

Accusation : a charge of wrongdoing

These words....they mean different things.

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon

Originally posted by Schrödinger
The key argument is exactly that most masons are being used without their knowledge or direct involvement!

Argument : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

Accusation : a charge of wrongdoing

These words....they mean different things.

What is your problem?

Did I claim I made the argument? No I didn't I was REFERING to it.

If you want to have a meaningful conversation, you will stop acting like that, now!

The "problem" is people continue to lay this accusation, without really either understanding the structure of the organization nor being ever able to site evidence.

Like people talk about 33 degrees being in charge or high level, not understanding it's an honorific title. It's as logical as seeing a kid at a dept store picture in an employee of the week plaque and beleiving him to be the primary decision maker at the store. I understand how an outsider might just choose the highest "degree" number and decide that must be their leader. However when a so called previous insider makes such a statement it's just silly...and immediately let's us know the person in question is a fraud. It clearly shows any mason who has a remote understanding of the organization or any experience with the Scotish Rite connected to that dregree that the person is lying, and not even doing a good job at it. If any actual mason wanted to make up such a theory, and make it plausable that is not where they would point suspicion.

Moving past the statements that show an ignorance of both masonry, and how we are organized, there's the question of evidence. Even the best criminal organizations, or intelligence organizations slip up now and then, and some "expose" is written or cited showing how someone ordered someone to do do this or that. Yet there has never been such a case in masonry? If Masonry had such controls from it's leadership one would expect to find the slip ups now and then, where even masons would scratch their heads and go....."well I must say that is unusual." But even though we'd clearly be a much larger body then any intelligence organization, or any criminal organization, and are filled with members that have no such training, as it's an afterwork sort of place, somehow over hundreds of years there's no slips ups? No hardprint, or recordings? No one can put together who these shadow leaders are nor even find a reference to their commands?

An argument would cite plausable structure that fits with the organization, cite evidence, and/or people, and information exposed.

Instead we get symbolic doodle picture posts where someone see's black and white squares, or someone throw's up the horns for a "hook em horns" college band and it becomes a masonic conspiracy, and we're told that the people who are leading us are basically the people we give a "way to go good job at being a good mason" honorific title.

Ultimately if you detect a lack of respect or feel somehow the masons on here are always mocking the "accusations" it's because they're dissappointed....I think half the masons on here could make up a good masonic conspiracy and make it plausable if we so desired (and forgot our virtues). What we read however, the so called "expose" ex mason videos etc....just makes us want to giggle or roll our eyes....it's not even good lying.

The problem is refering to any of the anti-masonic attacks presented thus far on here as an "argument" is like saying someone is making a valid "argument" that the earth is flat because we never slide off of it. Their accusations....blind ones.

Wrong: we perfectly well understand the structure. You refuse on the other hand to understand the thesis.
We know very well, that Freemasonry, isn't the Top Echelon! We have said numerous times, that Freemasonry is the entry barrier to other secret societies, and it is the secret society structure as a whole that is being used!

That being said, it might very well be "honorary" degrees, but as Freemasons have confirmed; it is possible to give orders to people who have a lower degree. (I am not talking about the ethics involved in these orders, and I am assuming that all orders have to have a pure purpose, i.e. it has to do with education, or administration or perhaps logistics)

Originally posted by Schrödinger
I am perfectly well aware of the fact, that you cannot be ordered to go against your wows, or ethics.
That would not make sense at all!

You're right. It would not make sense. Yet people here claim it all the time, which is one of the reasons why we Masons participate in these forums...to make them think and see the illogic of their position. People tell us that we unknowingly worship the devil, and I ask, how can one unknowingly worship? Isn't that a contradiction? Isn't worship something done with intent? and in my heart, as I'm saying my prayer, if I'm directing my will and attention to the being that I believe created the universe, how could that be subverted?

Originally posted by Schrödinger
I learned this from you guys; In order to apply to the Scottish Rite or York Rite or Knights Templars or the Rose Order etc. You need to have become a Master Mason! Therefore according to what you have told me consistently over the years, Blue Lodge is the barrier of entry to the other societies.

Joining the Scottish or York Rites is, in my opinion, more of a lateral move then any type of advancement.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
And you have the basis to form an opinion on. However to outsiders it just seems hollow that its just an "honorary" degree. I am pretty sure there is a little something more to it

I understand your viewpoint. MY freind Dave runs the Scottish Rite for New Jersey and to be honest, he does command a lot of respect. Not because he is a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason, but due to the fact that he is always organizing events, pitching in at degrees and basically doing more then most members. The fact that he is a 33rd is more a product of his hard work then any type of backdoor dealings.

They command the respect of their fellow brethren, and might even be unofficial leaders and guides, in many ways.
Giving out advise and helping their lesser fortunate brothers. You know, on a rainy day etc

This is also true. I have seem my friend mentioned above pay for others dues, have them over for dinner, assist them in trying to locate a job, etc. This is nothing more then any friend should try to do for another and I have personally seem him do this for non-Masons.