The High-jacked Forum

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thank you for your reply, it have really been an eye opener, and I have been projecting something onto the secret societies.

I will answer your post in full, I just need a couple of hours to digest it!

I have 2 corrections.

1: I do not believe that the Freemasons have the whole truth, but I do believe they have a few keys!
2: I am fully aware of the complementarities in micro/macrocosm. (Ergo your body is your temple) I apparently just need some more time to implement it fully

Ok I will admit that I was sarcastic, however it was not meant in a personal way, relaying tone and conjectures can be difficult.
I will take that on my cape.


Lets say I make a thread about the Symbolism in Freemasonry here on ATS.

Within hours it is flooded with posts by Freemasons, first claiming that it has all been debunked, then they continue to joke around internally, ask other questions perhaps about the next lodge meeting, or something totally irrelevant to the OP.
Thats hijacking, thats derailing, thats off-topic!

Originally posted by Schrödinger
Lets say I make a thread about the Symbolism in Freemasonry here on ATS.

Within hours it is flooded with posts by Freemasons, first claiming that it has all been debunked, then they continue to joke around internally, ask other questions perhaps about the next lodge meeting, or something totally irrelevant to the OP.
Thats hijacking, thats derailing, thats off-topic!

The refuatations, if any, would not be about the symbolism, but about your interperatation of them and what context they may be applied. For example, not all checkered floors are Masonic or mean that a Mason put them there. The current Christmas photo thread is a good example.

It is a black and white floor; does that automatically make it a Masonic floor? I have a black and white floor in my kitchen, it came with the house, does it make my house or kitchen Masonic? Maybe it is there because it is an eye pleasing pattern. While my statement is speculative, so are almost all others about symbolism and their context.

reply to post by Schrödinger


I have to admit that I have learned a great deal about Freemasonry on ATS. Many times it comes from informed Masons like Augustus Masonicus, but sometimes it also comes from well-read non-Masons.

I also have my own doubts and suspicions about all the secrets of Freemasonry, and I just saw a post in another thread that summed it up pretty well. Even in our own Degree work, we often allude to the fact that many of the ancient secrets have been lost and may never be recovered. When one is passed to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason, he is informed that he does not yet have all the Secrets of Freemasonry, and he may never have.

I think it is a personal journey for each Mason, and the knowledge is there to be gained, but one has to seek it out from many sources and then be particularly savvy at connecting all the dots. I am not there yet, but I have had the privilege of learning things and then taking them back to my lodge as "Masonic Education."

I still disagree that it results in "derailing" a topic. Most of the things I have ever learned in my life came from somebody I disagreed with. There is very little to learn from those that agree with you.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Schrödinger

 

I have to admit that I have learned a great deal about Freemasonry on ATS. Many times it comes from informed Masons like Augustus Masonicus, but sometimes it also comes from well-read non-Masons.

Has he taught you that in Florida you are just as dry as in NC?

I agree that a lot of what I learned came from here. Life in the blue lodge can get all caught up in business. Talking on a masonic forum gets a bit boring since everyone usually agrees with what you have to say. But here, you can have one little sliver of information posted that sparks an interest and spend hours searching for more information and learn a great deal. Sadly, you have to wade through a lot of brown stinky stuff to get to it.

I haven't had time to read through all the posts in this thread but, I would like to add:

It does seem that there is a group of Masons who decend on any thread regarding the Masons and conspiracy theories about their order.

At least this group is open and up-front about their affiliations and doesn't try to go sneaking around when they work to debunk anti-Masonic threads. Most you can tell by their user names, avatars or they even come right out and tell you they are Masons in their posts.

The way I see it is they are working to defend their organization from what they see as disinformation being spread about their order and this is admirable IMO. I see what they do as being much the same as what I do when I see a thread unjustly attacking the Catholic Church. They come in with clarifying information from what they know about the order and their own personal experiences in the order.

