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posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by wcitizen
 



I also believe it is possible that there are some branches of Freemasonry which are not decent and which do not have decent aims and goals. However, it is also clear that such groups of freemasons would be kept secret, and you guys wouldn't be informed of them...so although you are freemasons, you don't have the information to either allay or confirm my concerns


If some small, secret group of men are involved in some nefarious plot, it doesn't really reflect on the whole group does it? To go back to my bus driver analogy, if 20 or 30 bus drivers secretly meet somewhere and plot to take over the world, are we to assume that all bus drivers are evil, or that the only "real" bus drivers are the evil ones?

It is possible that there is some small, secret group of men (that may or may not be Masons) that are responsible for a lot of evil political things. That does not mean that all Masons are involved, and it does not mean that the other 99% are either oblivious, or naive, or anything else. It only means that in any large organization there are going to be some bad apples.

I would assume the fraternity could be judged as a whole based on the actions of the 99% instead of the 1%.

I can also speak from personal experience regarding 33rd Degree Masons, Grand York Rite High Priests (above Knight's Templar), Grand Masters, and many other lifelong and experienced Masons, and I have never met one that did not have the best of intentions. If there is any small nefarious group, they would have to have support from these members in order to have any power whatsoever, and I guarantee that these guys would not support anything that wasn't explicitly charitable and fair.




posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:29 PM
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No one is saying all masons are evil!
But to use your allegory, if 30 bus drivers conspired to some terrorist act, and was using the bus company as a vessel for this terrorist act, would you not consider this a problem?
No that does not mean all bus drivers are evil or in on it, or that the bus company is.
No one serious about the Higher Echelon theory claims this to my knowledge.
The key argument is exactly that most masons are being used without their knowledge or direct involvement!



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by Schrödinger
 


True, but I don't believe Masonry is the "vessel" that they are using to do their evil. Catholic Priests would be another example. The Priests truly are using their position of authority and protection of the church to do their evil. If there is any evil in Masonry, they are doing it outside the protection and knowledge of the craft, especially the upper echelon of the craft. Like I said, I have met, and in some cases befriended the uppermost portion of the Masonry in Florida, and they are extremely benevolent and dedicated to good works. There is no way that any evil would be done with their knowledge.

As you say, the bus drivers would be a cause for concern, because of their access to buses. The Priests are cause for extreme concern because of their access to children, and their protection from the church. Evil Masons are not in this class, because it would be necessary for them to hide their true agenda and deeds at all times, and maintaining close relationships to anyone in the Masonic fraternity would be basically impossible.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready




Sorry to repeat this - but this does seem as though you are well versed in disinfo techiniques. Your reply insinuates that I have claimed that all masons are evil, and I really take issue with that. In fact, I believe you know very well that I have not. Frankly, I'm annoyed that my words keep getting twisted. If you can't read honestly what I've said, if you're going to insinuate things I've never said - just don't reply to me,because it's dishonest, and I'm not interested in dishonesty or disinfo stragegies. And frankly, the bus driver analogy is a non starter...the two things are so totally different any comparison is worthless.


It is possible that there is some small, secret group of men (that may or may not be Masons) that are responsible for a lot of evil political things. That does not mean that all Masons are involved, and it does not mean that the other 99% are either oblivious, or naive, or anything else. It only means that in any large organization there are going to be some bad apples.

I would assume the fraternity could be judged as a whole based on the actions of the 99% instead of the 1%.

You are, of course, free to make any assumptions you wish.


I can also speak from personal experience regarding 33rd Degree Masons, Grand York Rite High Priests (above Knight's Templar), Grand Masters, and many other lifelong and experienced Masons, and I have never met one that did not have the best of intentions.

Well, that's how many fraudsters work, they don't usually broadcast their ill intent. Many criminals can seem like very nice people when they want to - that's how ponzi schemes entrap people, for example.


If there is any small nefarious group, they would have to have support from these members in order to have any power whatsoever, and I guarantee that these guys would not support anything that wasn't explicitly charitable and fair.


Because they seem like nice guys! Ok!
edit on 22-12-2010 by wcitizen because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


Well I actually feel I am getting led down a trail here.

I am not saying that masons are evil, nor am I saying that freemasonry is being used for evil.
I am saying that freemasonry is part of a secret society structure, where the top echelon of this structure is being used to manipulate and control the masses. Nothing more nothing less, Freemasons are sheep like the rest of us.



posted on Dec, 22 2010 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by Schrödinger
The key argument is exactly that most masons are being used without their knowledge or direct involvement!