These guys have cleared up some of my own misconceptions regarding the Mason's in the past and I believe they are sincere in their belief that there is nothing sinister about their organization. I don't know what level of Masons these guys are and it could be possible that they aren't privy to some of the order's darker secrets (if there are any) but, I believe that the Masons who post here are sincere in their belief that the order is benevolent.

reply to post by network dude


Yep, very dry! We can't even rent the Lodge to a group that wants to drink. We can't even rent the adjoining ground to a group that wants to drink! Very sad, but it does help drive up membership into the Shriners! Blue Lodge is all business and Shrine Temple is all party!

reply to post by wcitizen


Put any kind of twist on it you want, my friend.

What I don't give a crap about is the same old song that anti-masons keep singing. I'd like to point out that so many of the Brothers who patronize this forum have gone to extensive lengths to shed light on many of the genuinely pure discussions surrounding Freemasonry. Many people have asked honest questions of Freemason members on ATS and have received their answers.

I'd also like to say, IMO only, that no matter what the claims of the original post or the personal feelings of any one person about a thread topic really means nothing. The forum mods will decide what is on or off topic, thats their job. So to say that any Freemason or the small group of Masons who are members of ATS is(are) intentionally derailing any threads is poppycock. When the subject matter is about the very Brotherhood we belong to is it a far stretch of the imagination to think we might have something to say about it? The lies and internet rumors that have been spread are not the truth of Freemasonry. Are there people who have been masons who have also been involved in other groups during history, sure. Are there 'bad masons', well theres a bad everything so, sure. That certainly doesn't mean Freemasonry is a Satanic cult, and it definitely doesn't make us the NWO.

So why would we sit back and watch people believe those spoon fed media lies when we have the ability and the knowledge to tell people the truth. Sadly enough for me to say but most of the material about ritual aspects and things that take place behind the Closed Doors of a Tiled Lodge can be found with a thorough google search. Much of it can even be found at official Masonic sights if you really want to find it. So why this fixation on our secrecy? Many of the brothers including myself will tell (and have told others) you that the only tangible secrets of Freemasonry certain grips and certain words that no Mason will speak to a non member and that we will not violate the trust of our Brethren. Other than that it's mostly business meetings and votes to pay bills. The symbolism that Masonry uses is open to interpretation by all people with access to the internet, or the willingness to walk to a Masonic Lodge and many of us take an interest in openly discussing it! But still you choose to demonize us.

It really is about living in harmony. We are a Brotherhood of Man, all of us. No matter what I say your mind has already been made up, there for I do not care to try and change it. Your free to your opinions however distorted they are. Just remember that I am free to mine.


--Amongst Men no contention should ever exist except for that noble contention, or rather emulation, of who can best work and best agree.--

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I have to admit that I have learned a great deal about Freemasonry on ATS. Many times it comes from informed Masons like Augustus Masonicus, but sometimes it also comes from well-read non-Masons.

Thank you, I am very flattered. I have also learned much here from members such as Masonic Light, Senrak, JoshNorton and TrintyMan.

But the person I took the most from was networkdude who taught me that my deliciously malted 'smart juice' was wat really seperated me from those guys in North Carolina.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus



Fair point, and you are correct. It is no longer an exclusive masonic symbol, as it has been integrated into allot of different buildings and architectural structures. Though I still believe that it is important in masonic symbolism. But as you say it does not make everything checkered masonic.

reply to post by getreadyalready


"Most of the things I have ever learned in my life came from somebody I disagreed with. There is very little to learn from those that agree with you."

This is absolutely true to me as well.

I do feel that I can no longer be objective on this matter, I have to much history, and is clearly biased towards this.
Nevertheless, I have a clear idea that this derailment have gone to long.
It is admirable that the masons try to deny ignorance, en enlighten us.
However this is a conspiracy forum about secret societies.
It makes absolutely no sense that you keep on insisting that we document everything with proof, and if we cannot document it with proof, you say that everything in the theory is unsubstantiated, undocumented and unproven.

But if everything was substantiated, documented and proven, it would no longer be a conspiracy THEORY!

Originally posted by Schrödinger
But if everything was substantiated, documented and proven, it would no longer be a conspiracy THEORY!