Argument : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

Accusation : a charge of wrongdoing

These words....they mean different things.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by ForkandSpoon

Originally posted by Schrödinger
The key argument is exactly that most masons are being used without their knowledge or direct involvement!


Argument : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

Accusation : a charge of wrongdoing

These words....they mean different things.


What is your problem?

Did I claim I made the argument? No I didn't I was REFERING to it.

If you want to have a meaningful conversation, you will stop acting like that, now!



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:12 AM
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ALERT: If I sound hostile I don't mean to. I dealt with stupid people today so I'm in a very blunt mood.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 

So you're saying the kids force their parents to CHIP them?
Let me catch my breath


From my running the booths, coordinating the booths at events, and running the committee, I've never seen the "plant" used before. Maybe it has been used, who knows. I'm guessing you've never observed that though.

reply to post by T3hEn1337ened
 

If a parent decides not to do it we make no judgment on their parenting ability. It is a free service we provide to the parents at their discretion. Never do we coerce or pressure someone into doing it. This program doesn't protect a child from going missing or being abducted. It is a reactionary product to be used in the most urgent of emergencies.

Most CHIP committee run it the same. For each child a parent must fill out a consent form with the data needed to fill in for the child. Once the product is done (can vary from CD form to printed form; or both) the Mason tears off just the bottom of the form that has ONLY the PARENT'S name, signature, and date. The rest of the form with the data on it is given back to the parent to do what with it as they wish. Then the Mason pushes a "START OVER' button (or 'CLEAR ALL" in some cases) and ALL DATA IS ERASED. No data at any time is ever saved. To make it perfectly clear, no data is ever kept. The only thing tracked is the number of those processed. All of this I can assure you.

To say for the thousandth time, we are not a secret society. We are a private organization that has secrets. Secret societies hide their membership from everyone, we clearly don't. Secret societies hide their meeting location and times, we don't.

reply to post by Immortalgemini527
 

That is your opinion only.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:28 AM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 

Wouldn't it show that I'm not a man of my word if I broke my oaths? At the same time should Not telling you something is not lying. If you are not to be privy to information then its none of your business, plain and simple.

Please see previous post on why Freemasons are not a secret society.

Charitable/philanthropic organizations are never too old for their own good.

And I'm sure you can show examples of the Freemasons choking fair trade and business practice. I'll be waiting.

reply to post by Seventytwo
 

Seagoat? Is that like chicken of the sea?

reply to post by getreadyalready
 

Agreed. I have learned quite a bit here. Sometimes from postings, but most often it is looking up the allegations of the anti-Masons and then following that path of research.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 07:48 AM
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The "problem" is people continue to lay this accusation, without really either understanding the structure of the organization nor being ever able to site evidence.

Like people talk about 33 degrees being in charge or high level, not understanding it's an honorific title. It's as logical as seeing a kid at a dept store picture in an employee of the week plaque and beleiving him to be the primary decision maker at the store. I understand how an outsider might just choose the highest "degree" number and decide that must be their leader. However when a so called previous insider makes such a statement it's just silly...and immediately let's us know the person in question is a fraud. It clearly shows any mason who has a remote understanding of the organization or any experience with the Scotish Rite connected to that dregree that the person is lying, and not even doing a good job at it. If any actual mason wanted to make up such a theory, and make it plausable that is not where they would point suspicion.

Moving past the statements that show an ignorance of both masonry, and how we are organized, there's the question of evidence. Even the best criminal organizations, or intelligence organizations slip up now and then, and some "expose" is written or cited showing how someone ordered someone to do do this or that. Yet there has never been such a case in masonry? If Masonry had such controls from it's leadership one would expect to find the slip ups now and then, where even masons would scratch their heads and go....."well I must say that is unusual." But even though we'd clearly be a much larger body then any intelligence organization, or any criminal organization, and are filled with members that have no such training, as it's an afterwork sort of place, somehow over hundreds of years there's no slips ups? No hardprint, or recordings? No one can put together who these shadow leaders are nor even find a reference to their commands?

An argument would cite plausable structure that fits with the organization, cite evidence, and/or people, and information exposed.

Instead we get symbolic doodle picture posts where someone see's black and white squares, or someone throw's up the horns for a "hook em horns" college band and it becomes a masonic conspiracy, and we're told that the people who are leading us are basically the people we give a "way to go good job at being a good mason" honorific title.

Ultimately if you detect a lack of respect or feel somehow the masons on here are always mocking the "accusations" it's because they're dissappointed....I think half the masons on here could make up a good masonic conspiracy and make it plausable if we so desired (and forgot our virtues). What we read however, the so called "expose" ex mason videos etc....just makes us want to giggle or roll our eyes....it's not even good lying.

The problem is refering to any of the anti-masonic attacks presented thus far on here as an "argument" is like saying someone is making a valid "argument" that the earth is flat because we never slide off of it. Their accusations....blind ones.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 08:07 AM
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Wrong: we perfectly well understand the structure. You refuse on the other hand to understand the thesis.
We know very well, that Freemasonry, isn't the Top Echelon! We have said numerous times, that Freemasonry is the entry barrier to other secret societies, and it is the secret society structure as a whole that is being used!

That being said, it might very well be "honorary" degrees, but as Freemasons have confirmed; it is possible to give orders to people who have a lower degree. (I am not talking about the ethics involved in these orders, and I am assuming that all orders have to have a pure purpose, i.e. it has to do with education, or administration or perhaps logistics)



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason

reply to post by Seventytwo
 


Seagoat? Is that like chicken of the sea?



Only a great Alchemist could transform a Goat into a chicken.

I bow my head to you sir



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 08:46 AM
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reply to post by Schrödinger
 

Too many don't understand the structure. So many see the numbered system of the Scottish Rite and assume it means hierarchy, I'm not saying you do, but many others do. It is not only a slap in the face of the Grand Master and their rule over the sovereignty of their jurisdiction, but also that of the other independent branches such as the Shriners or York Rite. This slap in the face is included in the "entry barrier" hypothesis as it still under cuts the leadership.

Plus it wouldn't really work as our leadership is continually changing as we annually (in some every 3-years) elect new leadership. Also, you have failed to prove that your allegations are correct. Freemasonry is too much of a confederate system for it to be a entry barrier.

If a 33rd came up to me and told me to do something just because he was a 33rd I would tell him to stuff it (in the nicest way possible). Scottish Rite has only authority over Scottish Rite Masons and in the capacity of their position. Same goes for the York Rite in relation to the Blue Lodge. When I was High Priest of the Royal Arch my Treasurer is also a Past Master, Grand Lodge officer, Grand Commander of the Idaho Knights Templar, and Past Governor of my York Rite College, but I was allowed to give him orders (to include in Templar meetings as we elect the same person to be Treasurer in all 3 main York Rite bodies) as he is in the capacity of Treasurer.

Plus the most I have ever been ordered to do is jump in last minute into a committee to help or sit as the Grand Secretary/Recorder during the Joint Session of the Annual Session of the Grand York Rite. I mean, I haven't received a snuff order yet or anything. In Idaho I probably am the youngest who sits in as many bodies as I do, but yet I have not seen some sinister secret or some higher echelon. i did miss the Grand Assembly of the York Rite Sovereign College of North America...hmmmm....maybe it was there I would have found out. Like I said, there are far too many independent pieces (still bound to the Blue Lodge of course) for it to be an entry barrier.

reply to post by Seventytwo
 

edit on 23-12-2010 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


Thank you for your reply, and you are right, to many think that 33rd degree Scottish Rite Freemasons are the Evil Puppet Masters of the Illuminati.

However, I disagree when you say that I have failed to prove that Freemasonry is an entry barrier to other secret societies, because it is.
I learned this from you guys; In order to apply to the Scottish Rite or York Rite or Knights Templars or the Rose Order etc. You need to have become a Master Mason! Therefore according to what you have told me consistently over the years, Blue Lodge is the barrier of entry to the other societies.

I agree with you when you say that the leadership changes in the lodge, therefore a lodge in it self is not a tool in this agenda, where I personally believe the "sour apples" starts to be found, is in the other societies, when people advance.
And I also do not believe you worship the devil or sacrifice children. It is not about it, I have a theory about widespread nepotism. That is really my beef with the "Higher Echelon"

Someone wrote a really good reply to me last night, and it have made me think.
You aren't keeping the secrets because people aren't allowed to know the truth.
You are keeping the secrets, because people don't want to know, and if you blatantly told everyone, their world picture would collapse, and they would probably burn you at the state, for enlightening them!