Well, this particular use of the word theory is probably incorrect. It would be more accurate to call them Conspiracy Hypotheses, but nobody's going to do that...
OED "Theory" def 6: A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion.

While we should be using the OED "Hypothesis" def 3: A supposition or conjecture put forth to account for known facts; esp. in the sciences, a provisional supposition from which to draw conclusions that shall be in accordance with known facts, and which serves as a starting-point for further investigation by which it may be proved or disproved and the true theory arrived at.

We more often find def 4a and 4b: A supposition in general; something supposed or assumed to be true without proof or conclusive evidence; an assumption; Hence spec. A groundless or insufficiently grounded supposition; a mere assumption or guess.

The theories presented here should be, if not proven, at least something upon which a search for truth can be built. If the holes in a theory are too obvious, there's really not any point in continuing that line of research, is there?

reply to post by JoshNorton


Well if you are talking in a scientific context of theory, then yes, I have not seen a single scientific theory on secret societies on these forums, ever.

But if we don't use the scientific meaning of the word theory, then it should be fair to call it just that; theories.

In a scientific context I absolutely agree, that the best articles I have seen have been hypothesis, and the worst around the state of a postulate.


"The theories presented here should be, if not proven, at least something upon which a search for truth can be built."


This is where I must disagree!
We are allowed to discuss if pink unicorns exists in a parallel dimension, unaccessible by our univers.
If thats what we want.

But the standard these days is that we are flooded by people insisting on proof, and if they cannot have it, they claim that its impossible.

Why can't we discuss if an unknown body controls the top of the secret society structure without backing it up with proof?
What is so dangerous to us discussing this?
I mean it is obvious what you think of us, we are stupid, silly, morons, madmen, but so what?
Let us debate it in peace!

Do you see me flooding your masonic forums?
No you don't

When in Rome, do as the Romans.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
This is where I must disagree!
We are allowed to discuss if pink unicorns exists in a parallel dimension, unaccessible by our univers.
If thats what we want.

But the standard these days is that we are flooded by people insisting on proof, and if they cannot have it, they claim that its impossible.

Why can't we discuss if an unknown body controls the top of the secret society structure without backing it up with proof?
What is so dangerous to us discussing this?
I mean it is obvious what you think of us, we are stupid, silly, morons, madmen, but so what?
Let us debate it in peace!

Do you think you'd have any more success starting threads in David Icke's forums claiming that pink unicorns existing in a parallel dimension control the top of the secret society structure? Sure, you're free to say that. I'm not going to stop you. But do you think such a statement would work any better in an audience that wasn't full of skeptical Masons? Or would the die-hard conspiracy theorists over at Icke (who even believe in shape-shifting reptiles) laugh you out of the room as well?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by wcitizen

 

So odd that 2 people have now attacked my post by claiming that I used some type of "technique." I only posted that I thought it was a win-win-win for the Freemasons, the Conspiracy Theorists, and ATS by having a forum where people can post their most off the wall and "silly" fears of Freemasons, and then Freemasons could come on here and share their personal experiences and "REAL" knowledge of the craft. I didn't attack any single person, and the most disparaging thing I did was use the word "silly," when I could have used ridiculous, off-the-wall, or just plain stupid, but I tried to keep it light.

I stand by my post. All the research in the world does not compare to first-hand real world experience.

Knock and it shall be open unto you. Ask and you shall receive.

The Masons are here. Ask us anything. When the answers are not interesting enough for you, I suppose you can continue on making up whatever satisfies your fantasies, but hopefully the more logical and intelligent folks will see questions asked and answered and then move on to other topics.

I hope the forum does not die completely, but if the traffic to it is dying down, it is probably because we have "denied ignorance," and gotten the truth out. Still seems like a win-win-win to me, but I suppose there will still be a couple of people that will attack this post, because it does not satisfy their fantasy.

Thanks for the reply, but I won't be participating further in the thread. The discussion, for me at least, is pointless. I have already said countless times on here that I don't doubt that most of the masons who participate in these threads are decent guys.