One of my reservations regarding orders, where exactly that it would have to serve a legitimate purpose, that being in regard to something you need to study, or perhaps some practical help in relation to an open house meeting at the lodge or something, I am perfectly well aware of the fact, that you cannot be ordered to go against your wows, or ethics.
That would not make sense at all!



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Schrödinger
I am perfectly well aware of the fact, that you cannot be ordered to go against your wows, or ethics.
That would not make sense at all!
You're right. It would not make sense. Yet people here claim it all the time, which is one of the reasons why we Masons participate in these forums...to make them think and see the illogic of their position. People tell us that we unknowingly worship the devil, and I ask, how can one unknowingly worship? Isn't that a contradiction? Isn't worship something done with intent? and in my heart, as I'm saying my prayer, if I'm directing my will and attention to the being that I believe created the universe, how could that be subverted?



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Well prayer is a whole different metaphysical debate. Personally I do not believe that the "source" hears our prayers, well I do not even believe our "source" is self-aware, to be self-aware you will need an ego, and the "source" in my world-view has no ego.
Therefore I believe that when most pray, they are simply redirecting energy to their higher-selves i.e. the soul.
However I also believe that you could channel your energy to a fallen angel, a demon, you could in theory also do this unwillingly, at lets say unholy ground, or in a building specifically made for channeling energy to a specific entity or being.

I also believe that Lucifer is simply a title, just as Christ, Elohim, Satan, Angel etc. is a title.

Well I am really derailing now, my own belief prohibits me from prayer, so I guess I am not in the target group anyways, of the unaware channeling/praying business


End Note: I also do not believe you are worshiping the devil and channeling energy in his direction. My best friend is a mason, and he doesn't even pray



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by Schrödinger
I learned this from you guys; In order to apply to the Scottish Rite or York Rite or Knights Templars or the Rose Order etc. You need to have become a Master Mason! Therefore according to what you have told me consistently over the years, Blue Lodge is the barrier of entry to the other societies.


Joining the Scottish or York Rites is, in my opinion, more of a lateral move then any type of advancement.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 10:53 AM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Yes I know you say that


And you have the basis to form an opinion on. However to outsiders it just seems hollow that its just an "honorary" degree. I am pretty sure there is a little something more to it


Do you know that there are two forms of authority?
The official and the unofficial.
Officially it is just an "honorary" degree, unofficially I am assuming and speculating that it is a bit more, though not something outrageous!

They command the respect of their fellow brethren, and might even be unofficial leaders and guides, in many ways.
Giving out advise and helping their lesser fortunate brothers. You know, on a rainy day etc



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by Schrödinger
 


In the eyes of the Fraternity, a 3 degree and a 33 degree Mason are no different. Once a man becomes a Master Mason he is an equal amongst the Brethren. The 33 degree is an honorary title a Mason is given in the Scottish Rite for a lifetime of contributions to the Craft. They should be respected amongst other Brothers not because they hold rank or office above Blue Lodge Masons, but because of their dedication to their Oaths, and living a Masonic way of life.

I've had the privilege of meeting and holding conversations with several 33* Masons in my district and all I can say is that they are true gentlemen and the ultimate role models. Not one inkling of a feeling that they thought they were better than me because of their degrees in the Scottish Rite, no demands made that I respect them any differently than I offer my respects to any other Brother Masons, they were just all around cool guys.

Any way, I know I'm repeating things that you already "know". Take it for what it's worth though, as these are the views of a Mason who is presenting this to you through my own experiences, and not the assumptions made by people who have never even met a real 33* Mason before. Strait from the horses mouth so to say.



posted on Dec, 23 2010 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by Schrödinger
And you have the basis to form an opinion on. However to outsiders it just seems hollow that its just an "honorary" degree. I am pretty sure there is a little something more to it


I understand your viewpoint. MY freind Dave runs the Scottish Rite for New Jersey and to be honest, he does command a lot of respect. Not because he is a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason, but due to the fact that he is always organizing events, pitching in at degrees and basically doing more then most members. The fact that he is a 33rd is more a product of his hard work then any type of backdoor dealings.


They command the respect of their fellow brethren, and might even be unofficial leaders and guides, in many ways.
Giving out advise and helping their lesser fortunate brothers. You know, on a rainy day etc


This is also true. I have seem my friend mentioned above pay for others dues, have them over for dinner, assist them in trying to locate a job, etc. This is nothing more then any friend should try to do for another and I have personally seem him do this for non-Masons.





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