I also believe it is possible that there are some branches of Freemasonry which are not decent and which do not have decent aims and goals. However, it is also clear that such groups of freemasons would be kept secret, and you guys wouldn't be informed of them...so although you are freemasons, you don't have the information to either allay or confirm my concerns

Personally, I would be very concerned if some some branches of an organisation I was considering joining had the reputation for corruption and evil which some branches of freemasonry, firghtly or wrongly, do have, without any means of properly checking it out .... but each to their own.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Do you think you'd have any more success starting threads in David Icke's forums claiming that pink unicorns existing in a parallel dimension control the top of the secret society structure? Sure, you're free to say that. I'm not going to stop you. But do you think such a statement would work any better in an audience that wasn't full of skeptical Masons? Or would the die-hard conspiracy theorists over at Icke (who even believe in shape-shifting reptiles) laugh you out of the room as well?

edit on 2010.12.22 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)

Not sure, I might though

I don't see that reptilian shape-shifters are more plausible than pink unicorns existing in a parallel dimension.
I think it is implausible that pink unicorns aren't existing somewhere in the multitude and infinite dimensions I am sure exists. Do they exist in our universe? They could, why are you so sure that there aren't any pink unicorns somewhere in our universe?

You are avoiding my point though!

Why can't we discuss the premise of a secret society structure that we have not seen? A thought of Higher Echelon invisible to the people?
What is so bad about this?
Why do you have to insist filling up our threads with posts denying our hypothesis?

I have known you and your brethren's opinion on this matter for 8 years now, it has not changed the slightest!
Whilst you might disagree internally in closed u2u's you clearly have a consensus here on the secret society forums, when it comes to an unseen higher echelon.

There is no reason really to keep repeating it!

Or does a lie told often enough becomes the truth?

Originally posted by W3RLIED2

I agree that we are a brotherhood of man...all of us. No, my mind isn't made up. There have over decades, centuries even, been many concerns raised by many people about the freemasons. As far as I am concerned these concerns have never been addressed.

I believe it is possible that there is, at the top of the pyramid, things could go on which the rest of the 'ordinary' freemasons would not be aware of. Things which are dark and work against the brotherhood of man. There is a secrot power wrecking our world, they have infiltrated everywhere...so to think that they might also have infiltrated freemasonry doesn't take much of a leap of the imagination.

In the discussions I have seen on this site, there are some who are willing to share their experience, which, of course, is positive.. However, any suggestion that there might be another side to freemasonry, aspects of ithe organisation which even you are unaware of,and which is evil and corrupt, is very often met with derision, or just a statement of faith that it isn't so. I've yet to see one freemason even concede that it could, conceivably be true. or even that honestly, they just don't know. That is why I spoke of denail.

So, as I've already said - I'm not going to participate in the discussion any further. I am replying to the post you sent me, but I feel the discussion is pointless. You say my mind is made up - but the salient point for me is that my concerns and questions remain unanswered.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
You are avoiding my point though!

Nope. Merely trying to understand it.I guess my question is, is there (or should there be) a threshold of plausibility relevant to the topics of a forum as a whole, or a thread in particular, below which meaningful discussion is wasted? It's my personal opinion that the number of unhelpful "what if" questions far eclipses the number of useful "what if" questions that lead to new advances in knowledge. I'm wondering if you're saying that no such test belongs here?

post by wcitizen

So, as I've already said - I'm not going to participate in the discussion any further. I am replying to the post you sent me, but I feel the discussion is pointless. You say my mind is made up - but the salient point for me is my concerns and questions aren't addressed, nor can they be by ordinary masons.

Well, then you've pretty much wasted all of our time.

Every point you made was addressed. Every question you asked was answered.

Time and time again we've agreed to tell you anything you want to know about Freemasonry EXCEPT the grips and passwords, which are not really secrets but tests of our integrity.

If this thread was started and abandoned, then I'd say it was pretty much trolling.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Ah ha, I see your point now.

Well on most forums I would say that there should be!
But I think these forums are the exception, we should be allowed to speculate more freely here, and make a postulate for the sake of argument or to try and form a thesis.

But your point is more than valid, and I can see that I might have a double standard here, thank you for pointing that out!